200 Muslim students exempted from sex education in Québec

[Modest]

14 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

 

I am still happy, as at least you let for now aside the tired label "racist"; not that I believe retarded excludes somehow racist . . . 

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Modest said:

The Quebecers de souche seem to be in a terrible hurry to get extinct, so much that they are concerned even about what lives live the religious people they import to replace them, and that already for a long time. Why just import once a batch of Muslim Arabs enough to redress the fertility of the province and make the business happy with that cheap workforce ?  They prefer to make the immigrants in their image, i.e. barren, in order to import each year for ever, large masses of people to be digested by their death-prone and only death-generating society.  

Can you imagine, on top of having to get through life, you had the burden of continuing a culture and ensuring it didn't go 'extinct' ?  Although I don't know what that means, exactly, since the fur trapping, farming, and voyageur traditions amongst others are gone, it still sounds burdensome.  

We only should be concerned about maintaining freedom, and speaking up about those who succumb to limiting the freedom of others.

Next generation's "Muslim arabs" will be like this generation's Canadian born Chinese kids.  They'll listen to Canadian pop music, and they will live in a true Multicultural society, which is to say a Melting Pot without pressure to conform.  True freedom.

Whatever society you are proposing, its preoccupation with maintaining bloodlines of the past will necessarily limit freedom and change.  It will close off from the world and end up as death-prone itself.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine, on top of having to get through life, you had the burden of continuing a culture and ensuring it didn't go 'extinct' ?  Although I don't know what that means, exactly, since the fur trapping, farming, and voyageur traditions amongst others are gone, it still sounds burdensome.  

We only should be concerned about maintaining freedom, and speaking up about those who succumb to limiting the freedom of others.

Next generation's "Muslim arabs" will be like this generation's Canadian born Chinese kids.  They'll listen to Canadian pop music, and they will live in a true Multicultural society, which is to say a Melting Pot without pressure to conform.  True freedom.

Whatever society you are proposing, its preoccupation with maintaining bloodlines of the past will necessarily limit freedom and change.  It will close off from the world and end up as death-prone itself.

I agree with this.  Cultures, traditions, languages, etc, they come and go.  No effort should be made (beyond an individual's personal choice of action, of course) to try and extend the life of something that is past its due date.

[QuebecOverCanada]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine, on top of having to get through life, you had the burden of continuing a culture and ensuring it didn't go 'extinct' ?  Although I don't know what that means, exactly, since the fur trapping, farming, and voyageur traditions amongst others are gone, it still sounds burdensome.  

We only should be concerned about maintaining freedom, and speaking up about those who succumb to limiting the freedom of others.

Next generation's "Muslim arabs" will be like this generation's Canadian born Chinese kids.  They'll listen to Canadian pop music, and they will live in a true Multicultural society, which is to say a Melting Pot without pressure to conform.  True freedom.

Whatever society you are proposing, its preoccupation with maintaining bloodlines of the past will necessarily limit freedom and change.  It will close off from the world and end up as death-prone itself.

The worst part about Modest's argument is about the race preservation part.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

No effort should be made (beyond an individual's personal choice of action, of course) to try and extend the life of something that is past its due date.

What give up my viagra? 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Those who come here and find the values and culture uncomfortable go back home. Simple and easy. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Those who come here and find the values and culture uncomfortable go back home. Simple and easy. 

I bet they don't.  No evidence of course, other than my own experience, and that was with the weather, but I would bet they don't.

[taxme]

18 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

So we need more division and more exemptions for students. Because religion is more important than having a sound education, and to integrate society.

If we all want to stop all of this racial, religious and culture nonsense that has been going on for several decades here in Canada land, then get rid of that divisive program and agenda called multiculturalism, and stop the promotion of diversity. When new immigrants come to Canada from anywhere they must all be told to leave their past identity behind them, and immediately start to become a part of the Canadian culture. Our governments should not be encouraging those new immigrants to keep their languages and cultures and religions as what is being done today. The host Canadians are forking out hundreds of billions of their tax dollars to help most of those new immigrants keep and preserve their culture, religions and languages alive and well in Canada. This needs to stop now. Did they come here to become Canadian or did they come here with the intentions of hanging onto and promoting their way of life and values and cultures on the host Canadian people?

