Will it be the virus that takes Trump down?

[Boges]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

The Dems were on board with McConnell's bill, until Nancy Pelosi said she wasn't then they changed their mind and held it up.

Cite. 

Regardless it's a bi-cameral system. The House has an equal say on what bill goes to the POTUS as the Senate does. 

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

Regardless it's a bi-cameral system. The House has an equal say on what bill goes to the POTUS as the Senate does. 

Goal post moving. Of course it's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean they didn't hold up the bill. I never said they weren't allowed to hold it up, I said they held it up. Then you move the goal posts to "yeah, but they did it for a good reason", and when I shot that down as obviously false you moved the goal posts to "yeah, but they had every right to do it, bi-cameral system".

Cognitive dissonance is helluva drug. No matter how many shitty excuses you make for Democrats that get shot down, they'll always be another shitty excuse so you can blame Republicans instead. Never ending goal post moving, the sign of a person scrambling to lie to themselves to keep their delusional worldview intact.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

9 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Goal post moving. Of course it's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean they didn't hold up the bill. I never said they weren't allowed to hold it up, I said they held it up. Then you move the goal posts to but they did it for a good reason, and when I shot that down as obviously false you moved the goal posts to yeah but they had every right to do it, bi-cameral system.

Cognitive dissonance is helluva drug. No matter how many shitty excuses you make for Democrats that get shot down, they'll always be another shitty excuse so you can blame Republicans instead. Never ending goal post moving, the sign of a person scrambling to lie to themselves to keep their delusional worldview intact.

They didn't like what was in McConnell's bill. They worked together to get a bill both parties could stomach. That's how politics should work. How is that moving the goalposts? 

He moved the goalposts when he refused to even entertain having confirmation hearings on an Obama SCOTUS nominee. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Boges

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

They didn't like what was in McConnell's bill. They worked together to get a bill both parties could stomach, that's how politics should work. How is that moving the goalposts? 

He moved the goalposts when he refused to even entertain having confirmation hearings on an Obama SCOTUS nominee. 

Changing the subject, another goal post mover, like I said never ending.

Your original position was "they didn't obstruct the bill, the Republicans did", and then you changed it to "Okay the Democrats obstructed it, but they did it for good reasons", and then you changed it to "Okay, they didn't do it for good reasons, but they are allowed to do it anyway", and then you changed it to "Yeah, my previous post is besides the point, but here's a situation where the Republicans obstructed, so it's okay for the Democrats to obstruct too".

Anything to give the Democrats a pass for obstructing important legislation during a national emergency, what's your next goal post moving excuse for them?

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Changing the subject, another goal post mover, like I said never ending.

Your original position was "they didn't obstruct the bill, the Republicans did", and then you changed it to "Okay the Democrats obstructed it, but they did it for good reasons", and then you changed it to "Okay, they didn't do it for good reasons, but they are allowed to do it anyway", and then you changed it to "Yeah okay that's besides the point, but here's a situation where the Republicans obstructed, so it's okay for the Democrats to obstruct too".

Anything to give the Democrats a pass for obvious partisan hackery, what's your next goal post moving excuse for them?

My initial post was that Pelosi wasn't holding anything up. She's in a different chamber. The idea that she should have taken McConnell's bill and ran with it, without question, is completely laughable, and anti-democratic. 

[Rue]

28 minutes ago, Boges said:

Corporations don't need the help here, they've been sitting on stockpiles of cash since the recovery started. The people who are losing their jobs en masse need it. 

Bullshit. Don't just make stuff up.

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, Boges said:

My initial post was that Pelosi wasn't holding anything up. She's in a different chamber. The idea that she should have taken McConnell's bill and ran with it, without question, is completely laughable, and anti-democratic. 

Then he goes with a strawman. Pelosi held the bill up, after she voiced her concerns Schumer and the Democrats changed their mind and voted against the McConnell's bill.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

Bullshit. Don't just make stuff up.

