Canada needs to stop being China's bitch

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. has more than 2,000,000 incarcerated prisoners...far more than China....but Canada doesn't mind that at all, right ?

 

Red China has...errr...ways...of keeping its prison population down.

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The U.S. has more than 2,000,000 incarcerated prisoners...far more than China....but Canada doesn't mind that at all, right ?

The US incarcerates people for crimes against other people. China for crimes against the state.

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US incarcerates people for crimes against other people. China for crimes against the state.

 

The US does too...so what ?    Ideals vs. Outcomes

[Owly]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US incarcerates people for crimes against other people. China for crimes against the state.

Never heard of treason, sedition, sabotage, espionage, terrorism? All crimes against the state in the US.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. has more than 2,000,000 incarcerated prisoners...far more than China....but Canada doesn't mind that at all, right ?

Have you read any of the comments on here about US gun violence, black incarceration, gerrymandering, politicization of the courts, Jim Crow laws, the list goes on?  It’s the source of half of our political debates and why some are calling for greater separation between our countries rather than greater integration.  Canada has its own excesses, which tend to be on the left and more innocuous. 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The US does too...so what ?    Ideals vs. Outcomes

Fine, then. The U.S. is not a threat to our national sovereignty, is not an espionage threat, and does not harass expatriots in our cities.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Owly said:

Never heard of treason, sedition, sabotage, espionage, terrorism? All crimes against the state in the US.

And how many people are in prison because of them? Btw, remove terrorism from that list.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Fine, then. The U.S. is not a threat to our national sovereignty, is not an espionage threat, and does not harass expatriots in our cities.

 

The U.S. is an existential threat to Canada's economy and is very much an espionage threat (e.g. NSA).

Why get so righteous about China ?   

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Have you read any of the comments on here about US gun violence, black incarceration, gerrymandering, politicization of the courts, Jim Crow laws, the list goes on?  It’s the source of half of our political debates and why some are calling for greater separation between our countries rather than greater integration.  Canada has its own excesses, which tend to be on the left and more innocuous. 

 

Canada has some serious problems too, especially when it comes to "human rights", which is why it is a non-starter when dealing with China....so don't do it.

[Owly]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

And how many people are in prison because of them? Btw, remove terrorism from that list.

You're the one making the assumptions so you can do the research. And btw, terrorism stays in. It was put into US law back in 2001.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. is an existential threat to Canada's economy and is very much an espionage threat (e.g. NSA).

Why get so righteous about China ?   

Let's be realistic. The US doesn't need to spy much on Canada since Canada doesn't do anything they can't simply ask for, and because it has no need of conducting espionage on Canadian high tech or defense industries. It's also not our enemy, notwithstanding the fact some Americans, esp online, like to act like assholes.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, Owly said:

You're the one making the assumptions so you can do the research. And btw, terrorism stays in. It was put into US law back in 2001.

Why are you desperately trying to twist logic and facts into pretzels to defend China?

[Owly]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Why are you desperately trying to twist logic and facts into pretzels to defend China?

Because facts are facts. Has nothing to do with defending anybody.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Owly said:

Because facts are facts. Has nothing to do with defending anybody.

China throws people into prison by the hundreds of thousands for being the member of the wrong ethnic group. It executes people for protesting against Tibet, or the slaughter in Tienanmen square. It throws people into labour camps for talking about Democracy. And you want to compare that to the US putting people in prison for terrorism?

Get the f**k out of here.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Let's be realistic. The US doesn't need to spy much on Canada since Canada doesn't do anything they can't simply ask for, and because it has no need of conducting espionage on Canadian high tech or defense industries. It's also not our enemy, notwithstanding the fact some Americans, esp online, like to act like assholes.

 

Don't fool yourself....the United States (government) spies on every nation, allied or not, and has been doing so far longer than China.

If challenging your anti-China (and anti-American) biases doesn't meet your approval, then go back to hiding in the sand (ignore).

[Owly]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

China throws people into prison by the hundreds of thousands for being the member of the wrong ethnic group. It executes people for protesting against Tibet, or the slaughter in Tienanmen square. It throws people into labour camps for talking about Democracy. And you want to compare that to the US putting people in prison for terrorism?

Get the f**k out of here.

Ah for your edification, the US locks people up at a higher rate than any other country on the planet earth.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Owly

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada has some serious problems too, especially when it comes to "human rights", which is why it is a non-starter when dealing with China....so don't do it.

I vehemently disagree.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I vehemently disagree.  

 

Good for you....but do you really expect China to ignore the history and continuation of Canada's policies for "aboriginals" and others when confronted on such issues ?

Why even broach such topics when trying to secure favourable trade relations with another sovereign nation ?

