Belinda DEFECTS!?!?!

[takeanumber]

True, the Cons need to realize that they are under the microscope of the Canadian media. We just need to accept that there is a double standard with respect to politics in the media.

See, a demonstration of the logic that I predicted:

downplay the fact that the cons are demeaning women, and then blame the media.

And pointing out that Brison was called a 'whore' doesn't make the fact that Belinda was called a 'whore' and 'dipstick' any more right.

Be outraged at Stronach, but to use derogatory words towards women like that...classless, crass, and it shows the true nature of Conservatives.

[The Terrible Sweal]

As a newbie here I'm wondering who we might expect to cross the floor tomorrow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Newbie, I fear your monicker may become an oxymoron if you end up sticking around.

[Guest eureka]

Follow your head, Kimmy, and attend more closely to what I tell you!

[I miss Reagan]

Follow your head, Kimmy, and attend more closely to what I tell you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Liberalism at it's best, don't think for yourself, think how we want you to think.

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." -William Buckley

[Black Dog]

Ok let me rephrase for ya BD: Ooops, what was I thinking, if the CBC seeks out a feminist prof from U of A who says it's sexist it must be

A sentiment shared by observers here and in other circles I've seen. Just because you won't see something doesn't mean it's not there. It would also help if you later didn't undermine your own point to wit:

Perhaps she should be less concerned about wearing a new outfit everytime she appears in public or the Martha Stewart esque pastel colors she uses in her campaign and more concerned about learning the issues. I remember her discussing in an interview how difficult it was to find different outfits to wear every day. I remember her in interviews fliping her hair and grining as the interviewer asked her about how her son feels that she's described as 'hot'

But I'm sure Paul Martin would field questions about his looks and Stephen Harper would get asked about what kind of product he uses to acheive his unique "World War One Prussian Army helmet" hairdo, right?

[ScottBrison]

Liberalism at it's best, don't think for yourself, think how we want you to think.

Don't go to the light Kimmy, for heaven's sake stay with us!!

Ahem?

[I miss Reagan]

Liberalism at it's best, don't think for yourself, think how we want you to think.

Don't go to the light Kimmy, for heaven's sake stay with us!!

Ahem?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The difference is I was joking. I know she is an independent thinker, and that admonitions on this forum don't have much sway with her. You liberals prey on the slow and the media inspired masses.

[ScottBrison]

Liberalism at it's best, don't think for yourself, think how we want you to think.

Don't go to the light Kimmy, for heaven's sake stay with us!!

Ahem?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The difference is I was joking. I know she is an independent thinker, and that admonitions on this forum don't have much sway with her. You liberals prey on the slow and the media inspired masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, we prey on the informed. Unlike the tories who made a big fuss out of voting for C-43 and against C-48 even though a vote on either destroys the whole budget.

I bet the people of the Atlantic Provinces would be interested to know the Tories tried to decieve them, just like they tried to decieve Canada by saying something that wasn't a confidence motion was.

Coup D'etat anyone?

[Technocrat]

The difference is I was joking. I know she is an independent thinker, and that admonitions on this forum don't have much sway with her. You liberals prey on the slow and the media inspired masses.

Those are some choice words. Where did you here that from FOX? Bill O'Reilly? Rush?

If one want to play the prey game... one could also state that conservatives prey upon the uninformed masses. Spreading their brand of conservative populism.

of course the latter statement being the one based in reality.

Then again if one does not look to the media for information about an event that happens far away where would one turn for such information? Answer that one? If one cannot turn to the media for at least some form of information who should people look to?

Im curious because most people rely on media out of neccesity not out of choice, it is of course the medias job to inform the public as to what is going on in this great world of ours. Apparently the conservatives would rather have an uninformed populace... sounds kind of orwellian doesn't it?

"The citizen of Oceania is not allowed to know anything of the tenets of the other two philosphies, but he is taught to execrate them as barbarous outrages upon morality and common sense. —pg 162 1984

[Argus]

I find it amusing that so many conservatives are accusing Stronach of abandoning her principles for pure ambition.  Joining a party that may yet fall in two days is not the best way to realize one's ambition.  The Liberals may very well lose the next election.  Stronach knows all this and chose to leave the Conservatives anyway.

But they may well win, too. There is absolutely no way to say who is going to win the next election. And how long the next parliament will last. However, the Liberals have been in power with very few breaks for most of the last half century. So even if you figure they'll lose the next election to a tory minority, you'll probably bet on them winning the one after that a short time later.

