Is the Charter finished?

[turningrite]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope....the U.S. is not a democracy...it is a constitutional republic...exemplified by the Bush v. Gore decision (14th Amendment - equal protection clause).

Ontario's laughable situation is made more so by worshipers of "The Crown".....but Americans aren't worried about it like this.

I think you're confusing apples and oranges here. Much of the criticism of Bush v. Gore has originated from within the U.S. rather than from outside. Introspection is beneficial both for individuals and for societies.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I think you're confusing apples and oranges here. Much of the criticism of Bush v. Gore has originated from within the U.S. rather than from outside. Introspection is beneficial both for individuals and for societies.

 

I am confusing nothing....Canada watched Bush v. Gore intently...just like it watches all things American.

Nothing yet on major U.S. media outlets about the Notwithstanding Clause (get out of jail free card).

[-1=e^ipi]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Are there examples you can point to that are better, in terms of application and outcomes?

US constitution is better in that it protects freedom of speech and gets rid of the damn monarchy.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

US constitution is better in that it protects freedom of speech and gets rid of the damn monarchy.

It also, under the current court, allows unlimited money to pour into the election and re-election efforts of politicians, allowing corporations and wealthy people to buy them in wholesale lots, which is destroying their democracy.

I'll take the monarchy any day.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Argus

[-1=e^ipi]

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

It also, under the current court, allows unlimited money to pour into the election and re-election efforts of politicians, allowing corporations and wealthy people to buy them in wholesale lots, which is destroying their democracy.

I'll take the monarchy any day.

 

It's not perfect, neither is the Canadian constitution.

I just listed two ways in which it is better than the Canadian constitution.

Better if we could replace our constitution with an even better one.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

 

It's not perfect, neither is the Canadian constitution.

I just listed two ways in which it is better than the Canadian constitution.

Better if we could replace our constitution with an even better one.

Our constitution protects freedom of speech too. It's our judges that don't.  A constitution says whatever the people who get to interpret it last say it does.

[-1=e^ipi]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Our constitution protects freedom of speech too. It's our judges that don't.  A constitution says whatever the people who get to interpret it last say it does.

No it doesn't. See sections 1 and 33 of the charter.

[Hates politicians]

On 9/11/2018 at 3:29 PM, taxme said:

If gerrymandering ridings for a next election could have been done the liberals and socialists and the red tories would have done so decades ago. I doubt that would go very far if any party tried to do so. Then one would see that democracy is one big joke for sure. All Ford is doing here is pretty much trying to point out here that he is suppose to be running Ontario and not this radical judge. If a Premier wants to cut wards than that is his right to do so. Challenging what Ford is doing here is a waste of taxpayer's tax dollars and is being done by a bunch of crybaby sour pusses who lost an election. If it means cutting taxes and government and not causing any problems for the taxpayer than why not. The taxpayer's should be delighted. 

This is just one of many trials and tribulations that Ford will have to face and deal with now that he is the Premier of Ontario, and where the leftist liberals and socialists and their liberal supporting leftist media will attack him on everything now that they do not agree with and will eat into their forced liberal and socialist programs and agendas that the majority of the people of Ontario never asked for. We see the same thing happening against Trump by the leftists liberal losers in America. They all see themselves losing their communist power and control over we the people. Ford is truly a breathe of politically incorrect fresh air for Ontario and the Ontario people from all of the boring and stuffiness and corruption that most of our politicians have and are still committing today too Canada and Canadians. Anyone who has any common sense and logic and who believes in more freedom, less government and less taxes should get behind Ford instead of attacking Ford. Ford is the change that Canada and Canadians need these days. My opinion.   

Right on!

[Hates politicians]

On 9/11/2018 at 2:44 PM, taxme said:

It would appear to me as though the both Trudeau's had/have a hatred for Canada and want to change Canada into their own image and into what they believe Canada should look like and become. I would like to know one thing as to what the Trudeau's have done to make Canada great? Just one thing. 

Absolutely nothing is what they've done

[eyeball]

17 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

US constitution is better in that it protects freedom of speech and gets rid of the damn monarchy.

The buses appear to run just as incompetently and corruptly, that's all that really matters.

...knock, knock, knock...

Damn, must be the government come to arrest me for badmouthing it.  Of course if this was the US they'd toss a couple of stun grenades thru the window and smash the door in with a battering ram. I guess some people think that's better.

Edited September 13, 2018 by eyeball

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

It also, under the current court, allows unlimited money to pour into the election and re-election efforts of politicians, allowing corporations and wealthy people to buy them in wholesale lots, which is destroying their democracy.

Would someone please ask Argus why this aspect of democracy troubles him?  He maintains that his vote should have a greater clout than people below his station so exactly where and why does he get off denying his betters greater influence over our governance?

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

It's not perfect, neither is the Canadian constitution.

I just listed two ways in which it is better than the Canadian constitution.

Better if we could replace our constitution with an even better one.

All we need are politicians willing to be subjected to the same levels of monitoring they intend for us.

