Belinda DEFECTS!?!?!

[takeanumber]

I agree with Kimmy:

In hte past, I have been attacked by my friends on the left for my admiration of Belinda Stronach. She stood up for her values, especially on women, youth, international competitiveness and same sex marriage, and you know, I remember seeing her cowed.

Well -- those are important issues. And I think Kimmy got it right when she points out that Belinda was a big bridge to un-married women.

The cons do very well among married women, but their standing with single women is going to be very much in trouble now, especially in Ontario, now that Belinda is gone.

So...these references to anybody who has different concerns than they do is 'unprincipled' to Stephen Harper.

Well Harper, I think you've managed to put the issue of 'women' on the front burner here...good luck with that.

Moreover, the appointment of an 'outsider' is important. Brison has been terrific when it comes to cleaning up Public works....imagine... a year without a scandal.

I'm very optimistic about Belinda cleaning up after Gomery. Such a terrific idea.

[Black Dog]

Ya I know I meant to say it will increase support for western separation. Little by little support for it grows. If the libs win again it'll help, if they keep implementing programs like Kyoto and gun control it helps, if Quebec goes it helps....

Whast's western separation at now? Less than 10 per cent? It would take a lot more than a political scandal to get it even close to the levels needed for it to be a serious issue.

Rural Alberta != the west.

I'm not sure how we've squandered a golden opportunity. By not becoming "Liberal light"? The true strikes against us are that Harper is falsely portrayed by the media as not being from Ontario, being extreme, being boring (ironically this week he's somehow "too angry"). It's a tough fight

The Cons are Liberal lite (albeit with a tinge of social conservatism that most Canadian find downright creepy). That's the problem. People either didn't see the difference, so they would rather stick with the devil the know, or they're uncomfortable with the Cons stance on issues like gay marriage and Canada/U.S. relations. Quite simply, there's nothing compelling about the Conservatives, starting with Harper.

[I miss Reagan]

My support for the CPC hinges on my belief that they're a "big tent" with room for moderates... today's events make me wonder if the tent is as big as I thought. I don't think you can dismiss how important she was in the party, IMR. She wasn't just "Canada's Paris Hilton". She was also the party's bridge to more moderate voters like myself. She was also the party's bridge to young female voters like myself.

It does but at what point is a moderate conservative just a liberal? Her excuse for leaving is the vote to bring down the government? Then she adds a few disparaging comments about Harper, but oh she "doesn't want to get personal". You have to ask yourself what are the real reasons she's leaving. I think it has to do with the realization that the Con's won't do very well in Ontario in the next election and that she barely won last time. And most importantly she's been bought off by the liberals. As for being a Paris Hilton, though obviously an exageration, the resemblances are strikingly similar. She was born into her status and wealth, she's a socialite, and she doesn't come off as very bright. I'm all for young women in the party, but I've always felt besides her vote in parliament, she was a liablity rather than an asset.

[Shakeyhands]

"no Grand principles, just ambition"

pfft.

Julie Van Dusen asked her directly:  will you run for the Liberal leadership?

She replied "No" without hesitation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed,

I can't imagine that someone who is worth Millions upon millions has to be that much of an "opportunist" A weak comment from a weak would be leader. Again it shows him for what he really is.

[August1991]

Some quick, initial thoughts. (I'm busy now.)

I did think that Belinda.ca would be a moderating influence in the party, and also someone who was critical in the CPC's efforts to reach former PC voters. Losing her probably deals a serious blow. This makes me less likely to support the CPC. I'm going to have to do a lot of reflection.

Belinda Stronach? Make you reflect?

Nothing Belinda Stronach could say or do would make me reflect - or, put another way, they merit as much attention as many posts on this forum.

Belinda Stronach has never studied at university. Her dad made a pile of money. She's a lightweight.

I never wanted her to lead the Tories.

----

This is why the Liberal Party reigns supreme in Canada. It exists solely for power. Anyone who wants power in Canada, joins the Liberals. (Tories who cross the floor for this reason such as Jack Horner rarely do well.)

-----

Where did this term "defect" come from? I think Churchill crossed the floor twice, (and called himself a double rat in the process.)

----

Goodbye Quebec

Goodbye Alberta

Bollocks.

I agree with BD, on this one. Bollocks.

