What do we do about Muslims?

[Argus]

This question comes from a realization I made in the immigration topic. I kind of knew it anyway but hadn't directly verbalized it before. There are a number of reasons to feel discontented with our present immigration and refugee system; good, solid economic reasons. But what really riles people are cultural issues. And at the heart of this are Muslims. Not just here, but in Europe. I think if the tide of Arabs fleeing to Europe had been Christians there'd still have been a fuss, sure, but not as much. And from talking immigration on multiple sites and with people in person, Muslims are at the heart of it. There's a rising sense of suspicion towards Sikhs too, because they're so politically visible. But people are far less worried about Sikhs than Muslims because they see Sikhs as being faster to assimilate and to embrace much of our way of life.

This is not about race. As I said there, Pakistanis and Indians are racially similar. Arabs are more similar to us than Chinese, but the antipathy towards Chinese is just not there, nor towards Indians in general. It's towards Muslims. And the heart of it is they're seen as foreign invaders who will never embrace Canadian values and traditions and whose own values and traditions are violently hostile to ours - and to us. This seems to be made more manifestly obvious as more and more Muslim women embrace the hijabs and burkas and other means of demonstrating their 'otherness'.

When we look at the public opinion polls, and their support for face covering bans, and values tests, I don't think there's much doubt that's because of Muslims. And no, that's not because of some nefarious alt-right plot or people on web sites saying nasty things about Muslims. The media is filled  with stories of violence being done in the name of the Muslim religion all over the world, and often to westerners and minorities. However much the politicians might like to 'tut tut' about how this is only a minority, when you are flooded with such stories for decades you're going to form a very unflattering view of those people and not want large numbers of them coming into your country and settling among you.

[scribblet]

A bit long winded but...

Many people do not see the profound differences in Islam and most other religions.  Maybe they haven’t read about Islam’s history of conquests and non integration, nor must they be aware of the widespread issues, major problems and huge differences in culture and beliefs  with Islamic  countries and Islamic migrants.   Problems such as these migrants assaulting women and children in Germany and U.K. in particular.  This is one example as reported by AP  https://www.foxnews.com/world/afghan-teenager-detained-in-rape-slaying-of-german-student and we all know about the mass assaults at festivals.

Sure, not all of them want to be dominant or are radical or want to rape women,   but as their numbers grow we see what happens.  As Salim Mansur, a Muslim,  points out, the long-term subversion of the West is the mandate of the Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization not only of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in the United States, but also CAIR’s Canadian subsidiary, CAIR-CAN (which now prefers to call itself the National Council of  Canadian Muslims). The Muslim Brotherhood “sees immigration as a process of settlement in its strategy of subverting Western civilization from within,”

And….   Multiculturalism, meanwhile, threatens to allow this attitude to rear its ugly head in the political sphere, according to Mansur. 

"In having swallowed the toxin of official multiculturalism, Canada has disarmed itself of the ability to discriminate between immigrant groups which are importing cultural baggage that is harmless, and those that are toxic to the values of liberal democracy," Mansur concludes..

So, a Muslim  political science prof. has told us Muslim migration is a threat to the west, yet a non-muslim journalist says it's all good.     

Today’s politically correctness doesn’t allow us to differentiate or even suggest that there could be a problem with allowing in huge numbers of Islamists  but as Mansur says;  the things heard in Canadian mosques are “intractably opposed to liberal democracy,” and aim to “ruin from within” Canadian and Western values.   Other Muslims including Tarek Fatah (who is under a death threat) and another Australian Imam tell it like it is, but because he is a moderate he is a ‘fake’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4371064/Muslim-leader-Imam-Shaikh-Mohammad-Tawhidi-called-fake.html

 

[DogOnPorch]

Fact is: Islam (individual Muslims aside) has come to Canada to eventually dominate and eliminate all other forms of faith...including atheism. Not to make friends or to be part of a mosaic of diversity. It's right in the Quran for those who bother to read the battle plan.

Here's one of the quotes from the Quran describing this plan for humanity...

And fight them until there is no fitnah* and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

https://quran.com/8/39

 

* Fitnah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)

Edited December 30, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

7 hours ago, scribblet said:

"In having swallowed the toxin of official multiculturalism, Canada has disarmed itself of the ability to discriminate between immigrant groups which are importing cultural baggage that is harmless, and those that are toxic to the values of liberal democracy," Mansur concludes.. 

I think this is the most relevant part of what you wrote. We, or at least, the chattering classes, the media/artistic/academic and political elites have embraced the idea of diversity and multiculturalism. which says that we must respect all cultures, and that we should not pressure them to assimilate. There is to be no discrimination among cultures, as if all are equal. And this is simply not true. You only have to look at the values and culture of our primary source countries for immigrants to see how different they are in so many ways.

