Ottawa says Ontario's call to drop retaliatory tariffs would mean 'surrender'

[Dougie93]

The pursuit of more revenue is folly, the public sector beast will never be satiated, the more money you give it, the more you will have to give it, public spending is a bottomless pit, until the bond holders impose discipline.

If Canada is going to have an edge which allows it to compete asymmetrically, Canada cannot retain the American model as if Canada has the same Flight to Quality.

Milton Friedman's Hong Kong should be the model, less is more. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

And this is because, down in the bones, the very DNA of Canada, it doesn't function as a Westphalian Nation State.

The Westphalian Nation State is literally Elizabeth Windsor.  De jure Elizabeth Windsor, it's not "symbolic" as the Canadian lefties like to assert.

Canada is legally, constitutionally and functionally, the pesonage of that lovely old lady living in Buckingham Palace.

  If you ever try to test it in court, Elizabeth Windsor will smack "Canada" aside with ease. Without Elizabeth Windsor, there is no Canada.

The Domestic Self Governing Federation of 1867, was never constructed to function as more than a protectorate, and so a protectorate it will be, forever.

It's never going to try to take a place in the sun, it will ever be a British protectorate of the American Empire of Liberty, it cannot be what is not in its nature.

Absolute nonsense.  Canadian MP’s could remove any mention of the Queen from passports and her image from our currency without consequence.  There is no transfer of Canadian tax revenue to the UK and no UK political authority over Canada whatsoever.  I confirmed that the Canadian military is entirely at the service of Canada and the Governor General of Canada.  The Queen, lovely as she is, is figurehead, nothing more. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Absolute nonsense.  Canadian MP’s could remove any mention of the Queen from passports and her image from our currency without consequence.  There is no transfer of Canadian tax revenue to the UK and no UK political authority over Canada whatsoever.  I confirmed that the Canadian military is entirely at the service of Canada and the Governor General of Canada.  The Queen, lovely as she is, is figurehead, nothing more. 

If you are want to kill and die for Julie Payette and Justin Trudueau, knock yourself out.  I never swore an oath to defend a government, nor a Viceroy, neither the government of Canada nor the Governor General were mentioned in the oath which I undertook.

Here's the oath;

I, [name], do swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God.

Not seeing the Viceroy nor the Government mentioned in there, at all.

[Dougie93]

Now, for those of you following along at home, the central narrative of our history, is not different from the Americans, we are the Americans, we're just the Americans who are loyal to the British Crown. 

But just as in America, we can't be a free country, if we have to be loyal to the government. 

  In America, this problem is solved by the constitution, that's all you have to be loyal to, you can despise the government and curse their children blind, so long as you hold fast to the constitution and associated preamble.

It's the same thing in Canada, except as Canada is a monarchy, our constitution is actually a person, all the paperwork that goes with that is just paperwork, the Queen is the country, it really is that simple.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, Machjo said:

....As for taxes, they need to be rational. I could see a moderate wealth tax for example. But as for tariffs, they actually hinder economies of scale and efficiency (for example, it would be better for an Ontario plant to sell to New York and its Washington plant to sell to Vancouver from the standpoint of transport costs. Tariffs distort these.

 

Wealth taxes will only encourage more capital flight from Canada, and less foreign direct investment, as would higher royalties on resource extraction.  Not "surrendering" may pay big political dividends for Trudeau/Freeland in the short term, but Trumps larger squeeze favours the Americans in the long run, or at least changes the balance of trade game from what it has been.   

[Machjo]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Wealth taxes will only encourage more capital flight from Canada, and less foreign direct investment, as would higher royalties on resource extraction.  Not "surrendering" may pay big political dividends for Trudeau/Freeland in the short term, but Trumps larger squeeze favours the Americans in the long run, or at least changes the balance of trade game from what it has been.   