I suspect just about any system of government in the known universe would be immediately more palatable with that one simple measure.  How hard can it really be? All it would take are a few good people willing to sacrifice their secrecy for the cause.  As for the money, I'd happily pay them as much as it takes to attract the sort of principled talent that such an important job demands.

Edited September 13, 2018 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

This Globe & Mail op-ed is sooooooo Canadian....in that it points at the United States to counter a Made In Canada problem.  

Sorry....that won't work this time.    This is..."Canadian style".

 

Quote

...Your comments reminded me of another person who has taken a dim view of the judiciary and done his level best to undermine that institution. A while back, when he received a judgment he disagreed with, he tweeted: “The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!" This was followed up by, “Just cannot believe a judge would put our country in such peril. If something happens blame him and court system. …” That was U.S. President Donald Trump.  (The U.S. courts eventually sided with Trump on the travel ban.)

So here is your final lesson: Mr. Trump is not a good example to follow. Do not forget, Premier Ford, we are Canadian and inherently decent to a fault.  The rough-and-tumble populist appeal to which you, apparently, aspire has long-term, negative consequences for the country. No power grab is worth undermining the solid foundations of this country. You owe it to all of us to keep that in mind. Just look to our neighbours to the south.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-doug-ford-no-power-grab-is-worth-undermining-canadas-solid/

 

The U.S. courts eventually sided with Trump on the travel ban....but we will ignore that part of this cross-border Canadian tantrum....because the G&M did too.

 

[Centerpiece]

The Charter has great value - and is vital to our democracy - when implemented in a proper fashion. I liken its use to sports video replays. If there is not clear, unequivocal evidence of a violation of rights - remembering that the Charter also says that those rights are not "absolute", then government legislation must prevail. Putting technicalities aside, if you were to ask a Toronto citizen how their individual rights have been violated by cutting council, the overwhelming answer would be "Huh?". In many respects - but not all (especially egregious violations that cannot be minimized) - our Charter's reluctance to make rights "absolute" can best be supported by Star Trek's Spock - "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

[turningrite]

On 9/15/2018 at 10:44 AM, Centerpiece said:

The Charter has great value - and is vital to our democracy - when implemented in a proper fashion. I liken its use to sports video replays. If there is not clear, unequivocal evidence of a violation of rights - remembering that the Charter also says that those rights are not "absolute", then government legislation must prevail. Putting technicalities aside, if you were to ask a Toronto citizen how their individual rights have been violated by cutting council, the overwhelming answer would be "Huh?". In many respects - but not all (especially egregious violations that cannot be minimized) - our Charter's reluctance to make rights "absolute" can best be supported by Star Trek's Spock - "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

As a Torontonian, I don't really care about the size of city council. However, I still object to the apparent reason for Ford's action, which seems to be to exact payback for the perceived indignities he and his brother suffered during the ill-fated Rob Ford mayoralty. It's kind of perverse that Doug Ford now characterizes Toronto's city council as an ineffective circus when it appeared to a lot of observers that during Rob Ford's tenure this was precisely the Fords' intent. It was certainly in large measure a consequence of their behavior. The size of city council probably isn't a pressing issue for most Torontonians, while Ford's attempt to exact payback does seem a pressing concern for him, which is sad given that the province suffers many and far more serious problems that Ford might otherwise expend valuable political capital to address. But he has his own priorities. And, for many, they're clearly misplaced.

[taxme]

 

US constitution is better in that it protects freedom of speech and gets rid of the damn monarchy.

I was just thinking that if the monarchy in Canada ever goes than Canada will surely get a new monarchy and it will be probably a french monarchy from France. The monarchist league of Canada stops that process from happening. I mean the french of Quebec pretty much run Canada today and Quebec is all french while the rest of the country is all bilingual. It's not hard to figure out as to what will happen to Canada if the monarchy goes. Just wondering.  Parlez-vous francais. 

[taxme]

 

As a Torontonian, I don't really care about the size of city council. However, I still object to the apparent reason for Ford's action, which seems to be to exact payback for the perceived indignities he and his brother suffered during the ill-fated Rob Ford mayoralty. It's kind of perverse that Doug Ford now characterizes Toronto's city council as an ineffective circus when it appeared to a lot of observers that during Rob Ford's tenure this was precisely the Fords' intent. It was certainly in large measure a consequence of their behavior. The size of city council probably isn't a pressing issue for most Torontonians, while Ford's attempt to exact payback does seem a pressing concern for him, which is sad given that the province suffers many and far more serious problems that Ford might otherwise expend valuable political capital to address. But he has his own priorities. And, for many, they're clearly misplaced.

The Toronto taxpayer's should be concerned about the size of city hall and how their taxes are being blown by the lefty liberal communist politicians in Ontario. Ford should know all about what goes on in Toronto city hall and how it is nothing more than an ineffective circus. There were plenty of serious issues going on in Ontario when Wynne was the premier but all she seemed to care and want to talk about was sex.All politicians pretty much have their own priorities So, what is your point? I do not see anything but good happening for Ontario now that a real conservative is now in power and running the show. You should be happy like chit that Wynne is gone. What the hell did Wynne ever do for Ontario? Anything to offer? 