As an aside, I posted an article earlier today talking about the state of wealth of Blacks in the US, which noted that Blacks who originate elsewhere have far more wealth and higher incomes than Blacks born in the US. The conclusion of the article was that American Blacks don't know how to handle money to build wealth. Unlike other cultures, like the Japanese, other Asians, Jews, etc. There are identifiable cultures and values which attach themselves to groups and don't seem easily shrugged off. Parents teach their children and they teach their grandchildren.

The cultural values taught by Islam include a sense of fatalism (it's all God's will), and a rigid sense of morality which is to be violently enforced. They also include a hostility to non-Muslims, or even Muslims who don't worship 'properly', ie, the same way. Nor has Islam had a reformation. It is no more liberal today than it was five hundred years ago.

For all these reasons, and the ongoing violence in the media, many Canadians are extremely reluctant to see large numbers of Muslims immigrating into Canada, particularly since none have been interviewed or tested for values and beliefs. This is raising opposition towards all immigration, and towards immigrants and refugees in general. There are a few intelligent things which can be done about this short of barring all Muslim immigration.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

So what to do? The following ideas occur to me.

Muslims have to be encouraged to assimilate more, to embrace Canadian values and traditions. That includes getting rid of the headgear - which Muslim scholars insist is not a requirement of Islam anyway.

We need to impose a values test so that Canadians can feel reassured that the people coming into Canada do not have values which are violently hostile to our own. And we need to make it clear that gaining actual citizenship requires evidence of an effort to do just that - which is, btw, a requirement in some European countries now.

We need to ban foreign money coming into Canada to support Islamic community centres, to build mosques, and to pay for Islamic schools, and we need to bar foreign born imams and teachers.  An imman from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan is going to communicate the cultural, as well as religious values of those lands to people here, including children. Irshad Manji has talked about being expelled from her Islamic school in BC years ago for questioning the teacher's ongoing antisemitic messages and teaching. We don't need children in Canada being taught shit like that.

And we don't need imams spouting the kind of intolerant crap like death to Jews, as we saw from a couple of Montreal mosques last year, or the one in Vancouver who spouts homophobic and antisemitic sermons, or the idiot in Victoria recently shown saying telling Christians Merry Christmas was worse than murder. There are far too many of these in Canada, all foreign born, and only occasionally revealed since they never give their sermons in English.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

....As an aside, I posted an article earlier today talking about the state of wealth of Blacks in the US, which noted that Blacks who originate elsewhere have far more wealth and higher incomes than Blacks born in the US. The conclusion of the article was that American Blacks don't know hot to handle money to build wealth. Unlike other cultures, like the Japanese, other Asians, Jews, etc. There are identifiable cultures and values which attach themselves to groups and don't seem easily shrugged off. Parents teach their children and they teach their grandchildren.

 

This questionable premise ignores another attribute of American "Blacks" directly related to the topic....the United States has experienced far more organic Islam and Muslims from within for many more decades, compared to Canada and its much touted "multiculturalism".   Islam in America was not created by immigrants or refugees imported to please the UN or "progressive" values.  There are more mosques in New York City than in all of Canada.   As a child, I specifically remember the Nation of Islam (and Fruit of Islam) being an integral part of the 1960's Civil Rights movement and "Black Power", something Canada has never had.    Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, and many others entered mainstream U.S. media and culture generations ago as an American experience, not the perceived external threat reflected in this topic.

So Canada finds itself without a robust cultural experience and ability to accept/assimilate a large number of foreign born Muslims because there is/was no large pre-existing Muslim population to begin with, certainly not Canadian born.    Being forced to accept more foreign born Muslims by Canadian immigration and refugee policies only adds more stress to an underdeveloped cultural ability to do so.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This questionable premise

What questionable premise? If you're talking about the one on Blacks I would suggest you read the citation first.

https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

ignores another attribute of American "Blacks" directly related to the topic....the United States has experienced far more organic Islam and Muslims from within for many more decades, compared to Canada and its much touted "multiculturalism". 

I'm not sure what the relevance is of that. Almost sixty percent of US Muslims are foreign born, which is, I grant you, less than in Canada, but still substantial. But I don't understand why you think that matters to anything OTHER than immigration. Are you suggesting that because the US has more home-grown Muslims there's no need to interview and evaluate the values of those who are prospective immigrants? Because that would seem to run WILDLY counter to that of your beloved president.

