Ottawa says Ontario's call to drop retaliatory tariffs would mean 'surrender'

[Machjo]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada will always ensure that as many American workers and consumers are fucked over by Trump’s tariffs as Canadian workers and consumers.  Thus the counter-tariffs.  Fair trade.  Make no mistake, this is 100% Trump’s fault and every thinking Canadian knows it.  

Trump was reacting foolishly to Canada's own protectionism. Canada was shooting itself in the foot, Trump felt jealous, and so he decided to shoot the US in the foot in retaliation. Canada, foolish as it is, decided to shoot itself in the foot even more in retaliation for that. That's the essense of a trade war.

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, Jimwd said:

The problem it creates is that it’s unfair to Canadian producers. Your suggestion is a good one but would never fly with the Americans. They expect a country 1/10 the population to purchase the same amount as 330 million people . And the funny thing is we do. But their tariffs on lumber has increased the construction costs of a home in America by about 2000 dollars. They cut of their nose to  spite their face. 

Shooting themselves in the foot. And we foolishly retaliate in kind by shooting ourselves in the foot too. The essence of a trade war.

[Machjo]

47 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

So let me get this straight....the countervailing tariffs that Canada imposed on itself for American exports from GOP states is causing so much more additional pain in Ontario and Quebec, Trudeau and Freeland are begging Trump to remove the U.S. Commerce Dept tariffs on steel and aluminum so they can remove their own, self imposed tariffs.

Can't make this stuff up....

https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ontario-quebec-urge-feds-to-do-more-on-u-s-tariffs

 

 

 

They're fools. US tariffs hurt US consumers more than they do anyone else and Canadian tariffs hurt Canadian consumers more than they do anyone else. If Trudeau and Freeland had the slightest inkling of economics 101, they'd just unilaterally drop all tariffs and let the US do what it wants.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Government borrowing to pay those subsidies rais interest rates which affect all US residents including low-income ones.

 

All the more reason that the farm bill costs have less of a direct impact on Americans, who buy a lot of dairy each year at much lower prices than in Canada.   Interest rates have been at historic lows by design.

 

Quote

The best solution for Canada would be for Canada to just open its borders to US products that meet Canadian food standards, not subsidize our own industry, let the US taxpayer subsidize my food purchases, and let the Canadian industry die off and its workers adapt to new industries.

 

Americans over produce dairy and other food commodities.   Canada doesn't even have enough domestic slaughterhouse capacity for beef and pork, relying on U.S. capacity.   Many Canadians already cross the border to buy food products at lower prices.

 

Quote

Economics aside though, I recognize that farmers are an extremely powerful lobby group in Canada that would never allow such common sense to prevail.

 

May not matter...corporate consolidation of farms will impact Canada too.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Trump was reacting foolishly to Canada's own protectionism. Canada was shooting itself in the foot, Trump felt jealous, and so he decided to shoot the US in the foot in retaliation. Canada, foolish as it is, decided to shoot itself in the foot even more in retaliation for that. That's the essense of a trade war.

 

Canada is a secondary concern in a much larger confrontation with China.    Canada is a sideshow in comparison.

American consumers are not feeling the full impact of tariffs yet, despite promises from the tariff naysayers.    I personally have zero impact from the tariffs....gasoline is astonishingly cheap right now ($0.53/litre).  

[Zeitgeist]

 

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Again, the irony lies in your attempt to admonish another member's opinion on CanAm trade by referring to what is clearly an American novel published  in 1852.

Read the novel or at least understand that the content of that novel has an essential Canadian component, the essence of the Underground Railroad itself, which was the trail to freedom in Canada.  Reminds me of the rewriting of history as Americans defeated Tecumseh under Manifest Destiny, preventing Indigenous peoples in the Ohio valley from having their own territory.  I already know your take on this:  “To the victors go the spoils,” too bad so sad.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

 

Read the novel or at least understand that the content of that novel has an essential Canadian component, the essence of the Underground Railroad itself, which was the trail to freedom in Canada.  Reminds me of the rewriting of history as Americans defeated Tecumseh under Manifest Destiny, preventing Indigenous peoples in the Ohio valley from having their own territory.  I already know your take on this:  “To the victors go the spoils,” too bad so sad.  