Multiculturalism is killing this country. A country cannot survive if it allows so many cultures to be on par with it's own western culture and values and ways of doing things. Allowing East Indians to have their parades or even their own schools, and Muslims to be allowed to have prayer rooms in schools is not what I would call assimilating into Canadian culture. That to me is giving me the finger. We are here now, so live with it. Being oh so politically incorrect, I will not live with it. This is my country, and not the country that they came from.  That's it. 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 1/30/2020 at 1:03 AM, Modest said:

Maybe "the Muslims drag the society back to the dark ages". Fact is that this "back" and these "Dark Ages" are the normality of ANY human society that ever existed. One can deplore the stupidity and the toxicity of religious dogmas and the unfair character of many patriarchal rules (and I for one deplore it sincerely), but NO modern society (and in no case Canada) have succeeded in making a rationalist and a respectful society of the human rights, and in the same time being minimally functional: ALL modern societies need year after year to import MASSIVELY people provided by... "the unfair and the bigoted traditional societies".

As long as you still fail to find a solution to YOUR own dysfunctional society, in order to make and keep it time-resilient and sustainable demographically (which is the most basic feature),  otherwise than taking other societies' pret-à-user humans, that they still KNOW how to make, keep silent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you have a minimal morality and a minimal sens of fairness. let alone rationality. And let down your ridiculous superiority complex. 

That's a pretty darn good point.

Our current culture is so unsustainable it seeks to destroy itself by attrition in a matter of a handful of generations.

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine, on top of having to get through life, you had the burden of continuing a culture and ensuring it didn't go 'extinct' ?  Although I don't know what that means, exactly, since the fur trapping, farming, and voyageur traditions amongst others are gone, it still sounds burdensome.  

We only should be concerned about maintaining freedom, and speaking up about those who succumb to limiting the freedom of others.

Would you say that to aboriginals?

People's culture is very important to them.

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Next generation's "Muslim arabs" will be like this generation's Canadian born Chinese kids.  They'll listen to Canadian pop music, and they will live in a true Multicultural society, which is to say a Melting Pot without pressure to conform.  True freedom.

Freedom includes the freedom to try and maintain culture too.  We have the freedom to live anywhere we want, yet your city is a giant jigsaw puzzle of different cultures living in voluntary enclaves in part to maintain their cultures, bloodlines etc.  Good luck finding a Chinese person living in Brampton.

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Whatever society you are proposing, its preoccupation with maintaining bloodlines of the past will necessarily limit freedom and change.  It will close off from the world and end up as death-prone itself.

That's true, it can limit freedom and change.  That's the tricky part I guess, something very hard to manage.  Quebec has become discriminatory in some ways.

[Moonlight Graham]

12 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I agree with this.  Cultures, traditions, languages, etc, they come and go.  No effort should be made (beyond an individual's personal choice of action, of course) to try and extend the life of something that is past its due date.

If millions of ie: the French moved into Britain every year until the English were a minority and the official language of Britain was changed from English to French and the PM was a Frenchmen named Jean Pierre...you'd be ok with this?

[Modest]

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine, on top of having to get through life, you had the burden of continuing a culture and ensuring it didn't go 'extinct' ?  Although I don't know what that means, exactly, since the fur trapping, farming, and voyageur traditions amongst others are gone, it still sounds burdensome.  

We only should be concerned about maintaining freedom, and speaking up about those who succumb to limiting the freedom of others.

Next generation's "Muslim arabs" will be like this generation's Canadian born Chinese kids.  They'll listen to Canadian pop music, and they will live in a true Multicultural society, which is to say a Melting Pot without pressure to conform.  True freedom.

Whatever society you are proposing, its preoccupation with maintaining bloodlines of the past will necessarily limit freedom and change.  It will close off from the world and end up as death-prone itself.

I think that your point of view is unavoidably ethnocentric (freedom as the paramount and legitimate aim of any human effort) but still more sad also very pessimistic: no, really I don't see why the whites' people struggle to survive as a racial community (of course between other racial communities on this planet), has to lead necessarily to a gloomy isolationism. If you are happy that arabs and the chinese or blacks next generation will listen pop music (you are really an adult?) , for others that's not enough, if there will be only chinese or arabs, or worse, only blacks and not white people too.