That depends. I was thinking maybe a personal wealth tax of 20% (meaning that essential and business assets would not count in that). In exchange, eliminate income taxes, value-added taxes, carbon taxes (since rualties essentially serve that purpose anyway), tariffs, and maybe other taxes too. Overall, that would amount to a significant overall tax reduction. Of course only once our debt is paid off first, but then yes, let's start really dropping our overall taxes.

[Jimwd]

On 2/4/2019 at 3:52 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

It's not about the impact on consumers....if that were the case, Canada would not have such a protectionist tariff scheme for dairy, poultry, etc., years before and regardless of Trump.

America subsidizes its farmers to the tune of 20 billion, that’s not fair trade.

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, Jimwd said:

America subsidizes its farmers to the tune of 20 billion, that’s not fair trade.

In one respect, the Canadian system is better than the US one in that at least it's more user-pay. For example, as a non-consumer of eggs and dairy, I don't contribute to that industry. If I were in the US, I would have no choice but to contribute through my taxes.

On the one hand, I'd say if the US is stupid enough to have US taxpayers subsidize my food consumption, who am I to complain about that? Even economists would agree that the US consumer would be helping to enrich Canadians by subsidizing our food.

On the other hand, I understand the political optics behind it. One solution could be to allow US food products to be sold tariff-free only to businesses that sell only to recipients of social assistance in Canada. This would mean for example that I would not be allowed to buy from that shop. A social-assistance recipient could be provided with a government card authorizing him to buy from that shop.

[Zeitgeist]

Canada will always ensure that as many American workers and consumers are fucked over by Trump’s tariffs as Canadian workers and consumers.  Thus the counter-tariffs.  Fair trade.  Make no mistake, this is 100% Trump’s fault and every thinking Canadian knows it.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Machjo said:

In one respect, the Canadian system is better than the US one in that at least it's more user-pay. For example, as a non-consumer of eggs and dairy, I don't contribute to that industry. If I were in the US, I would have no choice but to contribute through my taxes.

 

 

It is user pay alright, with low income and poor Canadians paying higher prices for basic commodities like dairy and poultry, not to mention the inter-provincial trade barriers for many other consumables.   Low income Americans pay little or no income tax after credits and deductions.

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada will always ensure that as many American workers and consumers are fucked over by Trump’s tariffs as Canadian workers and consumers.  Thus the counter-tariffs.  Fair trade.  Make no mistake, this is 100% Trump’s fault and every thinking Canadian knows it.  

 

And this is exactly as Trump intends it to be, no matter how much Canada complains about it.    Freeland and her flying circus are back in D.C. this week to beg for relief that is not coming anytime soon.    Don't like it....then send Canadian exports someplace else.

 

Quote

The Trump administration’s tariffs on aluminum imports are leading to new investment in what was a dying industry, according to a new report from the left-leaning Environmental Policy Institute.

The report found U.S. aluminum production is expected to increase 67 percent between 2017 and the end of this year because of increased investment. Trump imposed a 10 percent tariff on imported aluminum in June of this year.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/are-tariffs-boosting-the-u-s-aluminum-industry

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

I'm not punishing the Americans, America First, Canada is the one gouging me by putting up tariffs, I don't pay American tariffs.

I'm looking at buying a Chevy Silverado Z71, just to show my support to General Motors shareholders, although I do not myself own GM.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not punishing the Americans, America First, Canada is the one gouging me by putting up tariffs, I don't pay American tariffs.

I'm looking at buying a Chevy Silverado Z71, just to show my support to General Motors shareholders, although I do not myself own GM.

 

True enough...I don't even know what consumer products I would boycott to protest Canada's protectionist trade policies....maybe Abatibi house siding ?

Canadians are going to learn sooner or later that boycotting American made ketchup doesn't alter how the world works.

Edited February 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

I only buy Heinz ketchup, John Kerry may be a liberal, but he did his duty in Vietnam.

