Should Don Cherry Have Been Fired?

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, jacee said:

Anti-Muslim comments are as much slurs as anti-Jewish comments. 

Even if they are true?

[Rue]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Anti-Muslim comments are as much slurs as anti-Jewish comments. 

Yes...they might be in the sense of being "unjustly negative" if  that is your point...but that is not the issue.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Rue, you are just wrong wrong wrong.

And since you don't comprehend at all what rights of Freedom of Expression mean, there is no point in discussing it further. 

I can express myself freely while you are doing the same. The Charter does not say anything about taking turns. My reaction to your speech is as valid as your speech. 

And neither of us can be arrested for either. 

Your response makes no sense. Nowhere in the Charter or in any common case law or in any law does it say you can prevent someone from expressing their opinion which is what your position is. No the Charter does not say anything about taking turns, nor did I say that. Taking turns is based on proper manners and civility not law. I also never argued you could not express your opinion. I argued you can't shut someone else down simply because you disagree with them. I think Jacee rather that blocking your ears to something you don't agree with you go at least read the Charter and see how its been interpreted in common law cases in Canada and for that matter read some cases on freedom of speech and expression.

Bottom line is, its not defined by your subjective labels and opinions.

[Rue]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:06 PM, jacee said:

Cherry hasn't shown any dignity, failed to apologize, just endless 'explanations' and glossing over the racism in his remarks.

"Browbeating"?  The public backlash is what got him fired, and rightly so. 

In regards to your first comment many feel his responses in the days after he was fired showed dignity and just clarification.

In regards to your second comment, you believe backlash is a legitimate criteria for censoring people. Therein lies yet another position of yours I challenge. Backlash can be or may not be justified. Even if it is, that is not the issue. Being angry and screaming no matter how justified is not an excuse to shout down another. You defend precisely the rational of the self-entitled-those who think their own sense of entitlement justifies drowning out others they don't agree with. You embrace intolerance, anger, screaming, mob mentality. You shout others down while expecting yourself to be heard.

What you call backlash some of us refer to as mob rule-people with pitchforks and torches screaming death to Frankenstein, people who burn books, people who go on rampages smashing buildings and windows. Go read about the Brownshirts. They epitomize what you are embracing.

 

 

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

The amount of hate that was generated in america when 911 happened was unbelievable.  The u.s. is famous for overdoing things when it comes to war.  

Not now, thanks to Trump.

[jacee]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Even if they are true?

Evidence?

 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, jacee said:

Evidence?

 

Let's just assume they are.

Hypothetically.

Edited November 27, 2019 by bcsapper

[jacee]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

Your response makes no sense. Nowhere in the Charter or in any common case law or in any law does it say you can prevent someone from expressing their opinion which is what your position is. No the Charter does not say anything about taking turns, nor did I say that. Taking turns is based on proper manners and civility not law. I also never argued you could not express your opinion. I argued you can't shut someone else down simply because you disagree with them.

The Charter only means that the state/government/police cannot step in to prevent free speech in public. 

When people disagree, they may talk over each other. Many people disagree with white supremacists speaking openly in public places, and may talk over them. It isn't against the law. They can keep talking too, unless they decide to stop. 

The state can't prevent their free speech, nor can it prevent those who disagree from speaking back at them. 

There are no free speech police who can make us stop speaking back. If white supremacists are speaking in public places, there is a good chance that the public will not want to listen, will disagree, speak back, talk over them. That is all free speech. If the speakers are unpopular, as white supremacists are, they may get booed off the stage. Oh.well. Nobody promised them an adoring audience.

There are no nanny police for them to run to crying, to make us 'take turns'. That's ridiculous.

Is that what you are suggesting? That when unpopular white supremacists are speaking in public, the police will make the public shut up and listen?

Do you even hear how ridiculous you sound? Lol 

There is no 'right to be heard' in public. There is no rule or law that people 'have to' listen. The nanny police cannot stop a crowd from booing white supremacists (or Doug Ford) off the stage in public. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

15 minutes ago, jacee said:

The Charter only means that the state/government/police cannot step in to prevent free speech in public. 

When people disagree, they may talk over each other. Many people disagree with white supremacists speaking openly in public places, and may talk over them. It isn't against the law. They can keep talking too, unless they decide to stop. 

The state can't prevent their free speech, nor can it prevent those who disagree from speaking back at them. 