It actually takes a principled stand for her to say that she cannot continue to support the path of the Conservatives and that she is sticking to her principles,

Unless, of course, she is lying through her teeth, and simply had her speech writer make something up to justify a decision which was out of pure self interest and ambition. Which I suspect is the case.

[Argus]

She doesn't strike me as duplicitous, just very ambitious (no harm there).  She read a boiler-plate statement written by others.  We are far, far from the political skills of a Pierre Trudeau, Rene Levesque, Robert Bourassa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's what it looked like to me. Those weren't her words. And she hasn't learned much about public speaking since I last saw her at the leadership contest. I suspect that if this parliament lasts she'll be eaten alive during question period. Or else she'll give boiler plate statements and refuse to deviate from them at all.

[Argus]

I would not call Belinda Stronach particularly intelligent or succesful - unless you measure success by how wealthy a family you get yourself born to.

Which was fine when she was a tory, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which was fine when she was an ordinary MP, with little more responsibility than passing on constituent complaints to various ministries and going to bake sales and flea markets. But as minister of one of the largest ministries in the federal government I suspect she'll be in way over her head. She hasn't even learned how government operates yet.

[Argus]

You sound like an idiot when you make comments like this, you really do.

You really don't 'get it' do you Reagan?

Actually, he's just stating the obvious.

"Prostitute" and "whore" are derogatory towards women in general,

Whore is not a word confined to women. I find it extraordinarily sexist of you to try and insist only women can be whores or prostitutes. Many people, including myself, called Scott Brisson a whore when he crossed the floor. Anyone who sells themselves, throws away the principals they said they believed in, in exchange for some kind of personal gain can be termed a whore. And is.

[Argus]

You are so full of $hit it isn't even funny. You know damn well it wasn't meant in a sexual sense or meant as derogatory against women. She sold herself.

I've seen sly innuendos and sexist invective directed at Stronach that you'd never see towards a male politician of any stripe. One columnist suggested her choice of political parties is no different than her choosing between Prada or Gucci shoes. Did Peter McKay get called a whore when he sole out the PC's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

McKay did what he did for the sake of the party, not for personal gain. And McKay isn't known as a little rich boy whose daddy gave him everything in life, including his job.

[I miss Reagan]

Technocrat? As one who seems to defend the liberals I would have thought you'd choose a more appropriate moniker say, like, Kleptocrat.

Then again if one does not look to the media for information about an event that happens far away where would one turn for such information? Answer that one? If one cannot turn to the media for at least some form of information who should people look to?

Im curious because most people rely on media out of neccesity not out of choice, it is of course the medias job to inform the public as to what is going on in this great world of ours.

I prefer the situation where people are able to get their information from many different sources and opposing viewpoints. In Canada we generally get one monochromatic view of events. The tone of reporting in the media is very liberaly biased. There are those on this forum who almost violently oppose this notion but I highly doubt these people have spent a lot of time where there is total freedom of the press.

Apparently the conservatives would rather have an uninformed populace... sounds kind of orwellian doesn't it?

No we'd much rather have an informed populace which could think logically beyond the myopic socialist view of the world. Rather it is the Libs who want ignorant people: "The philosophy of the Liberal Party is very simple - say anything, think anything, or better still, do not think at all, but put us in power because it is we who can govern you best." -Trudeau

[Argus]

Ohh silly silly conservatives.  With a leader like Stephen Harper what do you expect from the rest of Canada.  The man clearly does NOT command respect, for one usually has to earn it first.  He is NOT a statesman, this is just another shining example of why he is not cut out for Canada's top job.    Think about it, can you imagine this man going oversees and representing Canada?  The other world leaders would have a collective WTF happened to Canada moment .

Oh yes, I see it. If only the Tories had elected someone wise and honest and thoughtful and charismatic and well-spoken like oh, Jean Chretien, say.

"I have da guy in my cabinet he look like a Chinese too!"

I'm sure the Chinese were real impressed with that one. Not to mention the Africans when he said he liked Black people because of their "big white smiles".

[Guest eureka]

If I were to prey on the slow, I would offer to help you mark your ballot.

[Argus]

Political watcher says Stronach backlash sexist

Trimble said the candidate's aspirations were often ridiculed, her qualifications trivialized, and her youth and looks the subject of vulgar and excessive obsession.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True. But she was someone whose daddy gave her everything in life, who had nothing, including an education, to support her contention for leader of one of Canada's two main parties. She was pretty, and that was basically it. She was not well-spoken, nor well-read. During her early forays with the media during her run at the Tory leadership she was embarrassingly out to lunch on major issues of the day - hadn't a clue.