[Dougie93]

I'm also exclusively drinking Makers Mark Kentucky Bourbon right now.  $45 a bottle, ten dollar tariff, paid in full, God bless America, down with Canadian Eskimo Communism.

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm also exclusively drinking Makers Mark Kentucky Bourbon right now.  $45 a bottle, ten dollar tariff, paid in full, God bless America, down with Canadian Eskimo Communism.

It’s the Uncle Tom mentality that makes some race to the gallows to shake their executioners’ hands.  As always many of us shake our heads in disbelief.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s the Uncle Tom mentality that makes some race to the gallows to shake their executioners’ hands.  As always many of us shake our heads in disbelief.  

 

Love the irony here...even your analogies use American culture.

[Jimwd]

36 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Love the irony here...even your analogies use American culture.

American culture? Hilarious ..the only thing you can call culture in America is from the blacks with the music they create. You oppress the only real culture from your country, blues ,jazz, rock n roll, all created by blacks. It took the brits to make heroes out of them for you to finally recognize them,..if it was up to the white culture ,you’d be listening duelling banjos 24 hours a day. 

[Jimwd]

10 hours ago, Machjo said:

In one respect, the Canadian system is better than the US one in that at least it's more user-pay. For example, as a non-consumer of eggs and dairy, I don't contribute to that industry. If I were in the US, I would have no choice but to contribute through my taxes.

 

The problem it creates is that it’s unfair to Canadian producers. Your suggestion is a good one but would never fly with the Americans. They expect a country 1/10 the population to purchase the same amount as 330 million people . And the funny thing is we do. But their tariffs on lumber has increased the construction costs of a home in America by about 2000 dollars. They cut of their nose to  spite their face. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Jimwd

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Love the irony here...even your analogies use American culture.

Learn about the Underground Railroad, which is an important and proud part of Canadian history, including Uncle Tom’s cabin.  The cabin was in Ontario.

https://www.heritagetrust.on.ca/en/properties/uncle-toms-cabin

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Learn about the Underground Railroad, which is an important and proud part of Canadian history, including Uncle Tom’s cabin. 

 

Again, the irony lies in your attempt to admonish another member's opinion on CanAm trade by referring to what is clearly an American novel published  in 1852.

Edited February 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Jimwd]

9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not punishing the Americans, America First, Canada is the one gouging me by putting up tariffs, I don't pay American tariffs.

I'm looking at buying a Chevy Silverado Z71, just to show my support to General Motors shareholders, although I do not myself own GM.

General Motors in 2015 and 2016 set an all time record for auto sales  and corporate profits.

2018 shutting down 5 plants,

[DogOnPorch]

21 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Again, the irony lies in your attempt to admonish another member's opinion on CanAm trade by referring to what is clearly an American novel published  in 1852.

 

You really should learn more about Black culture...

[bush_cheney2004]

So let me get this straight....the countervailing tariffs that Canada imposed on itself for American exports from GOP states is causing so much more additional pain in Ontario and Quebec, Trudeau and Freeland are begging Trump to remove the U.S. Commerce Dept tariffs on steel and aluminum so they can remove their own, self imposed tariffs.

Can't make this stuff up....

https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ontario-quebec-urge-feds-to-do-more-on-u-s-tariffs

 

 

 

[Machjo]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It is user pay alright, with low income and poor Canadians paying higher prices for basic commodities like dairy and poultry, not to mention the inter-provincial trade barriers for many other consumables.   Low income Americans pay little or no income tax after credits and deductions.

Government borrowing to pay those subsidies rais interest rates which affect all US residents including low-income ones.

The best solution for Canada would be for Canada to just open its borders to US products that meet Canadian food standards, not subsidize our own industry, let US taxpayer (or lenders) subsidize my food purchases, and let the Canadian industry die off and its workers adapt to new industries.

Economics aside though, I recognize that farmers are an extremely powerful lobby group in Canada that would never allow such common sense to prevail.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Machjo