Will Bernier start new party?

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

I disagree with much of your analysis. Bernier's past security misstep in essence boiled down to a tempest in a D cup, so to speak. Leaving confidential docs at a girlfriend's place, while perhaps indiscreet, isn't likely to be seen by the public as suggesting compromised loyalties.

 

It has nothing to do with loyalty, but everything to do with responsibility.

And she wasn't just a d-cup, she was previously a biker. That conjures up even more racist notions to back up the "racism" in the tweets and feed the division machine.

In my opinion, Trudeau's ONLY election strategy consists of "I'm cute and cuddly, they're racists!" His only chance to win an election is to keep on repeating that. He gets absolutely massacred on policy and the abysmal failures of his first term in a debate vs Scheer. A debate vs Bernier will be all about racism and it's hard to defend yourself from those kinds of accusations in public. Bernier's favourite talking point is a political minefield.

[turningrite]

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

It has nothing to do with loyalty, but everything to do with responsibility.

And she wasn't just a d-cup, she was previously a biker. That conjures up even more racist notions to back up the "racism" in the tweets and feed the division machine.

In my opinion, Trudeau's ONLY election strategy consists of "I'm cute and cuddly, they're racists!" His only chance to win an election is to keep on repeating that. He gets absolutely massacred on policy and the abysmal failures of his first term in a debate vs Scheer. A debate vs Bernier will be all about racism and it's hard to defend yourself from those kinds of accusations in public. Bernier's favourite talking point is a political minefield.

A biker? Call the cops! Were Bernier guilty of a serious security offense, he would have been turfed from cabinet and perhaps even from caucus. To tell you the truth, when I think of the incident all I clearly recall are the photos. Oh, those photos...

Trudeau is a horrible prime minister. But, as I've said elsewhere, unless the other traditional parties can distinguish themselves from Trudeau's politically correct brand they're ceding territory to Bernier's prospective party. Bernier's views appear to resonate with a broad swath of voters. Unfortunately, two of the traditional parties are utterly committed to so-called "progressive" ideology (i.e. the Libs and the NDP) while the CPC seems terrified of even visiting the issues Bernier is addressing, preferring "consultation" instead, which to many is political-speak for doing nothing. The 49% of Canadians who disagree with current immigration policies as well as the likely larger percentage who are tired of identity politics can't all be wrong. It's foolhardy to deny them a political outlet and home. And any attempt to label them "racists" will probably backfire. The word is now so overused as to have become debased. And voting in Canada is still governed by a right of privacy at the ballot box, rending it unlikely voters can be intimidated into complying with the progressive agenda.

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, turningrite said:

A biker? Call the cops! Were Bernier guilty of a serious security offense, he would have been turfed from cabinet and perhaps even from caucus. To tell you the truth, when I think of the incident all I clearly recall are the photos. Oh, those photos...

Trudeau is a horrible prime minister. But, as I've said elsewhere, unless the other traditional parties can distinguish themselves from Trudeau's politically correct brand they're ceding territory to Bernier's prospective party. Bernier's views appear to resonate with a broad swath of voters. Unfortunately, two of the traditional parties are utterly committed to so-called "progressive" ideology (i.e. the Libs and the NDP) while the CPC seems terrified of even visiting the issues Bernier is addressing, preferring "consultation" instead, which to many is political-speak for doing nothing. The 49% of Canadians who disagree with current immigration policies as well as the likely larger percentage who are tired of identity politics can't all be wrong. It's foolhardy to deny them a political outlet and home. And any attempt to label them "racists" will probably backfire. The word is now so overused as to have become debased. And voting in Canada is still governed by a right of privacy at the ballot box, rending it unlikely voters can be intimidated into complying with the progressive agenda.

If you're in support of splitting the conservative vote I guess I can't sway you. 

But, a week ago the path to removing Trudeau from office was obvious, and now it's getting more and more unlikely by the day.

If no one was supporting Bernie's folly then it would fizzle out. Now we're playing into Trudeau's hand.

[SpankyMcFarland]

6 hours ago, turningrite said:

A biker? Call the cops! Were Bernier guilty of a serious security offense, he would have been turfed from cabinet and perhaps even from caucus. To tell you the truth, when I think of the incident all I clearly recall are the photos. Oh, those photos...