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 Islam in America was not created by immigrants or refugees imported to please the UN or "progressive" values. 

Yet money, principally from Saudi Arabia, flows into the United States to pay for mosques, cultural centers and schools, and Saudi paid imams flow with it, along with Saudi religious material, all giving Muslims in America, home-born or not, the harsh, Saudi view of Islam.

Rest is nonsense of no consequence, and not worth responding to.

[bush_cheney2004]

22 minutes ago, Argus said:

What questionable premise? If you're talking about the one on Blacks I would suggest you read the citation first.

 

 

The premise is questionable because the comparison of foreign born nationals to American "Blacks" lacks a serious consideration of slavery and civil rights.    By your own admission, it has little to nothing to do with the actual topic anyway...Muslims in Canada.

 

Quote

I'm not sure what the relevance is of that. Almost sixty percent of US Muslims are foreign born, which is, I grant you, less than in Canada, but still substantial. But I don't understand why you think that matters to anything OTHER than immigration. Are you suggesting that because the US has more home-grown Muslims there's no need to interview and evaluate the values of those who are prospective immigrants? Because that would seem to run WILDLY counter to that of your beloved president.

 

No....it obvious that the USA has more native experience with Islam regardless of immigration and refugees.    Canada lacks the cultural experience and population scale to easily integrate so many foreign born Muslims (and others), even as Trudeau and like minded folk force Canada to do so...ready or not.    Canada's national identity was already fragmented/shaky to begin with before "post nationalism" won an election....fighting off the Yankee hegemon for over 100 years...Asians too....and now feeling threatened by imported Islam/Muslims.

I have made no assertions about the vetting of immigrants in general, Muslim or not.   

 

Quote

Yet money, principally from Saudi Arabia, flows into the United States to pay for mosques, cultural centers and schools, and Saudi paid imams flow with it, along with Saudi religious material, all giving Muslims in America, home-born or not, the harsh, Saudi view of Islam.

 

Correct....Saudi Arabia has long been an ally of the United States.   I don't know much about the foreign relations of Canada to all Muslim nations, but again, I suspect it is less developed and strategic than for the United States, which is consistent with a less developed approach at home as well.     Canada has a much smaller population and far less cultural experience with Islam at the local level, is more easily shocked by a large relative influx of Muslim immigrants (and immigrants in general). 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The premise is questionable because the comparison of foreign born nationals to American "Blacks" lacks a serious consideration of slavery and civil rights.    By your own admission, it has little to nothing to do with the actual topic anyway...Muslims in Canada.

It has to do with group behaviour dynamics due to cultural values and background.

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No....it obvious that the USA has more native experience with Islam regardless of immigration and refugees.    Canada lacks the cultural experience and population scale to easily integrate so many foreign born Muslims (and others), even as Trudeau and like minded folk force Canada to do so...ready or not.    Canada's national identity was already fragmented/shaky to begin with before "post nationalism" won an election....fighting off the Yankee hegemon for over 100 years...Asians too....and now feeling threatened by imported Islam/Muslims.

I have made no assertions about the vetting of immigrants in general, Muslim or not.   

Canada has integrated people from all over the world for quite a long time. The problem, as I see it, is the amount of immigrants coming in was arbitrarily increased for political purposes - repeatedly, to the point 20% of the population is now foreign born as compared to 12.5% in the US. This has naturally  increased tension and anxiety among native born Canadians at the sheer numbers of foreign born, which continue to rise. The US takes in approximately 2.5 times as many immigrants as us but it is 10 times Canada's population and so can much more readily integrate them.

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Correct....Saudi Arabia has long been an ally of the United States.  

Has it? You needed the Saudis when you needed their oil. You no longer do. Has it not struck you that every terrorist group follows the Wahhabi school of Islam the Saudis have spent tens of billions exporting around the world? Have you never examined just what Wahabi Islam has to say about unbelievers?

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

It has to do with group behaviour dynamics due to cultural values and background.

 

...but is not divorced from the historically lower economic and political power baseline.    It can be argued that group behaviour dynamics leaves many Canadian "communities" less prepared to accept an influx of vastly different immigrants/refugees (i.e. Muslims).  

 

Quote

Canada has integrated people from all over the world for quite a long time. The problem, as I see it, is the amount of immigrants coming in was arbitrarily increased for political purposes - repeatedly, to the point 20% of the population is now foreign born as compared to 12.5% in the US. This has naturally  increased tension and anxiety among native born Canadians at the sheer numbers of foreign born, which continue to rise. The US takes in approximately 2.5 times as many immigrants as us but it is 10 times Canada's population and so can much more readily integrate them.