He'd rather the poor were poorer, provided the rich were less rich. He'll make anything up to cling to that worldview too, cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Bullshit. Don't just make stuff up.

Citation 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/07/19/us-corporate-cash-pile-1-84-million-says-moodys-doesnt-matter-a-darn-not-even-apples-stash/#683c568e3374

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Then he goes with a strawman. Pelosi held the bill up, after she voiced her concerns Schumer and the Democrats changed their mind and voted against the McConnell's bill.

As she should have. Regardless, the House would have had a say on what bill goes to the POTUS. 

[Rue]

22 hours ago, godzilla said:

this article is a must read as it identifies specifically what was discussed earlier in this thread. whether Trump, the authoritarian leader, would take the bull by the horns and run with this opportunity for absolute federal power.

Trump Is an Authoritarian Weakman

"Coronavirus would be the perfect opportunity for an autocrat. Trump isn’t taking it."

"But the stylistic question—how much ability Trump has to tailor his brand of politics to fit new circumstances and meet new demands—may well have been settled decisively in this crisis. The answer is no."

i'm proposing that this puts him in a weak position going into the election cycle. it was either all in or not.

 

So you want to criticize Trump as a bully totalitarian then also say he isn't one? Which one is it. I am the first to say to challenge him when I disagree with him and support him when I do. ou want it both ways and only point out what he does wrong?

I call bullshit. The article you povided is partisan and repudiated even by anti Trump people.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

He'd rather the poor were poorer, provided the rich were less rich.

Your simplistic view on politics is amusing. 

The poor are the first to lose their jobs. They're the ones that are scrambling to make bill payments next Wednesday. 

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, Boges said:

As she should have. Regardless, the House would have had a say on what bill goes to the POTUS. 

Yeah then she should have made the changes in the House, instead of getting Schumer to hold it up in the Senate. If the Republicans obstructed the bill at that point, it then would have been on Republicans, but right now, it's 100% on the Democrats.

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

Your simplistic view on politics is amusing. 

The poor are the first to lose their jobs. They're the ones that are scrambling to make bill payments next Wednesday. 

Right and helping the rich doesn't hurt the poor. You support delaying the poor getting what they need to make sure the rich don't get as much help. Your claims of being pro-poor instead of anti-rich are obviously malarkey, or you wouldn't hold that stance, especially in a national emergency where the poor need the help ASAP.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Rue]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

Citation 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/07/19/us-corporate-cash-pile-1-84-million-says-moodys-doesnt-matter-a-darn-not-even-apples-stash/#683c568e3374

Can you please read the damn article...

"Therefore, yes, we record the money as sitting in the corporation. But it's not actually, it's out there funding the rest of the economy, as it has to be. People, not even tech companies, do not just sit on cash. It's out there working for a living. Further, yes, I know, it "isn't in America," except very large amounts of it are. It might all sit in a corporate account marked "Bermuda" or "Cayman Islands" but that corporate account is investing the money into US bonds and bills and notes, inside the US economy. It's the ownership of the money which is outside the US, not the actual money nor investments themselves.

There may be reasons why a corporate cash pile is a sign of something wrong in corporate America. But that the money is doing nothing, is not circulating, isn't one of them."

[Rue]

17 minutes ago, Boges said:

Your simplistic view on politics is amusing. 

The poor are the first to lose their jobs. They're the ones that are scrambling to make bill payments next Wednesday. 

Your simplistic view on money in bank accounts of how economic activity relates to the very health of people you claim to be concerned about is not amusing, From the LA Times I extract his, for the full article go to: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-03-24/op-ed-how-to-balance-saving-lives-with-saving-the-economy-in-the-time-of-coronavirus...its basically what Y is arguing and I have and it does not make us anti or pro Trump-its about talking about  understanding the crucial importance of economic transactions in the overall fabric of maintaining life as we know it.

 

Countries have arrested the virus with a mix of relatively brief but severe restrictions on travel and output (China), and extensive testing and quarantines for those who are ill, with fewer economic restrictions (South Korea.)