However, if the Liberals manage to pull their pin out of the fire this way, it will be another patch.

Justin Trudeau (of all people) stated accurately that there are serious problems with the Liberal Party and with the federal state.

There is some kind of irony that Belinda Stronach is perceived as an indication that is all is right with the world. Which leads to my last point:

----

Are people aware of who sits on Magna International's Board of Directors?

[I miss Reagan]

Whast's western separation at now? Less than 10 per cent? It would take a lot more than a political scandal to get it even close to the levels needed for it to be a serious issue.

You're right it's not going to happen all at once. Like I said, just a little at a time.

Rural Alberta != the west.

Now, now you know it's a lot more than that. Hey care to make a wager on "land slide Annie" in the next election?

[takeanumber]

As for being a Paris Hilton, though obviously an exageration, the resemblances are strikingly similar. She was born into her status and wealth, she's a socialite, and she doesn't come off as very bright.

Alright Reagan, since I tend to believe in people, I'll believe you that that is what you intended to say with the Hilton comment.

-----------

Does this defection make any difference to the angry men who typically vote for the Conservative party?

No.

But we already know how angry men and their angry wives are going to vote.

They're going to vote for the Cons.

And I don't think that it's just about the scandal that they're angry about. They've been angry for a very long time. Married women have a chip on their shoulder about a number of programs. Certain demographics of men: namely low education Western, religious men, have been angry since the 1960s about, well, everything...the direction of the country, the state of the society, and probably the biggest thing: the loss of their primacy in society. They've watched the Charter eat away at their priveledged status, and naturally, that makes them angry.

So, that's fine, they'll vote for the Cons, that's their right.

Now, what about the other people?

Well, this is where Belinda comes in. See, we knew that many people are angry at Liberals for the mess they've caused.

However, things are pretty good in the country right now: it's growing, wages are good, and new programs are comming in.

The goal becomes: how do we keep the Liberals in check (humble) while cleaning up the mess and ensuring that it never happens again, while ensuring the status quo?

Belinda's defection is important: people who want the status quo on social progress will feel better voting for the Liberals now, and Belinda is an outsider that can clean up the mess. Combine this with another minority government with a seemingly imminent Conservative losses in Ontario, and you have a stable NDP-Liberal coalition that will result in the fufillment of the goal.

The cons goal: to reverse social progress, is directly at odds with the will of the majority, and it's always easier to attack the person who embodies those values than to address the real problem.

[I miss Reagan]

I can't imagine that someone who is worth Millions upon millions has to be that much of an "opportunist"

As a Liberal, you should understand that opportunity doesn't just include money but power as well and in Belinda's case probably popularity.

This is why the Liberal Party reigns supreme in Canada. It exists solely for power. Anyone who wants power in Canada, joins the Liberals.

Exactly.

Justin Trudeau (of all people) stated accurately that there are serious problems with the Liberal Party and with the federal state.

I'll never understand why that little punk get's any press.

[Guest eureka]

I am not a particular fan of Belinda Stronach as a possible senior politician. I don't think she has the qualities for that.

However, in my opinion, this will turn out to be important from an angle that is being overlooked in the discussion. That angle is the aid for cities promised by the Liberals.

If they play it properly, the Liberals may well make inroads in the West. The mayors of a number of cities have already expressed their displeasure with the Conservatives opposition to the Budget for that reason. Stronach has made an issue of that.

The mayors may be emboldened and more supportive of the Liberals - enough to make their feelings known in the next election.

Stronach is right in that Harper and his inner circle have no understanding of Canada and its needs.

I would not be surprised to see an impact in Quebec as well. The crossing of the floor at this time may make many Quebeckers reconsider and face the probability of serious consequences for the shift to the Bloc.. The psychological aspect will be interesting in its workings.

[takeanumber]

Indeed, I thought her blasting Harper for aligning with the Bloc was interesting.

[Black Dog]

This is why the Liberal Party reigns supreme in Canada. It exists solely for power. Anyone who wants power in Canada, joins the Liberals.

Sure, just like the Cons exist soley for gaining power a goal that, if acheived, would evolve into maintaining power. Is anyone so naive as to think either party has any grand ambition beyond keeping their place at the trough or muscling in for a feed?