 

Agreed...as I have already stated above.   Canada lacks the population scale and cultural experience for a massive influx of Islam/Muslims.   Hell, Canada is still trying to deal with "aboriginals" with varying degrees of success and failure.  

 

Quote

Has it? You needed the Saudis when you needed their oil. You no longer do. Has it not struck you that every terrorist group follows the Wahhabi school of Islam the Saudis have spent tens of billions exporting around the world? Have you never examined just what Wahabi Islam has to say about unbelievers?

 

Not just oil....far more important strategic interests in the region that Canada is not invested in beyond the sale of LAVs from an American owned defense contractor subsidiary in London, Ontario.    American foreign and domestic policy cannot/will not pivot simply on the real and perceived threats of "radical Islam" in North America or around the world. 

Oil matters to the world's economy, not just the United States....as Dick Cheney explained years ago....the world will  have Islamic terrorism with or without access to ME oil....the choice is clear.    Saudi sweet crude trumps Canada's so called "ethical" oil on world markets.

 

 

[Argus]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...but is not divorced from the historically lower economic and political power baseline.    It can be argued that group behaviour dynamics leaves many Canadian "communities" less prepared to accept an influx of vastly different immigrants/refugees (i.e. Muslims).  

Not intelligently.

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Agreed...as I have already stated above.   Canada lacks the population scale and cultural experience for a massive influx of Islam/Muslims.   Hell, Canada is still trying to deal with "aboriginals" with varying degrees of success and failure.  

True to an extent. I think the issue with dealing with natives is simply political cowardice. You can't make things work if you won't make tough decisions. Trying to get agreement from 600 separate 'nations' is a futile exercise, at best.

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Not just oil....far more important strategic interests in the region

American interest in the region is based on oil, and always has been. There's nothing else there of any importance to the U.S. Even U.S. support of Israel is arguably based on having a western outpost in the midst of all that oil. In any event, the Saudis are not allies of American interests but opponents of them. It is not hard to make the case that it is the Saudis who have provoked religious extremism throughout the Muslim world, and are doing their best to turn every Muslim into a holy warrior who hates unbelievers.

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

American foreign and domestic policy cannot/will not pivot simply on the real and perceived threats of "radical Islam" in North America or around the world. 

You say that as if all kinds of crazy Muslim fanatics aren't working hard to figure out how to get their hands on chemical, biological and nuclear agents to set off in New York or Washington.

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Oil matters to the world's economy, not just the United States....as Dick Cheney explained years ago....the world will  have Islamic terrorism with or without access to ME oil....the choice is clear.    Saudi sweet crude trumps Canada's so called "ethical" oil on world markets.

Then shoot every member of the house of Saud and take over. That, at least, would make sense.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

You say that as if all kinds of crazy Muslim fanatics aren't working hard to figure out how to get their hands on chemical, biological and nuclear agents to set off in New York or Washington.

 

This threat has not impacted Canada's very liberal policies for Muslim immigrants and refugees...perhaps the CN tower is bomb proof ?   The U.S. just convicted and sentenced another terrorist from Canada who wanted to bomb New York in 2016 ( Abdulrahman El Bahnasawy ).   

 

Quote

Then shoot every member of the house of Saud and take over. That, at least, would make sense.

 

Then who would approve the next big juicy Saudi defense contract for Canada ?   The answer to the OP is that Canada is welcoming more Muslims, not fewer.  There will be no Trump in Canada to stem the flow, if only temporarily.    Start building more mosques.....

[Argus]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This threat has not impacted Canada's very liberal policies for Muslim immigrants and refugees...perhaps the CN tower is bomb proof ? 

No, it hasn't. That's the reason for the discussion. I want it to. Do you feel otherwise?

You don't seem to really have any opinion on Canada's immigration and what to do about Muslims so why are you posting?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

No, it hasn't. That's the reason for the discussion. I want it to. Do you feel otherwise?

You don't seem to really have any opinion on Canada's immigration and what to do about Muslims so why are you posting?

 

Canada should do whatever is in Canada's best interest, regardless of what I think about the matter.    Invoking Trumpian/American policies and rhetoric about the topic in Canadian media (plus the aside on American "Blacks" here) is the norm and quite expected, hence my interest. 

Trudeau can pay Muslim terrorists $10.5 million (CAD) if he wants to.