You tell me what her qualifications are to be minister of HRDC and to be overseeing the governmental changes implmented after the Gomery Commision?

[I miss Reagan]

Oh yes, I see it. If only the Tories had elected someone wise and honest and thoughtful and charismatic and well-spoken like oh, Jean Chretien, say.

"I have da guy in my cabinet he look like a Chinese too!"

I'm sure the Chinese were real impressed with that one. Not to mention the Africans when he said he liked Black people because of their "big white smiles".

So true! Can you imagine if a Conservative said something like that? It reminds me of Hilary Clinton when she claimed that if the US didn't have East Indians there'd be no one to run the corner stores. Or how about the liberal talk radio host who called Condi Rice Aunt Jemima. Or how about the dems who called Colin Powell an uncle Tom. No front page news, no outrage, barely any mention.

[Argus]

Ooops, what was I thinking, if the CBC says it's sexist it must be

Let me explain something you don't seem to get. See, there's this thing called the media. The media employs reporters to write what's called news. Reporters in turn talk to people who know about the subject at hand. These people are called sources. The information these sources give is referered to as a quote. These quotes do not necessarily represent the views of the reporter or the media they work for. In conclusion, to cite the position of a single source as evidence of the media's bias is and incorrect.

Clear enough?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is why, if you're any kind of reporter at all, you go and seek out the "sources" who will say what you want said.

[I miss Reagan]

True. But she was someone whose daddy gave her everything in life, who had nothing, including an education, to support her contention for leader of one of Canada's two main parties. She was pretty, and that was basically it. She was not well-spoken, nor well-read. During her early forays with the media during her run at the Tory leadership she was embarrassingly out to lunch on major issues of the day - hadn't a clue

That's the whole thing is she got her position because of who she is, not because of any real contribution she's made. It's because she's rich and has blond hair. And the fact that she's only in politics 11 months before she switches teams should be embarassing for her. It's not like the party has evolved for years and years. It's more like a spoiled brat who couldn't buy leadership so she's taking her ball and going to play with someone else. If the leader was really taking the party in the wrong direction why didn't she stay and fix it from within? I guess she gave it longer than she gave her college career.

[August1991]

True, the Cons need to realize that they are under the microscope of the Canadian media. We just need to accept that there is a double standard with respect to politics in the media.

See, a demonstration of the logic that I predicted:

downplay the fact that the cons are demeaning women, and then blame the media.

And pointing out that Brison was called a 'whore' doesn't make the fact that Belinda was called a 'whore' and 'dipstick' any more right.

Be outraged at Stronach, but to use derogatory words towards women like that...classless, crass, and it shows the true nature of Conservatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Response?

Belinda Stronach had barely made her debut as a Liberal yesterday when like-minded callers were pre-emptively phoning Toronto radio stations to bemoan the sexist nature of anyone who might in the ensuing days dare to label the woman a political whore.

Oh, how very cute, and how very familiar: It is never enough for the Liberal Party of Canada, its henchmen or supporters, to let the people decide what they will make of a given situation.  The good Liberal always attempts to dictate the very language of what will, and what won't, constitute the parameters of fair comment and reasonable discussion thereafter.

....

Ms. Stronach changed parties on the very eve of the most important vote of Paul Martin's government, and slipped straight into the warm waters of cabinet - in the position, no less, as the minister in charge of democratic renewal and of implementing the recomenndations of the Gomery inquiry.

As an aside, this is surely akin to putting the hen in charge of the fox house.

Those words are clearly not mine. They are Christie Blatchford's. A woman! I suggest you go over and get a subscription to read the rest of her column.

BTW, the way, you'll also get to read Margaret Wente's column which is just as scathing - in a similar "sexist" way.

TalkNumb, you're a bully. You insist that you have the right to dictate how others can talk about Belinda's decision to cross the floor.

As far as I can see, Belinda has two things going for her: her Dad's money and she's a woman. If you stopped the average female high school graduate walking down Yonge Street in Toronto, I'm sure she'd do just as well as Belinda. Well, she'd probably be more modest about her opinions, or importance to the country.

----

In 1978, Albertan Jack Horner deserted Joe Clark's Tories and crossed the floor, becoming Trudeau's Industry Minister. Horner wanted power, said Clark would never get it. The Liberals were in trouble (they subsequently lost the election) and Trudeau was desperate, particularly for proof that he could get along with an Albertan.

The current situation is not exactly identical but I see a key difference. Whatever you want to say about Trudeau, he had a few central principles upon which he would not compromise. Trudeau wanted to use power to further those principles.