Alright then, why can't White Supremacists show up at a pride parade and shout over them then? Why is that not allowed, and you cheer them being stopped from doing so, but you are allowed to shout down all the White Supremacists you want and they aren't allowed to stop you from doing so?

According to you, free speech is only for people who agree with you and you think are popular, and not for people who disagree with you and you think are unpopular. You are pro-free speech only for people you don't hate, everyone else gets no free speech according to jacee, these unpopular people should be shouted down at all public speaking events, as long as you don't like them, allowing people who disagree with you to listen to them is not acceptable.

You remain completely oblivious to the obvious double standard.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

43 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Alright then, why can't White Supremacists show up at a pride parade and shout over them then? Why is that not allowed, and you cheer them being stopped from doing so, but you are allowed to shout down all the White Supremacists you want and they aren't allowed to stop you from doing so?

According to you, free speech is only for people who agree with you and you think are popular, and not for people who disagree with you and you think are unpopular. You are pro-free speech only for people you don't hate, everyone else gets no free speech according to jacee, these unpopular people should be shouted down at all public speaking events, as long as you don't like them, allowing people who disagree with you to listen to them is not acceptable.

You remain completely oblivious to the obvious double standard.

White supremacist homophobes/Christian bigots do show up at Pride Fests/parades and shout obscene things at people. Nobody said they can't. The police don't stop them from speaking. 

People do prevent them from being heard/seen by screening them and drowning them out. Oh.well. That's all just freedom of expression. We all have it. 

Nobody's preventing them from speaking, but nobody promised them an audience either.  Lol 

Again it's this ridiculous sense of entitlement of white supremacists, thinking that they are guaranteed the 'right to be heard'. Nonsense. Nobody 'has to' listen to those creeps. 

What I think is irrelevant. I can think and say what I wish, disagree, talk over whom I wish.

THE LAW does not guarantee anyone an audience.

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

14 minutes ago, jacee said:

White supremacist homophobes/Christian bigots do show up at Pride Fests/parades and shout obscene things at people. Nobody said they can't. The police don't stop them from speaking. 

People do prevent them from being heard/seen by screening them and drowning them out. Oh.well. That's all just freedom of expression. We all have it. 

Nobody promised them an audience. Lol 

The people you shout down have an audience who wants to listen, just because you show up and try to shout them down doesn't mean that they don't. They have an audience, and you are disrupting their good time and preventing them from listening makes you as big of a jerk as the White supremacist homophobe/Christian bigots who show up at events they don't like just to disrupt them as well. You have no moral high ground, you are the other side of coin of the very behavior you decry only when the right engages in it, while excusing it while the left engages in it.

How about you and the homophobes you so decry both just stay home and stop attending public speaking events of people you hate so much you can't shut up and let them talk? If you don't like it, don't listen, gathering a mob together to shout them down, when it's obvious other people want to listen to them, that is just being a control freak. Whether the right does it, or the left does it, is irrelevant, when either engage in it, it's called being an asshole. You aren't morally in the right just because you think you are the good guys and they are bad guys, and the excuses being a jerk.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The people you shout down have an audience who wants to listen, just because you show up and try to shout them down doesn't mean that they don't. It's not about being promised an audience, they have an audience, and you are disrupting their good time makes you as big of a jerk as the White supremacist homophobe/Christian bigots who show up at events they don't like just to disrupt them as well. You have no moral high ground, you are the other side of coin of the very behavior you decry only when the right engages in it, while excusing it while you engage in it.

Show me a photo of Christian white supremacist homophobes with an audience in a public space. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't happen often. Lol 

They just aren't very popular. Oh well. And generally not too bright either, because they can't grasp that we ALL have free speech. They're not 'entitled' to speak uninterrupted. Nobody is guaranteed that.

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, jacee said:

Show me a photo of Christian white supremacist homophobes with an audience in a public space. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't happen often. Lol 

They just aren't very popular. Oh well. And generally not too bright either, because they can't grasp that we ALL have free speech. They're not 'entitled' to speak uninterrupted. Nobody is guaranteed that.

You are trying to shut down their speech on the grounds that you don't find them to be popular. They aren't guaranteed an audience, but that doesn't mean they don't have one, and that doesn't mean you should act like a jerk. Stop attending events to prevent people you don't like from speaking.

You think everyone is white supremacist, including several popular individuals, and you still try to shut them down when the speak publicly. Maxime Bernier and Dave Rubin for instance. Someone being a white supremacist that you don't think is very popular is not a good excuse to try and shout them down, and most of the time, you aren't even right about them being a white supremacist or their popularity level, and you still engage in this degenerate behavior.