I don't share your idolatry of the so-called ''freedom'' typical of the Western societies, but I admit that when allowed rationally and without blind dogmatism and stupidity (as unfortunately sometimes it is more and more dispensed in Canada and the West) freedom is a real value that any human being strive to have. Culture, yes it matters, and the Western culture has a value and a flavor that I want to see endure in time, but that's not enough: I am a human, and as ANY human I have sensibilities that are not simply cultural and abstract: I may like to see ''free'' young people making stinky the streets on which I go, with joint smoke and odor, but maybe I like to see also female faces that have no muzzles (maxillary prognathism), and no nappy hairs, and no noses spread on 3/4 of the faces and no thick, saggy lips,  as I saw when I was young, and actually as I saw till recently. Fact is that we can still have both, cultural elements preserved and the ethnic and racial survival also - no ome tried to promote seriously this survival, because canadian and western and modernized world governments have no attention to pay to such things. Or maybe we cannot have both, situation in which you choose to rather preserve western culture and I choose to rather preserve the ethnicity - I am an atheist and as any immigrant always voted liberals, but if I have to choose between having a christian or muslim wife that it is white, or indian, or arab, or chinese, I will chose THAT rather than have as wife a black or mulatto wife that is atheist, liberal and enlightened.  The same goes with which citizenry I/d like to have around me. I don/t know if esthetical preferences make someone racist, but if it make I am a racist without wishing to be one and hating that. My only consolation is that my esthetical preferences are widespread shared - blacks have the same esthetical preferences as me as long as more than a third of them succeed to marry a white woman, but less than 3% of whites and asians ever marry a black woman.   

One more thing to say: you speak about freedom as if it is something absolut, as there is a place (the Western world?) where freedom is absolute and clearcut. There is no such thing, Nowhere. The freedom it is limited already in any country and in any human society - the western societies allow male sexual mutilation, but ban female sexual mutilation. The english-speaking societies make of freedom of religion a fetish and an idol (imposing limits on what one can do and say about religion and religious people), meanwhile the french-speaking (and german-speaking) societies allow for restrictions on religion freedom, valuing more the freedom FROM religion, i.e. the stupid and toxic indoctrination of people, especially children. Western societies historically allowed for obscene levels of inequality, even if everyone knows for a long time that there is no real freedom without having a shelter, food, health and a job. Freedom, even in the most favorable social context, has a cost, a social cost made to pay by some of us, that are free (or maybe not so free) to become prostitutes, or people working in health-ruining trades. The excesses of drug, alcohol and sexuality which one see in young people in Western societies have for some of these young costs (life, or maybe better to say death, or at least health hazards), that have to be put also on the side of drawbacks of the freedom western-style.  Freedom better to be tweaked responsibly and from time to time adjusted for the necessary aims of the time. NOW, with a whole race in the process of getting extinct, maybe we have to readjust the freedoms to better produce what it is necessary. There is no risk making that, in my opinion, because humans are always and anywhere the same, and they strive for the same things: freedom cannot disappear from the list of cherished values of any human being living now, in 1000 years from now, or 1000 years ago. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Modest

[Modest]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

That's a pretty darn good point.

Our current culture is so unsustainable it seeks to destroy itself by attrition in a matter of a handful of generations.

If it was a matter of "a handful of generations" I would not be already unhappy now !  When I came to Canada I already knew that the old white population is in a process of attrition, but I was unable to foresee that the process is so brutally accelerating so that I can see the change in less than a generation in Montreal (and not in Toronto) . . .      

The liberals like to speak about sustainability in economy and mineral resources matters, but not ethnicities. They like to wail frequently about the species of cockroaches and birds, reptiles and rats, that risk extinctions, but they never care about the risk of extinction of whites.   

Edited February 1, 2020 by Modest

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Would you say that to aboriginals?

People's culture is very important to them.

Freedom includes the freedom to try and maintain culture too.  We have the freedom to live anywhere we want, yet your city is a giant jigsaw puzzle of different cultures living in voluntary enclaves in part to maintain their cultures, bloodlines etc.  Good luck finding a Chinese person living in Brampton.

That's true, it can limit freedom and change.  That's the tricky part I guess, something very hard to manage.  Quebec has become discriminatory in some ways.

It IS burdensome, and more so to cultures that are actually under threat.  Both aboriginal and French culture have been suppressed and systematically marginalized by dominant cultures, and the Canadian culture has been also.  

How a society sees values, sex education being part of that, is very important to them.  

I thought about this a long time ago and came to the following conclusions on my own values:
 

- All cultures naturally melt and meld together and eventually fade away

- Preserving history is a good thing

- If you want to promote a culture, it's better to do so with positive actions rather than restricting/suppressing others

- Managing all the contradictions in these statements to produce an agreeable result is difficult politics, but good things are often difficult to achieve

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Modest said:

1. I think that your point of view is unavoidably ethnocentric (freedom as the paramount and legitimate aim of any human effort) but still more sad also very pessimistic: no, really I don't see why the whites' people struggle to survive as a racial community (of course between other racial communities on this planet), has to lead necessarily to a gloomy isolationism.