[turningrite]

 

The Toronto taxpayer's should be concerned about the size of city hall and how their taxes are being blown by the lefty liberal communist politicians in Ontario. Ford should know all about what goes on in Toronto city hall and how it is nothing more than an ineffective circus. There were plenty of serious issues going on in Ontario when Wynne was the premier but all she seemed to care and want to talk about was sex.All politicians pretty much have their own priorities So, what is your point? I do not see anything but good happening for Ontario now that a real conservative is now in power and running the show. You should be happy like chit that Wynne is gone. What the hell did Wynne ever do for Ontario? Anything to offer? 

I don't believe Ford's move to cut the number Toronto council seats will save much, if anything. The remaining councilors will no doubt be allotted larger staff budgets in order to deal with constituent concerns and the usual left-right divide will no doubt survive on council. As a Mainstreet poll that was published today indicates that almost two-third's of Torontonians don't support Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause, maybe the upcoming election will draw out more voters than usual who'll be motivated to get rid of the councilors who support Ford. The best remedy for what ails Toronto council might well be to replace all sitting councilors with new faces. Somebody should start up a campaign to that effect. This whole fiasco has made me decide to vote for John Tory's main opponent as Tory has been weak on the issue.

On a separate issue, I'm glad Wynne is gone. I didn't vote for her party and I couldn't support the Ford-led PCs. I wanted to vote for the 'None of the Above' candidate whose name for some reason didn't appear on the ballot in my riding. You're optimistic about Ford's government but apparently you don't live here. We went through the Ford horror show at city hall a few years ago and a lot of us are now experiencing deja vu. We in Toronto have been there and done the stupid dance with Ford's crowd. And we did it before with Harris, a somewhat more measured ideologue. Ford, besotted with his own cult of personality, is unlikely to help this province and unlikely to save taxpayers very much money.

[taxme]

On 9/18/2018 at 1:00 PM, turningrite said:

I don't believe Ford's move to cut the number Toronto council seats will save much, if anything. The remaining councilors will no doubt be allotted larger staff budgets in order to deal with constituent concerns and the usual left-right divide will no doubt survive on council. As a Mainstreet poll that was published today indicates that almost two-third's of Torontonians don't support Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause, maybe the upcoming election will draw out more voters than usual who'll be motivated to get rid of the councilors who support Ford. The best remedy for what ails Toronto council might well be to replace all sitting councilors with new faces. Somebody should start up a campaign to that effect. This whole fiasco has made me decide to vote for John Tory's main opponent as Tory has been weak on the issue.

On a separate issue, I'm glad Wynne is gone. I didn't vote for her party and I couldn't support the Ford-led PCs. I wanted to vote for the 'None of the Above' candidate whose name for some reason didn't appear on the ballot in my riding. You're optimistic about Ford's government but apparently you don't live here. We went through the Ford horror show at city hall a few years ago and a lot of us are now experiencing deja vu. We in Toronto have been there and done the stupid dance with Ford's crowd. And we did it before with Harris, a somewhat more measured ideologue. Ford, besotted with his own cult of personality, is unlikely to help this province and unlikely to save taxpayers very much money.

Well then, I guess that you will have to just wait for awhile to see what Ford can do for Ontario. Getting rid of 22 seats has to be a saving for the taxpayer's of Ontario in some way. Anything that has to do with saving the taxpayer's tax dollars has to be a good thing. Every bit helps. Ford appears to be starting to piss off the lefty liberals and that alone is a great thing to be doing. It is time to give the lefty liberals some conservative common sense and logic medicine for a change. Long overdue. 

[turningrite]

2 minutes ago, taxme said:

Well then, I guess that you will have to just wait for awhile to see what Ford can do for Ontario. Getting rid of 22 seats has to be a saving for the taxpayer's of Ontario in some way. Anything that has to do with saving the taxpayer's tax dollars has to be a good thing. Every bit helps. Ford appears to be starting to piss off the lefty liberals and that alone is a great thing to be doing. It is time to give the lefty liberals some conservative common sense and logic medicine for a change. Long overdue. 

The bigger risk going forward is that Ford will actually serve the interests of his corporate buddies - i.e. the most powerful interest group in this country. Getting rid of a few city councillors is just a symbolic nod to salve the expectations of his supporters. It will save very little, if any, money. Let's see if Ford starts to address the big budget items and dilemmas. If I were him, I'd start by reining in the entire subsidy system, including both individual and corporate transfers, incrementally phasing out all social housing except that for the seriously disabled, contracting out public services, imposing meaningful health care premiums for everybody except seniors who have at least 25 years of residency in Canada as well as children and young people 21 years of age and younger. Further, school funding should be linked to performance standards. And in return, he should cut provincial income tax rates in half and move to reduce Ontario's HST by 3 points incrementally over a 3 year period. By doing the things I've mentioned, he'd truly be signalling a shift toward serving taxpayer interests. But I won't hold my breath waiting.