 

Off topic....if you are going to attack another member in such a way, at least try to be consistent.

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada is a secondary concern in a much larger confrontation with China.    Canada is a sideshow in comparison.

American consumers are not feeling the full impact of tariffs yet, despite promises from the tariff naysayers.    I personally have zero impact from the tariffs....gasoline is astonishingly cheap right now ($0.53/litre).  

Our little sideshow impacts your economy more than China.  The US exports far more to Canada, your number one export market, than to China.  But continue to take allies for granted.  We know the game here.  Take advantage through unfair trade policy as much as possible.  Threaten countries, including allies, and use fear.  Pathetic. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our little sideshow impacts your economy more than China.  The US exports far more to Canada, your number one export market, than to China.  But continue to take allies for granted.  We know the game here.  Take advantage through unfair trade policy as much as possible.  Threaten countries, including allies, and use fear.  Pathetic. 

 

The U.S. is not an export driven economy.    Canada is far more dependent on exports that either China or the USA.   Don't confuse competition with alliances.

Again, if you don't like it, stop whining and diversify export trade to other markets, instead of sending 75% to the bastard Americans.

Why is this so hard to figure out ?

[Machjo]

55 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our little sideshow impacts your economy more than China.  The US exports far more to Canada, your number one export market, than to China.  But continue to take allies for granted.  We know the game here.  Take advantage through unfair trade policy as much as possible.  Threaten countries, including allies, and use fear.  Pathetic. 

Canada should focus on what is within its control. Does free trade with the US benefit Canada? Sure it does, the biggest advantage being in transportation costs compared to countries farther afield.

However, Canada can trade with the US only to the degree that both sides are willing to trade with one another, and Canadian tariffs are hurting our consumers more than they are anyone else. With that, Canada should just forget about the US and adopt unilateral global free trade. The US would reciprocate to its benefit or not to its detriment. Not our business. Let the US do what it wants and we'll do what's best for us.

If you believe that the US is a sovereign state, then you accept that whether to its benefit or to its own harm, the US has the sovereign freedom to choose with whom it will trade just as Canada does. If the US chooses to not trade with Canada, or to trade less with Canada than Canada would like, while that certainly does hurt Canada, there is no point in Canada hurting itself even more by masochistically raising our own taxes against the US. Let the US do its thing and let Canada adopt unilateral global free trade.

 

Also, let's be consistent in our arguments. Canada chose to protect its agricultural industry (to its own harm, sure, but according to its own sovereign choosing) and Trump decided to try to strongarm Canada to back down on that. That angers me for two reasons. Firstly, Trump imposed economic harm on the US itself by raising tariffs against Canada, which just shows how foolish he is (no brighter than our own politicians). Secondly, he tried to usurp Canadian sovereignty through such strongarm tactics.

 

Unfortunately though, Canada is now behaving in the same way through its own strongarm tactics to usurp US sovereignty and to our own harm (and even worse given our comparative economies of scale). In short, we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Machjo

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Machjo said:

...However, Canada can trade with the US only to the degree that both sides are willing to trade with one another, and Canadian tariffs are hurting our consumers more than they are anyone else. With that, Canada should just forget about the US and adopt unilateral global free trade. The US would reciprocate to its benefit or not to its detriment. Not our business. Let the US do what it wants and we'll do what's best for us.

 

Agreed....if Canada is better motivated to diversify trade because of Trump's policies, then Trump has done Canada an enormous favour.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed....if Canada is better motivated to diversify trade because of Trump's policies, then Trump has done Canada an enormous favour.

 

Another one sails outta the park...

[Machjo]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed....if Canada is better motivated to diversify trade because of Trump's policies, then Trump has done Canada an enormous favour.

From that perspective, in a strange way, I'd almost wish for an all-out trade war between the US and Canada. Unfortunately, I'm not sure most Canadian politicians would catch on. They might lower tariffs against other states but would foolishly raise them against the US. They just can't ignore the US and forcus on what's best for us.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

From that perspective, in a strange way, I'd almost wish for an all-out trade war between the US and Canada. Unfortunately, I'm not sure most Canadian politicians would catch on. They might lower tariffs against other states but would foolishly raise them against the US. They just can't ignore the US and forcus on what's best for us.