Trudeau is a horrible prime minister. But, as I've said elsewhere, unless the other traditional parties can distinguish themselves from Trudeau's politically correct brand they're ceding territory to Bernier's prospective party. Bernier's views appear to resonate with a broad swath of voters. Unfortunately, two of the traditional parties are utterly committed to so-called "progressive" ideology (i.e. the Libs and the NDP) while the CPC seems terrified of even visiting the issues Bernier is addressing, preferring "consultation" instead, which to many is political-speak for doing nothing. The 49% of Canadians who disagree with current immigration policies as well as the likely larger percentage who are tired of identity politics can't all be wrong. It's foolhardy to deny them a political outlet and home. And any attempt to label them "racists" will probably backfire. The word is now so overused as to have become debased. And voting in Canada is still governed by a right of privacy at the ballot box, rending it unlikely voters can be intimidated into complying with the progressive agenda.

That's one issue and Michelle Rempel is going to be at her snarky best on it from now on. Immigration is inherently less scary in a subcontinent like Canada than it is in smaller countries like the UK and France and tiny countries like Belgium. We've got a lot more room here.

Economic issues will remain important and Bernier is way out of the Canadian mainstream on those, particularly in Quebec. 

FPTP only works tolerably well with two parties. If the conservative minority of voters in this country is in any way split then Trudeau will win big. 

 

[turningrite]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That's one issue and Michelle Rempel is going to be at her snarky best on it from now on. Immigration is inherently less scary in a subcontinent like Canada than it is in smaller countries like the UK and France and tiny countries like Belgium. We've got a lot more room here.

Economic issues will remain important and Bernier is way out of the Canadian mainstream on those, particularly in Quebec. 

FPTP only works tolerably well with two parties. If the conservative minority of voters in this country is in any way split then Trudeau will win big. 

 

A large percentage of the Canadian population lives on a very small proportion of the land mass. Southern Ontario, home to almost 40% of Canada's total population and host to roughly half its immigrant population, already features a population density similar to many European countries. Were immigrants clamoring to inhabit northern Canada, perhaps the intake numbers might be less controversial. Even the famous environmentalist David Suzuki has acknowledged that Canada is full. Further, it makes no sense to move people here from warm countries as once here their environmental footprint vastly increases. If one is concerned about the future of the planet, Canada's population growth should be very limited.

As for the concern about Bernier splitting the conservative vote, I wonder if you and others actually examined the Abacus polling, which indicates that Bernier is pulling support from the Libs and NDP as well as the CPC. Including his new party in the Abacus polling dragged Lib support into distinctly minority territory (34%) whereas without his new party in play the Libs are close, at 37%, to repeating their 2015 majority. Equating the impact of Bernier's party, should it emerge, to the impact of past splinter parties, might not be particularly useful.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

13 hours ago, turningrite said:

A large percentage of the Canadian population lives on a very small proportion of the land mass. Southern Ontario, home to almost 40% of Canada's total population and host to roughly half its immigrant population, already features a population density similar to many European countries. Were immigrants clamoring to inhabit northern Canada, perhaps the intake numbers might be less controversial. Even the famous environmentalist David Suzuki has acknowledged that Canada is full. Further, it makes no sense to move people here from warm countries as once here their environmental footprint vastly increases. If one is concerned about the future of the planet, Canada's population growth should be very limited.

As for the concern about Bernier splitting the conservative vote, I wonder if you and others actually examined the Abacus polling, which indicates that Bernier is pulling support from the Libs and NDP as well as the CPC. Including his new party in the Abacus polling dragged Lib support into distinctly minority territory (34%) whereas without his new party in play the Libs are close, at 37%, to repeating their 2015 majority. Equating the impact of Bernier's party, should it emerge, to the impact of past splinter parties, might not be particularly useful.

 

He's going to get more votes on the right than anywhere else because he's a far right libertarian way out of the Canadian mainstream. In addition, I'm not sensing a Harper or a Chrétien here on the organization and work side, so I don't see him creating a viable national alternative to the Conservatives. There's a reason Harper constantly restrained his own party and kept it centrist - that's where the votes are. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[turningrite]

56 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

He's going to get more votes on the right than anywhere else because he's a far right libertarian way out of the Canadian mainstream. In addition, I'm not sensing a Harper or a Chrétien here on the organization and work side, so I don't see him creating a viable national alternative to the Conservatives. There's a reason Harper constantly restrained his own party and kept it centrist - that's where the votes are. 