Some of each of these will apply here, in varying degrees according to the geographic area and the industry. We should assess these tools — and the expected costs and benefits — less like politicians or Republicans or Democrats, and more like economists

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Rue

[Boges]

7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Right and helping the rich doesn't hurt the poor. You support delaying the poor getting what they need to make sure the rich don't get as much help. Your claims of being pro-poor instead of anti-rich are obviously malarkey, or you wouldn't hold that stance, especially in a national emergency where the poor need the help ASAP.

I think the Bill that was agreed upon will have cheques sent to everyone. So I'm not sure what you're all pissy about. 

Andrew Yang gets his wish. 

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

I think the Bill that was agreed upon will have cheques sent to everyone. So I'm not sure what you're all pissy about. 

Andrew Yang gets his wish. 

I complaining about it getting held up, when speed matters and the poor need the money ASAP, and the changes aren't so important that delaying it for days is worth the costs, especially to the poor.

This could have been passed days ago if it weren't for Democrats obstructing, mostly because they didn't get enough pet funding for shit with nothing to do with Coronavirus crammed into the bill, trying to exploit a crisis to ram through shit that would never get passed otherwise, as that is what changed when they finally decide to vote for it.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I complaining about it getting held up, when speed matters and the poor need the money ASAP, and the changes aren't so important that delaying it for days is worth the costs, especially to the poor. This could have been passed days ago if it weren't for Democrats obstructing.

So your issue is that the Dems wanted some level of collaboration in the process. You do know that they control one of the houses of congress right. 

A week to get a bill passed is actually lightening fast. 

[Guest]

It looks like it's getting held up for a while.  From the Guardian:  Maybe he's changed his mind by now, of course.

The US House of representatives is set to pass a $2.2tn package later Friday to ease the coronavirus pandemic’s devastating toll on the economy and healthcare system following a 96-0 vote in the Senate, though the actions of a single lawmaker could delay proceedings by several hours.

Kentucky Representative Thomas Massie, who has voiced his opposition the bill, has threatened to demand a roll call vote, which would hold up passage until most lawmakers return to Washington for a vote, prompting backlash at a time when Americans have been urged to self-quarantine or maintain distance from one another.

[Rue]

Partisan issues did get thrown in and you can spin it any way you want but the Democrats who I side with have not been angels.

[Boges]

I think for both Canada and the US, any "bailout" of corporations or employers should be geared towards keeping their staff employed. So they don't add to the already overwhelmed EI claims both nations are experiencing. A No-Questions-Asked cash injection to a corporation does nothing to help the economy if they're still going to layoff staff if revenues crash. 

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

So your issue is that the Dems wanted some level of collaboration in the process. You do know that they control one of the houses of congress right. 

A week to get a bill passed is actually lightening fast. 

Could have been a lot faster, especially when the reason for the delay wasn't getting important additions to the bill, but about pork barrelling for things that had nothing to do with Coronavirus. Pretending that there were core changes to the bill worth days of delay is asinine. The House could have voted sooner, and The Democrat Senate could have passed it sooner, the delays had nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with Democrats.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Rue]

The constant attempt to reframe this debate as you are either  for or against shutting down the economy is bullshit.

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It looks like it's getting held up for a while.  From the Guardian:  Maybe he's changed his mind by now, of course.

The US House of representatives is set to pass a $2.2tn package later Friday to ease the coronavirus pandemic’s devastating toll on the economy and healthcare system following a 96-0 vote in the Senate, though the actions of a single lawmaker could delay proceedings by several hours.

Kentucky Representative Thomas Massie, who has voiced his opposition the bill, has threatened to demand a roll call vote, which would hold up passage until most lawmakers return to Washington for a vote, prompting backlash at a time when Americans have been urged to self-quarantine or maintain distance from one another.

LOL way to go Teapartier. 

I hope Y is equally as enraged at this.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/president-trump-unloads-on-thomas-massie-after-the-kentucky-republican-rep-stalls-coronavirus-relief-bill

Edited March 27, 2020 by Boges