I honestly see no principles at all in Martin. He has both Lapierre and Dion in his cabinet. He has introduced in the same session budgets acceptable to the Tories and the NDP.

I fear that many English Canadians, particularly in Ontario, will see Stronach's crossing the floor as more evidence that the Liberals are the Party of Power. The Liberals are a Party of Winners. All is right with the world.

It's not. The Liberal Party of Canada has very serious problems and Canada itself has very serious problems. Belinda is not part of the solution. (David Peterson described Belinda as a non-partisan, solution-oriented person who would feel more comfortable as a Liberal. You know what? I think Peterson actually believes it!)

The more I think about this, the more I realize that a lightweight like David Peterson organizing the party change of a lightweight like Belinda is truly ironic. I also suspect that Harper is truly relieved to be done with her.

Belinda is no Margaret Thatcher, no Indira Gandhi, no Golda Meir, no Condoleeza Rice. Heck, she's not even a Hillary Rodham.

Canada is in for some very rough sailing in the next few years. On the balance of evidence, people like PM PM and Belinda will make an absolute mess of it. I feel sorry for English Canada if these are the best leaders it can come up with.

[takeanumber]

Those words are clearly not mine. They are Christie Blatchford's. A woman! I suggest you go over and get a subscription to read the rest of her column.

BTW, the way, you'll also get to read Margaret Wente's column which is just as scathing - in a similar "sexist" way.

TalkNumb, you're a bully. You insist that you have the right to dictate how others can talk about Belinda's decision to cross the floor.

Why sure!

Golly Gee! If Margaret Wente says something, and she's backed up by Christie Blatchford, then it MUST BE ALRIGHT TO CALL A WOMAN A WHORE THEN!

Gosh, thanks for informing me. I thought that respect for women was something basic, you know, a trait of good people.

But since 2 (two) women, representing ALL women say it's okay, and two strong right wing women at that, who have never, ever, ever have had to put THEIR foot in their mouth, say that it's alright, then golly gee, it must be okay.

(And that was sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

I don't care what 2 right wing women, or forty right wing women say...that kind of language directed towards a woman is wrong. It just is.

----

TalkNumb, you're a bully. You insist that you have the right to dictate how others can talk about Belinda's decision to cross the floor

I have no problem with people complaining about her crossing the floor.

My problem is the MANNER.

Is it ever acceptable to call a woman a whore?

If you answer yes, I'm sure that you're mother is proud of you. I sure as hell was raised better than that.

And Conservatives have the gaul to say that they defend 'traditional values'. You sure as hell don't defend, nor represent, MY traditional values.

So tell me August, is it acceptable to ever call a woman a whore?

While your at it, perhaps you can tell us if it's ever alright to use other slurs...racial and those against homosexuals?

If not, then what's the difference between using a word that is hateful of women, and a word that is hurtful of another minority.

And, if you can't resolve that contradiction, then you really, really don't get it.

[I miss Reagan]

Oh, how very cute, and how very familiar: It is never enough for the Liberal Party of Canada, its henchmen or supporters, to let the people decide what they will make of a given situation.  The good Liberal always attempts to dictate the very language of what will, and what won't, constitute the parameters of fair comment and reasonable discussion thereafter.

So true, yet so disheartening since they truly do set the rules of the game as they go.

TalkNumb, you're a bully. You insist that you have the right to dictate how others can talk about Belinda's decision to cross the floor.

Another who makes the rules as he/she goes. It's ok for him/her to generalize and make blanket statements, but watch out if you fire back in kind.

In 1978, Albertan Jack Horner deserted Joe Clark's Tories and crossed the floor, becoming Trudeau's Industry Minister. Horner wanted power, said Clark would never get it. The Liberals were in trouble (they subsequently lost the election) and Trudeau was desperate, particularly for proof that he could get along with an Albertan.

I've never heard much about this Horner fella till now. I think Belinda will suffer the same fate: being used and spit out by the Liberal machine.

Belinda is no Margaret Thatcher, no Indira Gandhi, no Golda Meir, no Condoleeza Rice. Heck, she's not even a Hillary Rodham.

Non-starter. Doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence.

[takeanumber]

Another who makes the rules as he/she goes. It's ok for him/her to generalize and make blanket statements, but watch out if you fire back in kind.

I havn't attacked you for your generalizations, but I have certainly attacked your statements.

I believe you're quoted as calling Belinda either a prostitute or a whore....which one was it?

And this was well before the Liberals had ever made this an issue.

So Reagan, if you didn't call her a whore already, do you think it's alright to refer to any woman as a whore?