Bernier hasn't started his party yet, so perhaps we should all wait and see what he does. Some of Bernier's economic views are certainly libertarian but I'm not sure a good dose of libertarianism would be bad for the Canadian economy, where too many sectors are protected and cosseted at great expense to Canadian consumers. Harper restrained his party to the extent of suppressing the strong social conservative faction within the CPC. And that remains a weakness of the current CPC, although I suspect Scheer, reputedly a social conservative himself, would if he ever formed government have a much more difficult time keeping this faction in check. As far as I know, Bernier is not a social conservative. In an contest between a mild libertarian option on the one hand and a potentially social conservative one on the other I suspect many would opt for the former. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Bernier hasn't started his party yet, so perhaps we should all wait and see what he does. Some of Bernier's economic views are certainly libertarian but I'm not sure a good dose of libertarianism would be bad for the Canadian economy, where too many sectors are protected and cosseted at great expense to Canadian consumers. Harper restrained his party to the extent of suppressing the strong social conservative faction within the CPC. And that remains a weakness of the current CPC, although I suspect Scheer, reputedly a social conservative himself, would if he ever formed government have a much more difficult time keeping this faction in check. As far as I know, Bernier is not a social conservative. In an contest between a mild libertarian option on the one hand and a potentially social conservative one on the other I suspect many would opt for the former. 

Politics is tribal and Bernier just betrayed his tribe. He could match what Conservatives might want perfectly and still most would not forgive him for splitting the vote. 

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Politics is tribal and Bernier just betrayed his tribe. He could match what Conservatives might want perfectly and still most would not forgive him for splitting the vote. 

Perhaps among diehard CPC partisans this might be an issue but not likely among conservative-leaning voters in general. Don't forget that Manning and Harper were rebels too, rejecting the then mainstream conservative PC party. Eventually, that split ended. Bernier's appeal to moderate libertarians and those who want to see immigration and refugee reform might have much more potency than did Harper and Manning's mainly regional protest movement. When a TV news reporter covering last weekend's CPC convention in Halifax interviewed a few of attendees about Bernier's proposed venture some indicated that they were open to considering the idea. Among those in my social circle with whom I've discussed the matter there's also a broad openness to seeing what Bernier might come up with, including among those who have indicated past or current support for the CPC. The problem the CPC faces in any challenge against Trudeau's Libs is to distinguish its brand from the Lib brand. On a lot of issues it's difficult to see much difference. Bernier has said that Scheer amounts to a watered down (although likely a less pompous) version of Trudeau. A lot of voters seem to agree as recent polling suggests Scheer can't beat Trudeau even in the absence of Bernier's party. If Bernier on the other hand can reduce Trudeau's Libs to a minority, what harm might ensue?

[SpankyMcFarland]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Perhaps among diehard CPC partisans this might be an issue but not likely among conservative-leaning voters in general. Don't forget that Manning and Harper were rebels too, rejecting the then mainstream conservative PC party. Eventually, that split ended. Bernier's appeal to moderate libertarians and those who want to see immigration and refugee reform might have much more potency than did Harper and Manning's mainly regional protest movement. When a TV news reporter covering last weekend's CPC convention in Halifax interviewed a few of attendees about Bernier's proposed venture some indicated that they were open to considering the idea. Among those in my social circle with whom I've discussed the matter there's also a broad openness to seeing what Bernier might come up with, including among those who have indicated past or current support for the CPC. The problem the CPC faces in any challenge against Trudeau's Libs is to distinguish its brand from the Lib brand. On a lot of issues it's difficult to see much difference. Bernier has said that Scheer amounts to a watered down (although likely a less pompous) version of Trudeau. A lot of voters seem to agree as recent polling suggests Scheer can't beat Trudeau even in the absence of Bernier's party. If Bernier on the other hand can reduce Trudeau's Libs to a minority, what harm might ensue?

Like the BQ in Quebec, Reform had a strong regional base in the West. Where is Bernier’s regional base? 

[Machjo]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:10 PM, WestCanMan said:

If you're in support of splitting the conservative vote I guess I can't sway you. 

But, a week ago the path to removing Trudeau from office was obvious, and now it's getting more and more unlikely by the day.

If no one was supporting Bernie's folly then it would fizzle out. Now we're playing into Trudeau's hand.

Do you vote for a candidate or against a candidate? what I mean by that is, will you vote for Sheer or against Trudeau (ie. just any schmuck who'll get Trudeau out)?

I've never voted strategically in my life and I never will. In fact, I've voted for the one I believed to be the best local candidate even when I knew he'd lose. I'd rather vote for the best candidate even if it results in the worst candidate winning than to support the second worst just to keep the worst one out. Strategic voting pushes politics to the lowest common denominator.

[turningrite]

7 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Like the BQ in Quebec, Reform had a strong regional base in the West. Where is Bernier’s regional base? 

It wouldn't be a regional party, which means that its potential to appeal to a broad swath of voters would be much greater.

[WestCanMan]

19 hours ago, Machjo said:

Do you vote for a candidate or against a candidate? what I mean by that is, will you vote for Sheer or against Trudeau (ie. just any schmuck who'll get Trudeau out)?