[kimmy]

My support for the CPC hinges on my belief that they're a "big tent" with room for moderates... today's events make me wonder if the tent is as big as I thought. I don't think you can dismiss how important she was in the party, IMR. She wasn't just "Canada's Paris Hilton". She was also the party's bridge to more moderate voters like myself. She was also the party's bridge to young female voters like myself.

It does but at what point is a moderate conservative just a liberal?

My support for the CPC was never based on the notion that they were very different from the Liberals in terms of social and economic policy... I've always believed that in fact they *aren't* fundamentally very different in those areas (for reasons Black Dog expressed quite well in another thread.) If a government was just social and economic policy, I could support the Liberals without hesitation. My support for the CPC has always been based on my belief that they're a lot like the Liberals, except without the parts that disgust me. I believe that continuing the political status quo in Ottawa is killing this country very slowly through stagnation and cynicism and disaffection, and perhaps despite Martin's (possibly) sincere intentions, he's still the status quo. Despite his talk of renewal and reform and change, none of it has translated into action, and if he's shown me one thing during his tenure as Prime Minister, it's that he has gonads the size of Tic-Tacs. I just don't believe he has the proverbial stones to attempt any sort of meaningful change to this country's institutions or to take on Ottawa's culture. I think that the way things have been done will continue to be the way things are done if Paul Martin is returned as PM. These are the kinds of things I continue to see when I think of the prospect of another Liberal government, and I find the prospect depressing.

The defection of Belinda.ca to the Liberals doesn't cause me increased optimism for my expectations of a Liberal government. But it's causing me to question whether the Conservatives are really as viable an alternative as I'd thought. It certainly makes me question Harper's ability as a leader.

Her excuse for leaving is the vote to bring down the government?

Attempting to defeat the budget is a dangerous political move. They were unable to separate the Atlantic agreement from the budget, so voting that down could really limit CPC potential for growth in that region. As eureka notes, voting against the provisions for funding of cities could be dangerous in urban ridings. And forcing an election right now is just not a popular move with the electorate. I honestly don't understand why Harper was so single-minded on it... it appeared to be a political mistake, from my point of view.

As for being a Paris Hilton, though obviously an exageration, the resemblances are strikingly similar.  She was born into her status and wealth, she's a socialite, and she doesn't come off as very bright.  I'm all for young women in the party, but I've always felt besides her vote in parliament, she was a liablity rather than an asset.

I think she's an asset for a couple of very good reasons that I've already explained.

-k

[Black Dog]

Y'know, it just struck me how sordid this whole thing is.

First Peter screwed Joe to get with Stephen. Then Belinda and Peter started screwing each other. Meanwhile, Stephen and Gilles got together in hopes of screwing Paul but then Belinda turned around and screwed both Peter and Stephen by jumping into bed with Paul.

And, in the end, we're all screwed.

[kimmy]

I would not be surprised to see an impact in Quebec as well. The crossing of the floor at this time may make many Quebeckers reconsider and face the probability of serious consequences for the shift to the Bloc.. The psychological aspect will be interesting in its workings.

This, on the otherhand... strikes me as something that not even the most optimistic Liberal party spinmeisters could say with a straight face.

I doubt they place such stock in the actions of a unilingual anglo MP from Ontario that they'll reconsider their entire political outlook based on this morning's events. It might even make them more cynical (ie: "Now she's a cabinet minister and a big star. They bought her. Typical Liberal politics.")

-k

[takeanumber]

I think this whole thing will really focus in on how Harper "doesn't get it", and the party "doesn't get it."

------------

On Peter McKay: Got Credibility?

I'd love to have McKay come forward and give a talk about loyalty.

It would be delicious!

[takeanumber]

The Conservative Media (CFCN) is calling it "Belinda's Betrayal" and portraying it as though she was bought off.

Typical.

[Bakunin]

Now that the hope is gone, no reform is possible... there is no reason to stay in this country. We need a referendum fast and alberta if you want to join us to create a new country, your welcome

[Melanie_]

Way to go, Belinda! This was a brilliant move; bringing in someone untainted by Adscam to follow through on the inquiry gives a great deal of credibility to Martin. Also, it shows that the far right Cons are not willing to be flexible or to try to moderate their policies; what will their stand be now on same sex marriage and women's rights with one less moderate to stand against the hard liners?