 

[Queenmandy85]

The real concern is not the label, it is fundamentalism. Whether it is Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, or Sikh, all have their militant fundamentalists. Look at the Buddhist attacks on Muslims in Burma, Jews and Muslims attacking each other in Israel / Palestine, or the Hindu attacks on Muslims in India. The majority of members of all these religions just want to get along. Islam is very similar to the Roman Catholic church. Both have a very positive effect on society but I can make the argument that shows the RC's as anti-women, anti-semetic, with its own record of terrorism. The RC Church actively campaigns to void assimilation. You can argue that it is a tiny minority but the same is true of Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism.

Side note: regarding your "Muslim terrorists $10.5 million", if a gang invaded your neighbourhood and killed everyone except one badly wounded teenager, who defended himself by killing one of the invaders, you would call it self-defence. Try substituting Palestinians for the Americans and Israeli for the "Muslim Terrorist" and you can see what I mean.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Queenmandy85

[DogOnPorch]

20 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 

Side note: regarding your "Muslim terrorists $10.5 million", if a gang invaded your neighbourhood and killed everyone except one badly wounded teenager, who defended himself by killing one of the invaders, you would call it self-defence. Try substituting Palestinians for the Americans and Israeli for the "Muslim Terrorist" and you can see what I mean.

 

So Omar is from Afghanistan is what you're saying?

[Argus]

24 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The real concern is not the label, it is fundamentalism.

Yes and no. Fundamentalist western Christians don't blow things up, nor go on rampages stabbing and shooting and running people over because they're 'unbelievers'.

And if you think that news of such incidents, over and over and over and over again, because they seem to happen every few days, has not influenced the public view of Muslims you're painfully naive. I don't think a fundamentalist Christian would approve of me, but I don't fear he'd kill me.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So Omar is from Afghanistan is what you're saying?

You've inadvertently, I think, put your thumb on one of the problem points with Muslims. Time and time again we've seen rage from Muslims because of what they perceive as the way 'the west' has attacked this or that Muslim group in a country far away they've never been to and know nothing about. Those ignorant vermin who butchered the two Scandinavian girls in Morocco were uneducated rabble; street vendors and carpenters. Their claim "This is for Syria, here are the heads of your God. This is in revenge for our brothers in Hajin'" is similar to what other such Muslims have done in that they had almost certainly never even seen Syria or Hajin, but felt this sense of tight brotherhood with other Muslims against all outsiders, and a sense of outrage those outsiders (in this case simply westerners) had killed some. And that anger was simply for anyone of the same religion as those who had attacked "Islam". It didn't even matter these girls were from countries that weren't involved. They were Christians, and thus the enemy. This is not the way Christians think of things. Nobody here is liable to hunt down and kill Muslims because of the mistreatment of Christians in Muslim countries. But it IS the way a significant number of Muslims appear to see things.

[Queenmandy85]

The attacks on termination clinics?

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The attacks on termination clinics?

If they happened often you'd see a growing distrust for fundamentalist Christians too. But you can count the numbers of deaths on your fingers. Forty years of opposition to abortion clinics and the deaths are in single digits.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Argus

[Queenmandy85]

16 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So Omar is from Afghanistan is what you're saying?

No, he was born in Canada. I don't get what you are saying.

[DogOnPorch]

12 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

No, he was born in Canada. I don't get what you are saying.

 

You seem to be saying invaders attacked his land.

Leading to the question: are there such things as "Muslim Lands"?

Edited January 1, 2019 by DogOnPorch

[Queenmandy85]

38 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You seem to be saying invaders attacked his land.

Leading to the question: are there such things as "Muslim Lands"?

No, I said they attacked the neighbourhood he was living in. A group of armed men attacked the village and killed every one there except one kid who was badly wounded. As they approached him, presumably to finish him off (he would be justified in believing) he defended himself and managed to kill one of the men who he believed were going to kill him. If he were a Canadian kid living in Israel and the attackers were Palestinians, would you still call him a terrorist? If these Palestinians then tortured him and the Canadian Government collaborated with the Palestinians in the torture, don't you think he should receive compensation?

Edited January 1, 2019 by Queenmandy85

[Queenmandy85]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

If they happened often you'd see a growing distrust for fundamentalist Christians too. But you can count the numbers of deaths on your fingers. Forty years of opposition to abortion clinics and the deaths are in single digits.

I'll give you that. How many Canadians have been killed by muslim terrorists and how many have been killed by sikhs? The worst terrorist attack in Canadian history was perpetrated by Sikh fundamentalists. Why do we not fear Sikhs? Because, just like Muslims, the violence is perpetrated by a few idiots. The Catholic Church did not condone the attacks on Protestants in Ulster, the greater Islamic community condemns violence by extremists, as does the Sikh, Jewish and Buddhist community.

[Kerfuffle]

The better question is what do we do about religion.