I've never voted strategically in my life and I never will. In fact, I've voted for the one I believed to be the best local candidate even when I knew he'd lose. I'd rather vote for the best candidate even if it results in the worst candidate winning than to support the second worst just to keep the worst one out. Strategic voting pushes politics to the lowest common denominator.

I cast my vote in the manner that best serves my country.

Whether Scheer wins or Bernier I'd be ok with that, but Bernier already had his chance to lead a party and he failed. Now he's dumb/petulant enough to split the conservative vote and I don't see how that's ok with voters.

The only thing that really stands out about the upcoming election is that if Trudeau wins we are going to keep digging ourselves deeper into this hole, and we're already well past the point where we can expect a recovery within the next 20 years. This country might be permanently screwed if he gets in again.

Would you honestly rather screw the country than do the sensible thing, just based on a principle that only you really believe in? IMO your vote should be used to help move the country in the right direction when you get the chance, not as a protest vote.

Voting to keep the worst one out is the smart thing to do sometimes.

Edited August 29, 2018 by WestCanMan

[turningrite]

20 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I cast my vote in the manner that best serves my country.

Whether Scheer wins or Bernier I'd be ok with that, but Bernier already had his chance to lead a party and he failed. Now he's dump/petulant enough to split the conservative vote and I don't see how that's ok with voters.

 

You do realize that Bernier lost the leadership vote based on special interests aligning against him, right?  It was believed that he was the preferred choice of rank-and-file CPC members but this wasn't enough to overcome powerful lobbying interests, particularly due to Bernier's stance on supply management. And I believe Scheer had the CPC's so-cons on his side as well, although this faction doesn't broadly reflect or represent the Canadian electorate. Bernier apparently feels the CPC simply can't be reformed. Maybe he's right.

[WestCanMan]

8 minutes ago, turningrite said:

You do realize that Bernier lost the leadership vote based on special interests aligning against him, right?  It was believed that he was the preferred choice of rank-and-file CPC members but this wasn't enough to overcome powerful lobbying interests, particularly due to Bernier's stance on supply management. And I believe Scheer had the CPC's so-cons on his side as well, although this faction doesn't broadly reflect or represent the Canadian electorate. Bernier apparently feels the CPC simply can't be reformed. Maybe he's right.

So a vote for Bernier is a protest vote?

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Bernier apparently feels the CPC simply can't be reformed. Maybe he's right.

When it was formed, the CPC was initially criticized as being too socially conservative. Now it seems, they are... too liberal.

Edited August 29, 2018 by OftenWrong
"trimmed" that little reply

[taxme]

On 8/27/2018 at 10:20 AM, WestCanMan said:

It has nothing to do with loyalty, but everything to do with responsibility.

And she wasn't just a d-cup, she was previously a biker. That conjures up even more racist notions to back up the "racism" in the tweets and feed the division machine.

In my opinion, Trudeau's ONLY election strategy consists of "I'm cute and cuddly, they're racists!" His only chance to win an election is to keep on repeating that. He gets absolutely massacred on policy and the abysmal failures of his first term in a debate vs Scheer. A debate vs Bernier will be all about racism and it's hard to defend yourself from those kinds of accusations in public. Bernier's favourite talking point is a political minefield.

Yup, if you want to try and destroy the credibility of an opponent then try and find and then try to nail that opponent on something that he/she may have said or done that appears to have been racist. It does not matter if that opponent said something that appeared to be racist 30 years ago. Bring it up anyway. Is that all politics has come down these days?  Play the racist card and hope that it works out for you. 

A politician should talk about real issues and concerns of the day and the racist word will disappear fast. If some candidate said something racist 5 or 20 years ago but told me that they were going to lower my taxes and get government off my back, shit, I could careless what he said that was racist. I will vote for him or her for sure.

 

 

[turningrite]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

So a vote for Bernier is a protest vote?

No, it would appear for the time being to be a vote for a conservative party not beholden to special interests. We'll see whether Bernier's party emerges and how its platform develops, but at present I and apparently a lot of others are tired at the lack of options provided by the traditional tri-party cartel that runs the show in Ottawa.

[taxme]

39 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I cast my vote in the manner that best serves my country.

Whether Scheer wins or Bernier I'd be ok with that, but Bernier already had his chance to lead a party and he failed. Now he's dump/petulant enough to split the conservative vote and I don't see how that's ok with voters.

The only thing that really stands out about the upcoming election is that if Trudeau wins we are going to keep digging ourselves deeper into this hole, and we're already well past the point where we can expect a recovery within the next 20 years. This country might be permanently screwed if he gets in again.