 

Well, to be fair, Canada has other domestic trade issues to solve regardless of Trump, starting with east-west pipelines.   Any kind of trade "war" would be a slaughter, starting with auto tariffs, loss of American foreign direct investment, and more U.S. energy independence.  Canada can still have U.S. trade, but should not be so dependent on a single export market.

[Machjo]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, to be fair, Canada has other domestic trade issues to solve regardless of Trump, starting with east-west pipelines.   Any kind of trade "war" would be a slaughter, starting with auto tariffs, loss of American foreign direct investment, and more U.S. energy independence.  Canada can still have U.S. trade, but should not be so dependent on a single export market.

In hindsight, maybe an all-out trade war would be a good thing for Canada. If Canada hurts enough, it might then finally start listeing to its economists in desperation to go unilateral.

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s the Uncle Tom mentality that makes some race to the gallows to shake their executioners’ hands.  As always many of us shake our heads in disbelief.  

You're the servile one,  economic nationalism is self enslavement.  

I buy and sell people like you, but I'm not the one who chains you, you chain yourself to your phony "cultural protectorate".

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Jimwd said:

General Motors in 2015 and 2016 set an all time record for auto sales  and corporate profits.

2018 shutting down 5 plants,

Opening three plants in Mexico.  If GM can ditch the autoworkers unions, maybe I will buy some GM stock.

[Dougie93]

Welcome to the Information Age Revolution, Canadian lefties, as Jimwd likes to say "your whole world is going to come crashing down around you". 
 

Join us, or perish by Darwinian forces.

[Machjo]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Welcome to the Information Age Revolution, Canadian lefties, as Jimwd likes to say "your whole world is going to come crashing down around you". 
 

Join us, or perish by Darwinian forces.

I don't see this as a right or left matter. Heck, even Andrew Scheer drank the milk of the Canadian dairy lobby.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I don't see this as a right or left matter. Heck, even Andrew Scheer drank the milk of the Canadian dairy lobby.

Andrew Scheer is a Canadian lefty.  There is no right wing party in Canada. 

There is only the Nanny Socialist Police State and the Nanny Prohibitionist Police State.

Scheer is the latter.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

For those who do not understand left vs right in the Western context; right is towards an hereditary monarchy, left is towards public rule.

The British Crown is inherently conservative, classically liberal, minimally interventionist, limited self government.

The Canadian Nanny State, is Bolshevist.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Dougie93

[Machjo]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

For those who do not understand left vs right in the Western context; right is towards an hereditary monarchy, left is towards public rule.

The British Crown is inherently conservative, classically liberal, minimally interventionist, limited self government.

The Canadian Nanny State, is Bolshevist.

I don't think we need to limit ourselves to the far left and the far right. I'll claim a good idea from whatever source it comes from. I'm not shy about appropriation.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I don't think we need to limit ourselves to the far left and the far right. I'll claim a good idea from whatever source it comes from. I'm not shy about appropriation.

The Canadian Nanny Police State has moved into the far left of the Western World,  the British Crown however, is in the center.  The far right is Saudi Arabia.

[Dougie93]

Used to be,  the Canadian Nanny Police State was simply left, but as it has started passing laws against Thought Crime, it has now gone off the deep end into totalitarian Bolshevism.

The reason is, the Information Age Revolution is upon it, and so it is lashing out in a panic at the onset of Darwinian forces tearing it apart.

Canada is inherently unstable, it can only be put together by an asymmetrical dictatorship, and as that is beginning to falter, it is degenerating into a totalitarian dictatorship where dissenters must be silenced at any cost, under the rubric of "hate speech". 

Hate speech being anything the lefties say it is, which is anything that defies their far left agenda.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

This is indeed the stuff that civil wars are made of, the only missing ingredient is the economic ruination of the nation by its own dysfunctional hand.

This however is being prevented by the Americans, who have been propping Canada up since 1918

Not as the 51st State mind you, simply Giant Puerto Rico, that being preferable to the Americans as opposed to Venezuela North.

That being said, if Canada persists on the far left trajectory it is on now, the Americans will incite Venezuela North and then depose it, installing a friendlier regime in its place.

Which is fine by me, come and free me,  Uncle Abe; glory, glory, hallelujah. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Dougie93