And why hasn't Canada been consistent on this vis-a-vis the United States...begging to keep NAFTA in place  ?

[Owly]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Good for you....but do you really expect China to ignore the history and continuation of Canada's policies for "aboriginals" and others when confronted on such issues ?

Why even broach such topics when trying to secure favourable trade relations with another sovereign nation ?

And why hasn't Canada been consistent on this vis-a-vis the United States...begging to keep NAFTA in place  ?

Why is USMCA going nowhere?

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Owly said:

Why is USMCA going nowhere?

 

Hell with USMCA....NAFTA 1.0 is over 25 years old.   Where were your morals and objections then ?   

The fact is that Canada is stuck between two world superpowers now and can't find a way out with the current incompetent government.

China is not going to back down for "Canadian values" that don't mean crap anyway for trade with other nations (USA, KSA, Mexico, Israel, etc.)

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[egghead]

2 hours ago, Owly said:

Ah for your edification, the US locks people up at a higher rate than any other country on the planet earth.

give us the source??

[Owly]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Hell with USMCA....NAFTA 1.0 is over 25 years old.   Where were your morals and objections then ?   

The fact is that Canada is stuck between two world superpowers now and can't find a way out with the current incompetent government.

China is not going to back down for "Canadian values" that don't mean crap anyway for trade with other nations (USA, KSA, Mexico, Israel, etc.)

 

The biggest headline of the day is a book about how your potus cheats at golf. Speaking of incompetent government...

[Owly]

9 minutes ago, egghead said:

give us the source??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

In September 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world, at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.^[1] Corrections (which includes prisons, jails, probation, and parole) cost around $74 billion in 2007 according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics.^[2][3]

[Zeitgeist]

35 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Good for you....but do you really expect China to ignore the history and continuation of Canada's policies for "aboriginals" and others when confronted on such issues ?

Why even broach such topics when trying to secure favourable trade relations with another sovereign nation ?

And why hasn't Canada been consistent on this vis-a-vis the United States...begging to keep NAFTA in place  ?

Were residential schools misguided?  Yes.  Is the Indian Act poor?  Yes.  We’re judging the past with today’s justice.  When Canada became a country the question of how to deal with “Indians” seemed like a legitimate question.  The word “savage” was still commonly used based on the lifestyles European settlers viewed first hand.  Indigenous were living in a growing country where they still had a lot of available land yet very little if any formal education and their living standards were low.  Residential schools seemed like progress to the government.  

Authorities in government didn’t understand the consequences to families and communities of prohibiting cultural practices for the students attending school far away from home.  Even today under Indigenous control, education for many remote communities means living away from family, bilotted in housing.  

Cultural genocide?  How about US Manifest Destiny that included literal war on Indians and seizure of land?  The Brits had tried to help the Six Nations set up an Indian state with Tecumseh.  They had also expelled the French Acadians to Louisiana in the 1750’s.  Loyalists fled the Patriots to the north during the American Revolution.  Blacks traveled north to flee slavery. Iroquois had attacked and tortured Hurons.  Algonquin had attacked other Indigenous groups in the south, and so on.  Those were colonial wars in warring times.  

The creation of Canada was an attempt to reconcile the many opposing peoples and forces.  There were mixed results early on, and the Indigenous took some big hits.  However, reserves are protected under treaty in perpetuity and Indigenous living on reserves pay no taxes and do receive federal funding.  Living conditions on some reserves are deplorable, not just due to poorly maintained housing, but also due to a large amount of addiction, and yes, in some cases, neglect of children. That’s the other side of the 60’s Scoop.  

Nevertheless, wrongs were done and many Indigenous today are living with the consequences.  I’m especially concerned about children, but that’s also why child welfare is getting a boost in funding on reserves.  

We should be sorry as a country, even though such histories are common worldwide.  What matters now after the apologies is how people heal and overcome the misdeeds.  What is the way forward?  As has been discussed, it’s about self-sustainability and self-determination and not necessarily about more government money.  

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

....Nevertheless, wrongs were done and many Indigenous today are living with the consequences.  I’m especially concerned about children, but that’s also why child welfare is getting a boost in funding on reserves.  

We should be sorry as a country, even though such histories are common worldwide.  What matters now after the apologies is how people heal and overcome the misdeeds.  What is the way forward?  As has been discussed, it’s about self-sustainability and self-determination and not necessarily about more government money.  

 

Please stop ignoring the present day continuation of such policies (incarcerations, potable water, sterilizations, child confiscations, etc.)....making apologies does not and cannot fix the present.    Whatever happened in the United States is largely irrelevant to Canada's past and present sins when foolishly attempting to confront China on "human rights".

Only a fool would march up to the Chinese government and smugly demand a better record on human rights for a trade deal.

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by bush_cheney2004