Would you honestly rather screw the country than do the sensible thing, just based on a principle that only you really believe in? Your vote is to help move the country in the right direction, not as a pulpit from which you can talk about your virtues.

The Trudeau bulldozer has Canada standing right on to the edge of a thousand foot cliff drop off. Another election win for the kid and he will be pushing Canada right over that edge and Canada will be doomed forever and sent into oblivion. There will be no coming back.  This prime mistake of ours will have then helped his old man complete his mission and destruction of a once great nation. 

Anyone know as to where I can get one of those make Canada great again hats? I saw someone wearing one a short while back. Or even better, one that says get rid of Trudeau. 

[taxme]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

No, it would appear for the time being to be a vote for a conservative party not beholden to special interests. We'll see whether Bernier's party emerges and how its platform develops, but at present I and apparently a lot of others are tired at the lack of options provided by the traditional tri-party cartel that runs the show in Ottawa.

You might be sorry. Split the conservative vote and you may be handing the election to Trudeau. Don't get me wrong here. I would love to see Bernier have a party and run in the next election and win but do you or I want to take a chance that Bernier might be able to pull something off here? I don't think so.  It is better to vote for a devil that we don't really know then vote for a devil that we already know.

Indeed the three main political party's in Ottawa have done nothing for the taxpayer's of Canada except to give them more taxes, more government, less freedom and more political correctness. They have pretty much shown us all as to how to go about becoming better at being a bunch of liars, cheats and thieves. When was it the last time the government did something good that made you feel great? Just wondering. All I have ever seen politicians do is make things worse than what they were before. The government is truly the enemy of we the people. Just saying. 

[turningrite]

4 minutes ago, taxme said:

You might be sorry. Split the conservative vote and you may be handing the election to Trudeau. Don't get me wrong here. I would love to see Bernier have a party and run in the next election and win but do you or I want to take a chance that Bernier might be able to pull something off here? I don't think so.  It is better to vote for a devil that we don't really know then vote for a devil that we already know.

Indeed the three main political party's in Ottawa have done nothing for the taxpayer's of Canada except to give them more taxes, more government, less freedom and more political correctness. They have pretty much shown us all as to how to go about becoming better at being a bunch of liars, cheats and thieves. When was it the last time the government did something good that made you feel great? Just wondering. All I have ever seen politicians do is make things worse than what they were before. The government is truly the enemy of we the people. Just saying. 

I'll take my chances on Bernier if his party gets off the ground. I tend to agree with him that any change under Scheer would merely be incremental. Canadians might get one last chance to change the direction of their politics and country. If we don't grasp it, we'll only have ourselves to blame. Nobody will be able to say there was nothing more on offer. A choice between the Trudeau government and something else that's more or less the same isn't really a choice, after all.

Edited August 29, 2018 by turningrite

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, taxme said:

Yup, if you want to try and destroy the credibility of an opponent then try and find and then try to nail that opponent on something that he/she may have said or done that appears to have been racist. It does not matter if that opponent said something that appeared to be racist 30 years ago. Bring it up anyway. Is that all politics has come down these days?  Play the racist card and hope that it works out for you. 

A politician should talk about real issues and concerns of the day and the racist word will disappear fast. If some candidate said something racist 5 or 20 years ago but told me that they were going to lower my taxes and get government off my back, shit, I could careless what he said that was racist. I will vote for him or her for sure.

 

 

That's what Trudeau's game is, and it gained him huge popularity. He can beat anyone at the racism game because he puts his own people last and talks badly about them all the time.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

When it was formed, the CPC was initially criticized as being too socially conservative. Now it seems, they are... too liberal.

What is socially conservative about the conservative party?

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, taxme said:

The Trudeau bulldozer has Canada standing right on to the edge of a thousand foot cliff drop off. Another election win for the kid and he will be pushing Canada right over that edge and Canada will be doomed forever and sent into oblivion. There will be no coming back.  This prime mistake of ours will have then helped his old man complete his mission and destruction of a once great nation. 

Anyone know as to where I can get one of those make Canada great again hats? I saw someone wearing one a short while back. Or even better, one that says get rid of Trudeau. 

You can get MAGA lookalike hats that say "Make Trudeau a drama teacher again". I have one lol.

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

 I tend to agree with him that any change under Scheer would merely be incremental. 

LMAO. He thinks that Scheer will keep the floodgates open?

Keep giving hundreds of million$ to foreign countries?

Pick fights with Trump, India and Saudi Arabia?

Pay off terrorists?

Kill the energy sector?

Drive away investment and cater to stupid Hollywood hypocrites?

Stop fighting terrorism?

Etc, etc, etc.

Bernier is one stupid piece of crap if he thinks anyone else would play his game.