2. If you are happy that arabs and the chinese or blacks next generation will listen pop music (you are really an adult?) , for others that's not enough, if there will be only chinese or arabs, or worse, only blacks and not white people too.

3.  that's not enough: I am a human, and as ANY human I have sensibilities that are not simply cultural and abstract: I may like to see ''free'' young people making stinky the streets on which I go, with joint smoke and odor, but maybe I like to see also female faces that have no muzzles (maxillary prognathism), and no nappy hairs, and no noses spread on 3/4 of the faces and no thick, saggy lips,  as I saw when I was young, and actually as I saw till recently.

4. Fact is that we can still have both, cultural elements preserved and the ethnic and racial survival also - no ome tried to promote seriously this survival, because canadian and western and modernized world governments have no attention to pay to such things. Or maybe we cannot have both, situation in which you choose to rather preserve western culture and I choose to rather preserve the ethnicity - I am an atheist and as any immigrant always voted liberals, but if I have to choose between having a christian or muslim wife that it is white, or indian, or arab, or chinese, I will chose THAT rather than have as wife a black or mulatto wife that is atheist, liberal and enlightened. 

5. NOW, with a whole race in the process of getting extinct, maybe we have to readjust the freedoms to better produce what it is necessary. 

1. My point of view is ethnocentric ?  I am just responding to your concerns about ethnicity so ? Your opening sentence: "The Quebecers de souche seem to be in a terrible hurry to get extinct"

2. What are you talking about ?  "Only blacks" ?  What ?

3. Ok, so it sounds like you want to be free to look at female faces you like, and free to find black people ugly or so it sounds.  Well you have that freedom.

4. Yes - the reason governments haven't sought to exclude peoples and whole cultures is that people don't want it, and there are no objective benefits.  You could argue that Japan has de facto done this though.

5. No race is in the process of getting extinct, unless they all are.  That's thousands of years in the making and thousands more to go.  I advise you to prioritize your issues, especially your personal ones.

And... All of this is a sidebar to the topic at hand - sex education in Quebec being excused for religious people, and that option being taken by the parents of 200 Muslims.  That is religious freedom, which is part of the cultural aspect you describe.  Our freedom allows you to hold your fringe views, and now you even have a party that gives you and the other 1.7% who believe, a home for such traditional and dead ideas.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If millions of ie: the French moved into Britain every year until the English were a minority and the official language of Britain was changed from English to French and the PM was a Frenchmen named Jean Pierre...you'd be ok with this?

Yes.  I'd prefer Jean Luc!

Edit> I'm curious now.  What would you suggest, beyond the aforementioned "individual's personal choice of action", be done about it?

Edited February 1, 2020 by bcsapper

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How a society sees values, sex education being part of that, is very important to them.

2. I thought about this a long time ago and came to the following conclusions on my own values:

- All cultures naturally melt and meld together and eventually fade away

1. True..

2.  Really?  What about Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Jewish cultures etc?  Many thousands of years, still going strong.

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It IS burdensome, and more so to cultures that are actually under threat.  Both aboriginal and French culture have been suppressed and systematically marginalized by dominant cultures, and the Canadian culture has been also. 

Maintaining something of value is a burden yes, but is it worth it?  It's also a burden to teach people about their own history, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

I know a lot of immigrants who send their children to classes to teach them to speak/read/write in their native language.  They don't need it, it's to maintain culture.  What a burden.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Yes.  I'd prefer Jean Luc!

Edit> I'm curious now.  What would you suggest, beyond the aforementioned "individual's personal choice of action", be done about it?

Brit sex parties

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What about Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Jewish cultures etc?  Many thousands of years, still going strong.

Melded into other cultures, though.  And there are lots more that are gone.

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. Maintaining something of value is a burden yes, but is it worth it?  It's also a burden to teach people about their own history, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

2. I know a lot of immigrants who send their children to classes to teach them to speak/read/write in their native language.  They don't need it, it's to maintain culture.  What a burden.

1. Something about your question strikes me as assumption based: we don't ask if we should do it, but how much should we do it.

2. Yes, and my friends who went to Hebrew school, Ukranian school didn't send their kids.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Brit sex parties

Dammit!  I'm too old and too married to take part.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Brit sex parties

That explains your avatar.