You are searching for a reason to be outraged, and when there is no good reason, you make one up because you are addicted to outrage. You think this justifies your actions, when it does nothing of the sort.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

15 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

You are trying to shut down their speech on the grounds that you don't find them to be popular. They aren't guaranteed an audience, but that doesn't mean they don't have one, and that doesn't mean you should act like a jerk. Stop attending events to prevent people you don't like from speaking.
 

You can't make me. Neither can the state/government/police. 

Quote

You think everyone is white supremacist, including several popular individuals, and you still try to shut them down when the speak publicly. Maxime Bernier and Dave Rubin for instance. Someone being a white supremacist that you don't think is very popular is not a good excuse to try and shout them down, and most of the time, you aren't even right about them being a white supremacist or their popularity level, and you still engage in this degenerate behavior.

You can't tell me what to think or say. Neither can the state/government/police.

Freedom of thought, freedom of expression are for everyone. 

If some deranged racist homophobic loser creeps are shouting obscene and hateful things in public, perhaps with children present, of course members of the public are going to drown them out. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, jacee said:

You can't make me. Neither can the police. 

 

 

You can't tell me what to think or say. Neither can the state/government/police.

Freedom of thought, freedom of expression are for everyone. 

Go ahead, be as bad as the very people you decry for engaging in the same behavior that you do. Be a giant hypocrite and act like the other side are the only one's engaging in bad behavior. Suit yourself.

I don't disagree with your right to be an idiot in this instance, but that doesn't make it wise to be an idiot.

Nor does it give you any moral high ground on the bigots homophobes trying to shout down Pride Parades that you like to trash on, you are no better than they are. You are just a left wing version of the same idiocy.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

19 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Go ahead, be as bad as the very people you decry for engaging in the same behavior that you do. Be a giant hypocrite and act like the other side are the only one's engaging in bad behavior. Suit yourself.

I don't disagree with your right to be an idiot in this instance, but that doesn't make it wise to be an idiot, or give you any moral high ground on the bigots homophobes trying to shout down Pride Parades that you like to trash on, you are no better than they are.

Oh I'm much better than racist homophobe loser creeps. Lol 

Your opinion is irrelevant to me, but you're welcome to blather on. 

I was responding to Rue's claims:

  

Quote

15 hours ago, Rue said:

"Your response makes no sense. Nowhere in the Charter or in any common case law or in any law does it say you can prevent someone from expressing their opinion which is what your position is. No the Charter does not say anything about taking turns, nor did I say that. Taking turns is based on proper manners and civility not law. I also never argued you could not express your opinion. I argued you can't shut someone else down simply because you disagree with them."

See, Rue's trying to tell me I "can't" speak back to racist homophobe loser creeps. 

Rue is wrong. 

I can. 

They can continue speaking.

Others can prevent them from being heard. Nobody promised them an adoring audience.

And Pride Festival participants certainly are not willing to listen to loser creep racist homophobes shouting obscene things at them. 

Whether you racist homophobe loser creeps like it or not is irrelevant. Run to the police crying because "They won't listen to us!" Go ahead. See what they say.  Lol 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, jacee said:

Oh I'm much better than racist homophobe loser creeps. Lol 

 

Some of them are better than you, because at least they don't show up to your events and try to shout them down, the way you show up to theirs and shout them down. In many cases, they have the moral high ground on you, the one's who engage in the same behavior that you do, you are no better than.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

23 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Some of them are better than you, because at least they don't show up to your events and try to shout them down, the way you show up to theirs and shout them down. In many cases, they have the moral high ground on you, the one's who engage in the same behavior that you do, you are no better than.

Racist homophobe loser creeps aren't worth listening to. Nobody cares ... except when blathering in 'virtual reality' anonymous discussion boards ... but their 'supporters', if they exist, certainly don't show up in public to hear them (thus, no audiences), likely because their bosses would fire them if they showed up in public news footage being racist homophobe loser creeps.

Oh.Well. lol 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, jacee said:

A racist homophobe loser creeps aren't worth listening to. Nobody cares ... except on discussion boards, but their 'supporters', if they exist, certainly don't show up in public to hear them (thus, no audiences), likely because their bosses would fire them if they showed up in public news footage being racist homophobe loser creeps.

