We Need To Help These People

[AngusThermopyle]

The case of Asia Bibi is shocking, but sadly all too common in the country of Pakistan. I've been following it for some time now and it's actually unfolding in pretty familiar terms. Her familly has appealed for asylum in Canada, among other western countries, but we don't hear anything about them Yet our government is quick with the old Twitter when it comes to an activist in SA. If the Trudeau government is as humanitarian as they claim, truly cares about the persecuted, then they shouldn't hesitate to get her and her familly out of there.

Or is she below their notice, since she's a Christian? As a side note, Pakistan is a true cess pool. We consider them to be allies but the truth is that they're anything but that. The Liberals should act on this without hesitation. To do anything else would just be wrong.

The joy over the acquittal of Asia Bibi lasted barely 24 hours. The Christian mother of five from Pakistan was forced to spend eight years in prison, much of the time on death row, ostensibly for "blasphemy," before the Supreme Court cleared her of any offense.

"I can't believe what I am hearing, will I go out now? Will they let me out, really?", Asia Bibi said by phone after the historic sentence, according to AFP news agency.

Unfortunately, massive street protests by extremist Muslims immediately erupted to pressure the government to delay her release. The phone network in some areas was suspended for reasons of "security". Rioting caused schools in Islamabad, Punjab and Kashmir to close. Roads were blocked, paralyzing parts of Islamabad, Lahore and other cities. Christian schools warned parents to come and get their children for fear of violence. Churches were put on high alert. Protesters hold placards that read: "Hang Asia Bibi".

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/13250/asia-bibi-pakistan-betrayal

[scribblet]

Hard to imagine how so many people could be so savage and inhuman.  So far nothing from Trudeau but the conservatives have brought it up so will be interesting to see how he responds.

Well....as per Michelle Rempel

We just asked Justin Trudeau directly, in question period, if he would grant Asia Bibi (whose life is in grave danger due to her faith) asylum. The Liberals won’t answer - the Immigration Minister didn’t even rise. Let’s force Justin Trudeau to do the right thing. RT!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by scribblet

[dialamah]

Sadly, the gov in Pakistan has caved to pressure and now she isn't allowed to leave the country at all.  

But Canada isn't actually ignoring the situation after all:

 

Quote

Canada is engaged in secret talks with allies over how to protect Asia Bibi, a Pakistani Christian woman who spent eight years on death row for blasphemy.

Liberal MP Andrew Leslie, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of Foreign Affairs, confirmed the multilateral discussions during today's question period in the House of Commons, but provided no details.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by dialamah

[scribblet]

Good to know.  Maybe they can smuggle them out to an Embassy then helicopter them away.  The lawyer and judges are now in hiding, pretty sad to read and see such an horrific display of savagery.  

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, scribblet said:

Good to know.  Maybe they can smuggle them out to an Embassy then helicopter them away.  The lawyer and judges are now in hiding, pretty sad to read and see such an horrific display of savagery.  

 

Islam in action.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Islam in action.

Actually this is Islam in stasis - a state of arrested development due to at least a couple if hundred years of depredation at other nations and cultures hands.  Its not hard to imagine how backwards Christianity would still be today if it had fallen into similar hands a couple of hundred years ago, look at much of Africa for example.

[DogOnPorch]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Actually this is Islam in stasis - a state of arrested development due to at least a couple if hundred years of depredation at other nations and cultures hands.  Its not hard to imagine how backwards Christianity would still be today if it had fallen into similar hands a couple of hundred years ago, look at much of Africa for example.

 

Pakistan was created in the 1940s under threat of violence. This is Islam.

You're free to defend Islam's long historical record of conversion by the sword. And murdering apostates and anyone else guilty of Fitnah...a word you'll have to look-up.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Pakistan was created in the 1940s under threat of violence. This is Islam.

And you must be Capt Obvious.

[DogOnPorch]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

And you must be Capt Obvious.

 

Need me to point it out on a map for you, too?

[turningrite]

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

Actually this is Islam in stasis - a state of arrested development due to at least a couple if hundred years of depredation at other nations and cultures hands.  Its not hard to imagine how backwards Christianity would still be today if it had fallen into similar hands a couple of hundred years ago, look at much of Africa for example.