[Modest]

 

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. My point of view is ethnocentric ?  I am just responding to your concerns about ethnicity so ? Your opening sentence: "The Quebecers de souche seem to be in a terrible hurry to get extinct"

2. What are you talking about ?  "Only blacks" ?  What ?

3. Ok, so it sounds like you want to be free to look at female faces you like, and free to find black people ugly or so it sounds.  Well you have that freedom.

4. Yes - the reason governments haven't sought to exclude peoples and whole cultures is that people don't want it, and there are no objective benefits.  You could argue that Japan has de facto done this though.

5. No race is in the process of getting extinct, unless they all are.  That's thousands of years in the making and thousands more to go.  I advise you to prioritize your issues, especially your personal ones.

And... All of this is a sidebar to the topic at hand - sex education in Quebec being excused for religious people, and that option being taken by the parents of 200 Muslims.  That is religious freedom, which is part of the cultural aspect you describe.  Our freedom allows you to hold your fringe views, and now you even have a party that gives you and the other 1.7% who believe, a home for such traditional and dead ideas.

1. Yes, your point of view is ethnocentrism. You have to look into the dictionary, or better in a textbook of anthropology in order to see that. Or at least google:  "evaluation of other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one's own culture." Your  worry with the freedom shows exactly that -  you cannot critically consider the relative character of your own cultures' values.

3. Not so free anymore, at least in Mtl not so free if you exclude looking to vantage fashion magazines.  Almost. 

4. "The reason governments haven't sought to exclude peoples and whole cultures" is that governments in the plutocratic system fetishistically and erroneously called "democracy" serve mainly the business class interests, and it happen that the businesses need cheap workers - ANY people that work, but rather quiet ones (that have no tradition to cherish, and especially no ethnic conscience). The reason why "the people don't want it", is that they have already been brainwashed, as explained above (ethnocentrism), having no clue how to see things otherwise than from the point of view of dominant culture instilled aggressively from above. What better example than the Japanese you invoked, who although were once (or twice  ) westernized by force, are now barren as the Westerners but have taken the stance not to import any desperate human that it is willing to serve cheaply the profit machine owned by the western elites, preferring to torture themselves by using robots and making old people work until late in their lives. Any westernized (or called better and more honestly modernized) society cease to function good enough to survive the next generation . . . And that of course is no worry for no one in western (or modern) administrations, and even if rarely some rebelious idiots in power, like Orban or Kachinsky,  or recently Putin, try to implement measures to preserve the ethnic character of their countries they are decried as "authoritarians" coming from the far right side of the political spectrum and derided (and that is a bad thing, because the most tools- and skilled-deprived people are let alone to try something.)  The same case as with Trump, i.e. a fascistoid idiot that it is alone in speaking about something hurting and worrying some white people. And if people or governments think there isn't an "objective benefit" in preserving a fragile ethnicity/race whom number of people is dwindling already for more than 40 yrs, you already have some elements to question this opinion - I try to not repeat myself to often.  

5. "No race is in the process of getting extinct, unless they all are."   -   Really ????????  With whites being less than 10% of the total population in the world, and already just 50% in USA (not to count the fact that they are more old than the rest !  And not to count the intense mongrelization taking place now inside the countries where they still exist), but you think there is no risk of getting extinct !  Why ?  How that ? Oh, maybe I know :  the cautious optimism.   

"I advise you to prioritize your issues, especially your personal ones."  -  Yes, I know that tune: maybe better to see a psychiatrist or at least an optometrist.   Or learning to count... Even better: not believing the official statistics, nor my eyes :  let better a blackface-dressed-up trudeau mesmerize me into thinking that nothing bad happen, or at least nothing matters - "we are all the same", but just some of us have the chance to inherit the earth.  

"Our freedom allows you to hold your fringe views, and now you even have a party that gives you and the other 1.7% who believe, a home for such traditional and dead ideas." - Yes, fairly true. I would like only to make you consider a paradox: "the traditional and dead ideas" of mine make people to be born, so that the Canadian elites loot-import them to prop up their dead and dying society, because your very alive ideas make people dead-and-barren.  Is there a better definition of parasitism than that ?    

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Modest

[Michael Hardner]

Well @Modest you have made your point.  It's ridiculous to call a response to your thread ethnocentric though, as your whole stream of thought is based on ethnicity and race.

Other than that I have nothing more for you, other than reminding you that we shouldn't be drifting the thread.