BTW, takeanumber, as a married woman I wonder what chip I have on my shoulder? Otherwise, I agree with everything you've written, but if I have an opportunity to complain that I'm missing, I want to know about it!!

[I miss Reagan]

Y'know, it just struck me how sordid this whole thing is.

First Peter screwed Joe to get with Stephen. Then Belinda and Peter started screwing each other. Meanwhile, Stephen and Gilles got together in hopes of screwing Paul but then Belinda turned around and screwed both Peter and Stephen by jumping into bed with Paul.

And, in the end, we're all screwed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's actually pretty funny.

Now that the hope is gone, no reform is possible... there is no reason to stay in this country. We need a referendum fast and alberta if you want to join us to create a new country, your welcome.

Thanks for the invite. I've been saying it's a good idea. I'd vote for Duceppe.

BTW, takeanumber, as a married woman I wonder what chip I have on my shoulder?

psst. maybe if we ignore him he'll go away

[Pateris]

Methinks it may be time to start flying the Stars and Stripes in my yard in Calgary.

[takeanumber]

BTW, takeanumber, as a married woman I wonder what chip I have on my shoulder? Otherwise, I agree with everything you've written, but if I have an opportunity to complain that I'm missing, I want to know about it!! biggrin.gif

Sorry if I implied all married women. I know from the studies that married women are far more likely to vote for the Cons than other women. When you run some segmentation analysis, you discover that it's tied to attitudes towards social programs and 'traditional' family values.

Namely, married women see a large portion of their household income leave their house to fund social programs that they do not benefit from -- the result is that they vote for parties that are antithetical to social programs, ie. Conservatives. That's where the chip originates from.

So, to retract and restate, there is a propensity for married women to vote Conservative.

[I miss Reagan]

But it's causing me to question whether the Conservatives are really as viable an alternative as I'd thought. It certainly makes me question Harper's ability as a leader.

The only response that comes to mind is that from the wise little green guy:

"...beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." -Yoda

Methinks it may be time to start flying the Stars and Stripes in my yard in Calgary.

Not yet my friend, start with the Alberta flag. I figure we could have a decent Taiwan type rogue state. Imagine the fire wall plus. Central Canada would have no way to take our resources if we didn't give them to them.

Sorry if I implied all married women.

Perhaps it would serve you well to quit with the generalizations and blanket statements.

[Newfie Canadian]

I read about half the posts in this thread but not all, so if I'm stating something that has already been said, sorry.

It is, as I've said before all about perception, and it's not looking good for the CPC.

Here you have a young, intelligent, successful woman who jumped the CPC ship, which arguably was on it's way to forming the next government, for the Liberal ship, which is arguably headed for the Laurentian Trench.

People, ordinary people, are looking at this and wondering what's going on inside the CPC, if someone like Stronach is wililng to leave. They are filling in the blanks for themselves, and I wager they are not painting a pretty picture of the CPC, whether it's right or wrong I don't know.

And now PM PM, with smile from ear to ear, looks like a leader with whom Stronach, a young, intelligent, successful woman, can be comfortable with.

Perception, perception, perception.

[Black Dog]

Now that the hope is gone, no reform is possible... there is no reason to stay in this country. We need a referendum fast and alberta if you want to join us to create a new country, your welcome

Methinks it may be time to start flying the Stars and Stripes in my yard in Calgary.

I have a better idea: why don't you pack your bags and go. It'd be a lot cheaper than breaking up the country and fewer people would miss you. Buh bye.

Not yet my friend, start with the Alberta flag. I figure we could have a decent Taiwan type rogue state. Imagine the fire wall plus. Central Canada would have no way to take our resources if we didn't give it to them.

Sure and maybe you could get the U.S. to help safeguard the oil, since they are the bigest users of oil and gas, and since so much money from Alberta's resources already flows to the U.S....

[I miss Reagan]

Sure and maybe you could get the U.S. to help safeguard the oil, since they are the bigest users of oil and gas, and since so much money from Alberta's resources already flows to the U.S....

Now you're thinkin Black Dog. I knew you'd come around sooner or later.

Newf, I think you might be right about the perception thing. We'll have to see how it plays out in the next couple days. Perhaps people will see her as an opportunist, though I have little faith in both the media and Canadians.