Huh? Now there's an example of historical reductionism. There is no unified Islamic world with a singular history and certainly it wasn't universally subjected to the predations of Western colonialism (i.e. "other nations and cultures"), as you seem to imply. In fact, much of the pre-20th century Islamic world, including most of the Middle East, was for centuries under the control of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. It's incredibly simplistic and highly inaccurate to ascribe the root of the modern world's problems to Western power, culture and colonialism.

Edited November 7, 2018 by turningrite

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

It's incredibly simplistic and highly inaccurate to ascribe the root of the modern world's problems to Western power, culture and colonialism.

Its highly accurate to ascribe a great deal of it to the diddling and geopolitical vandalism that's occurred within living memory and its big enough to warrant an international effort to mitigate it.

[turningrite]

On 11/7/2018 at 11:56 AM, eyeball said:

Its highly accurate to ascribe a great deal of it to the diddling and geopolitical vandalism that's occurred within living memory and its big enough to warrant an international effort to mitigate it.

It's sounds like you believe ideological posturing should trump cold, hard reality. Leaving aside ideology for a minute (at least), ordinary Canadians have played little or no role in the "diddling and geopolitical vandalism" you reference. So, why should ordinary Canadians be held to account for any of this? We should do what we can and are able to do to remedy the worst atrocities, realizing that much of what we do could have little impact. We can't and shouldn't assume we can solve every problem. Look at the piece in today's G&M about the aid we provided to Afghanistan, much of it lost to "widespread waste, lax oversight and endemic corruption" (link below).

As for the topic at hand about the woman persecuted in Pakistan for alleged blasphemy, I do think Western governments should have intervened to help her and her family. (I believe the UK now has.) In general, I think our refugee policy should be oriented to highlighting and addressing the plight of religious minorities although this could ruffle sensibilities among Canadian "progressives" and in particular in Trudeau's party. It seems to me that Trudeau's response to the situation in Pakistan was rather muted in comparison to his usual histrionics where human rights abuses are concerned. Go figure. Oh well, he got in his apology for the MS St. Louis fiasco, which I guess met his quota. I really appreciated the observation of one of the MS St. Louis survivors who when interviewed about Trudeau's apology during news coverage yesterday evening noted with admirable perspective, dignity and objectivity that (having occurred in 1939) "it was a different time."  Who'd have thunk it? The contrast with our PM, who prefers to lionize perpetual victimhood, was stark.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-billions-in-aid-money-for-afghanistan-wasted-us-agency-finds/

Edited November 9, 2018 by turningrite

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, turningrite said:

It's sounds like you believe ideological posturing should trump cold, hard reality.

I didn't say anything about posturing.

[turningrite]

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

I didn't say anything about posturing.

No. I did by noting that your stated position amounts to such. It's an observation.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, turningrite said:

No. I did by noting that your stated position amounts to such. It's an observation.

Its a characterization

 

20 hours ago, turningrite said:

It's sounds like you believe ideological posturing should trump cold, hard reality. Leaving aside ideology for a minute (at least), ordinary Canadians have played little or no role in the "diddling and geopolitical vandalism" you reference. So, why should ordinary Canadians be held to account for any of this? We should do what we can and are able to do to remedy the worst atrocities, realizing that much of what we do could have little impact. We can't and shouldn't assume we can solve every problem. Look at the piece in today's G&M about the aid we provided to Afghanistan, much of it lost to "widespread waste, lax oversight and endemic corruption" (link below).

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-billions-in-aid-money-for-afghanistan-wasted-us-agency-finds/

It sounds like you expect governments to merely posture.  We ship weapons to dictators and we align ourselves with allies who knock off democracies when it suits them.  Our government plays the role of enabler as do voters that are responsible for the actions of the governments they elect.  Canadians should be held to account for the same reason church organizations that systemically cover up sexual abuse should be held to account - for the very same reason we hold people to account for the material and financial aid they provide a terrorist group.  Canada is up to it's neck in very very similar complicity.  This has nothing to do with ideology, its simply about being indifferent assholes on the global catwalk.

We can't salve a problem while creating it at the same time.

From your link:

Quote

Unlike the United States, Canada does not independently audit the money it puts into Western trust funds for international aid. But Mr. Sopko said he is certain the problems he identified for U.S. taxpayers are the same for Canadian taxpayers.