Oh.Well. lol 

They do show up to hear them, you are just too busy shouting them down to notice. You thinking someone isn't worth listening to does not excuse your behavior, just because you don't think they are worth listening to does not mean everyone or even most people agree with you.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

They do show up to hear them, you are just too busy shouting them down to notice. You thinking someone isn't worth listening to does not excuse your behavior.

Show me a photo of people actually listening to racist homophobe loser creeps speaking. 

You can't. 

Because they're not there.

Because their bosses would fire them if they were seen at a white supremacist rally.

Nobody wants to be associated with or listen to racist homophobe loser creeps in public. 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, jacee said:

Show me a photo of people actually listening to racist homophobe loser creeps speaking. 

You can't. 

Because they're not there.

Because their bosses would fire them if they were seen at a white supremacist rally.

Nobody wants to be associated with or listen to racist homophobe loser creeps in public. 

I can. Notice there is not no one in the crowd, people came to listen to the guy, it's not just protesters in the crowd. You may not like him, but you don't speak for everybody. Lack of popularity is not a good excuse for shouting someone down at a public event, regardless, you bringing it up like it even matters, just proves the straws you will grasp at to justify your lame behavior.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[jacee]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I can. Notice there is not no one in the crowd, people came to listen to the guy, it's not just protesters in the crowd. You may not like him, but you don't speak for everybody. Lack of popularity is not a good excuse for shouting someone down at a public event, regardless, you bringing it up like it even matters, just proves the straws you will grasp at to justify your lame behavior.

That's a private venue. Creeps can do what they want inside private places.

We are talking about public spaces, where no one wants to hear the obscene and hateful speech of racist homophobes.  

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's a private venue. Creeps can do what they want inside private places.

We are talking about public spaces, where no one wants to hear the obscene and hateful speech of racist homophobes.  

People have no right to free speech in public spaces. If it offends jacee it's not allowed, only those who don't offend jacee are allowed to speak in public. Yeah, you're so pro-free speech.


Whether most people don't want to hear racist, sexist, homophobes is irrelevant, they still have the right to free speech. Public spaces are not required to be a safe space, nor should they be. The popularity of those speaking in those spaces is irrelevant.

No one put you in charge of public spaces, you don't get to thought police them, you just think you do.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Rue]

10 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's a private venue. Creeps can do what they want inside private places.

We are talking about public spaces, where no one wants to hear the obscene and hateful speech of racist homophobes.  

Stop speaking as if you and "no one" are one and the same. You are you. You represent only yourself.

This is in direct response to Jacee's continued unilateral proclomation of what should not be tolerated:

source:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/liberals-fail-to-practise-what-they-preach-about-tolerance-1.3995329

 

"It seems to me that it is an essential aspect of any ethics system worthy of the name that it provides a restraint not merely on others but on one’s own behaviour. If this element is absent then what is put forward as ethics is merely a cover for one’s own personal preferences – indeed it becomes a tyrant’s manifesto. Certainly, there is little credit to be obtained from complying with an ethical system that does nothing more than authorise what one would want to do anyway."

"Because it is right-thinking liberals who get to decide what speech is intolerant – and therefore exists outside the sphere of protection that tolerance requires – the result, in practical terms, is that the ethic of tolerance provides no restraint on liberals at all. It is only a restraint on the actions, speech and, ultimately, thought of their political opponents. In short, it is no ethic at all. It amounts to a thinly-veiled attempt to avoid what would otherwise be an obvious charge of hypocrisy:"....

"If tolerance is to mean anything, it means precisely that liberals must put up with speech that they regard as “intolerant” of what they like and celebrate. Otherwise they are no better than that trope to which they frequently have recourse: the hypocritical priest who refuses to practise what he preaches."

 

 

 

 

[jacee]

14 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

People have no right to free speech in public spaces. If it offends jacee it's not allowed, only those who don't offend jacee are allowed to speak in public. Yeah, you're so pro-free speech.


Whether most people don't want to hear racist, sexist, homophobes is irrelevant, they still have the right to free speech. Popularity is irrelevant.

No one put you in charge of public spaces, you don't get to thought police them, you just think you do.

They can speak. 

We can speak back. 

We can all speak in public.

You ain't special. 

Nobody 'has to' listen to you in public.

In private ... you can name lizard eyeballs after antifa, chant secret curses at them, boil them and eat them or however you conduct your secret covens.

Keep it secret, no problem.

In public, you'll be opposed. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by jacee