Like the United States, Canada does not audit the morality underpinning its actions or inaction as the case may be and you can be quite certain the damage and the shit this stirs up in the world will only get worse.

So yeah go ahead and posture all you like.

[DogOnPorch]

The UK refuses to take Asia Bibi under fear of upsetting Muslims.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/britain-not-prepared-to-offer-asylum-to-persecuted-pakistani-christian_uk_5be3342be4b0dbe871a61b95?utm_hp_ref=uk-news

[turningrite]

29 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The UK refuses to take Asia Bibi under fear of upsetting Muslims.

 

I read about this situation earlier today. I guess we shouldn't be shocked. Perhaps those who argue that Muslim immigration to the West doesn't serve to undermine and/or erode Western values might want to respond on this matter. Now that the UK has abdicated, maybe Canada or the U.S. can intervene? Well, Trudeau probably won't but maybe Trump will.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, turningrite said:

I read about this situation earlier today. I guess we shouldn't be shocked. Perhaps those who argue that Muslim immigration to the West doesn't serve to undermine and/or erode Western values might want to respond on this matter. Now that the UK has abdicated, maybe Canada or the U.S. can intervene? Well, Trudeau probably won't but maybe Trump will.

 

This result says that Islam is the de facto power in charge in the UK. 

[turningrite]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

1.) Its a characterization

2.) It sounds like you expect governments to merely posture.  We ship weapons to dictators and we align ourselves with allies who knock off democracies when it suits them.  Our government plays the role of enabler as do voters that are responsible for the actions of the governments they elect.  Canadians should be held to account for the same reason church organizations that systemically cover up sexual abuse should be held to account - for the very same reason we hold people to account for the material and financial aid they provide a terrorist group.  Canada is up to it's neck in very very similar complicity.  This has nothing to do with ideology, its simply about being indifferent assholes on the global catwalk.

3.) We can't salve a problem while creating it at the same time.

4.) Like the United States, Canada does not audit the morality underpinning its actions or inaction as the case may be and you can be quite certain the damage and the shit this stirs up in the world will only get worse.

 

1.) If so, at least it's a logical one.

2. & 3.) Governments do mainly posture where policy rationalization is concerned. Sorry to burst your bubble on this. Canada sells relatively small amounts of weaponry to other countries and, yes, such sales do raise moral concerns. At least we talk about them, even if only in a limited fashion. Funny, though, that our moralistic Lib government has simply carried on with an military equipment sale to the KSA that was negotiated under a CPC regime. How are ordinary voters responsible for this unless they're given a real choice in the matter? With the tri-party cartel that runs official Ottawa in place, ordinary voters are bit players. I don't remember the issue even being discussed in any detail during the last federal election. Unfortunately, our system grants the mainstream political parties a virtual monopoly to determine which issues are raised during election campaigns. Trudeau, our illustrious leader, has essentially argued that this monopoly is necessary to keep fringe voices and perspectives out of our political system. ("Fringe" presumably means anything he doesn't like, like debating immigration levels.) He's a fan, apparently, of limited and managed democracy. We're just observers.

4.) I believe the article is about the waste and misdirection of foreign aid. The alternative, I suppose, is to provide no such aid where it's apparent that corruption in recipient countries could undermine our objectives in furnishing such aid. So, would you rather we simply abandon foreign aid programs altogether? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. You seem to want to present us as the 'bad guy' whether or not we try to help others.

Edited November 9, 2018 by turningrite

[taxme]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

The UK refuses to take Asia Bibi under fear of upsetting Muslims.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/britain-not-prepared-to-offer-asylum-to-persecuted-pakistani-christian_uk_5be3342be4b0dbe871a61b95?utm_hp_ref=uk-news

All the more reason for the UK to bring her in. Piss those Muslims off. Sad for her that she is a Christian. What countries like the UK and Canada want are more and more Islamic Muslims that hate our Christian values and ways of doing things. Who needs enemies when we have hoofus-goofus political leaders in the West who are hell bent on trying to destroy both their countries from the inside. The invaders just have to wait outside our borders for us to destroy ourselves and then they can move in with no sweat lost. 

[taxme]

On 11/5/2018 at 1:42 PM, AngusThermopyle said:

The case of Asia Bibi is shocking, but sadly all too common in the country of Pakistan. I've been following it for some time now and it's actually unfolding in pretty familiar terms. Her familly has appealed for asylum in Canada, among other western countries, but we don't hear anything about them Yet our government is quick with the old Twitter when it comes to an activist in SA. If the Trudeau government is as humanitarian as they claim, truly cares about the persecuted, then they shouldn't hesitate to get her and her familly out of there.

Or is she below their notice, since she's a Christian? As a side note, Pakistan is a true cess pool. We consider them to be allies but the truth is that they're anything but that. The Liberals should act on this without hesitation. To do anything else would just be wrong.

The joy over the acquittal of Asia Bibi lasted barely 24 hours. The Christian mother of five from Pakistan was forced to spend eight years in prison, much of the time on death row, ostensibly for "blasphemy," before the Supreme Court cleared her of any offense.

"I can't believe what I am hearing, will I go out now? Will they let me out, really?", Asia Bibi said by phone after the historic sentence, according to AFP news agency.

Unfortunately, massive street protests by extremist Muslims immediately erupted to pressure the government to delay her release. The phone network in some areas was suspended for reasons of "security". Rioting caused schools in Islamabad, Punjab and Kashmir to close. Roads were blocked, paralyzing parts of Islamabad, Lahore and other cities. Christian schools warned parents to come and get their children for fear of violence. Churches were put on high alert. Protesters hold placards that read: "Hang Asia Bibi".

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/13250/asia-bibi-pakistan-betrayal

Sadly, there are millions of instances like this going on in the rest of the non-Western world. If we do it for one, then we have to do it for all. That cannot be allowed to happen. It's hard to deal with an Islamic country. They are so backwards and archaic in their way of thinking that it is impossible to want to be wasting our time trying to talk with them. I say just leave them where they are. Stop all Muslim immigration. It will be good for both people to not be mixed together. Works for me. 

[DogOnPorch]

8 minutes ago, taxme said:

Sadly, there are millions of instances like this going on in the rest of the non-Western world. If we do it for one, then we have to do it for all. That cannot be allowed to happen. It's hard to deal with an Islamic country. They are so backwards and archaic in their way of thinking that it is impossible to want to be wasting our time trying to talk with them. I say just leave them where they are. Stop all Muslim immigration. It will be good for both people to not be mixed together. Works for me. 

 

Trouble is...Pakistan has nukes and so will Iran and likely several others. Now...they're likely to drop an egg on Tel Aviv in my lifetime...from somewhere...which might please some besides Mullahs. But Israel...in the spirit of Never Again...is highly likely to have built a high yield cobalt device in Dimona that could well give us all a nice green glow if they feel the next Holocaust is underway.

Jus' saying.

Edited November 10, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, turningrite said:

1.) If so, at least it's a logical one

Not given the blow-back it can lead too, its the least logical actually.

Quote

.2. & 3.) Governments do mainly posture where policy rationalization is concerned. Sorry to burst your bubble on this. Canada sells relatively small amounts of weaponry to other countries and, yes, such sales do raise moral concerns. At least we talk about them, even if only in a limited fashion.

 

Yes we pose, and bat our eyes and make soothing noises. 

Quote

How are ordinary voters responsible for this unless they're given a real choice in the matter ?

That's the real trick ins't it? In the meantime if you don't believe the adage that voters in modern democracies like ours are responsible for the things the governments we elect do then what's the point in worrying about it?

Edited November 10, 2018 by eyeball

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Trouble is...Pakistan has nukes and so will Iran and likely several others. Now...they're likely to drop an egg on Tel Aviv in my lifetime...from somewhere...which might please some besides Mullahs. But Israel...in the spirit of Never Again...is highly likely to have built a high yield cobalt device in Dremora that could well give us all a nice green glow if they feel the next Holocaust is underway.

Jus' saying.

You can bet a lot of Christian fundies will be hollering bulls-eye.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You can bet a lot of Christian fundies will be hollering bulls-eye.

 

Not for long. Nobody escapes a cobalt weapon. Which is why they're so horrible.

Edited November 10, 2018 by DogOnPorch