The Helsinki debacle

[bush_cheney2004]

37 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I think you've lost the thread of the debate here.

 

I don't think so....Trump is doing that which he has always done,  and others have seemingly lost the plot.  

Jimmy Carter paid a much higher price for the "Iran debacle".

[paxamericana]

55 minutes ago, turningrite said:

3.) Unemployment had reached a record low in the wake of the policies implemented by the previous administration. Now, with Trump in power, the stock market performance for which he once took credit has wobbled and many economists are predicting an economic downturn. I read a recent piece by the economist Paul Krugman who noted that Trump's tariff policies are irrational and ill-advised. Oh well, as long as the base is happy that's all that matters, I guess.

Uh you mean when people stopped looking for job because they gave up during the obama era? Those kind of policies? Stock markets are mercurial, they're easily spooked and shouldn't be the basis of core economics indicators like actual gdp growth and jobs. Trump's policy are well informed and advised because it's countering China's and many other country's including you canada, predatory/protectionist economic policy, also its not about purely economic is it, lets face it its also strategic. Somethings are just worth the price like steel and aluminum. Also those economist who argue of a souring economy are only assuming that this trade war persist. What if we agree on a new Nafta as the mexican press pointed out they've actually agreed to and are now just waiting on trump after the midterms to sign off on the new deal. Don't forget we are a consumer economy that is very well diversified. Most of which are service sector jobs that aren't subject to many of the trade war fall out. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

1.) You're going there? Really? I'm simply saying that most in his base, like most Americans, are legendarily ill-informed about matters beyond their country's borders. It's a general observation made by many notable commentators over the years.

 

 

But the reality is that Canada pays a lot more attention to what happens in the U.S. out of perceived necessity, gorging itself on U.S. news and other media content...even using the social media platforms developed in the United States.   It is not so much that Americans are less informed, it is that Canada desperately seeks to be informed about one specific foreign country at all times.    Most Americans are indifferent to what happens in Canada...it just doesn't matter so much....never has.

This Trump story is a perfect example....eat it up Canada....there will always be more to come for Canadian noses pressed so hard against the glass to see what is happening...in America.  

Justin Trudeau whines on American television (60 Minutes):

Quote

Trudeau said Canadians must be aware of at least one other country, the United States, because of its importance.

"I think we sometimes like to think that, you know, Americans will pay attention to us from time to time, too," he said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-60-minutes-world-1.3476811

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It is not so much that Americans are less informed, it is that Canada desperately seeks to be informed about one specific foreign country at all times. 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh lorde. Cheney is off his meds again. Quick canada send some free healthcare ourway!

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, paxrom said:

Oh I'm fuming like a volcano after helsinki press conference. We'll see how this plays out. He'll either own up to it and admit his mistake(unlikely) or he will double down for his support of putin and try to squirm his way out by changing the topic (probably). 

That is the conservative way.  Especially works like a charm on other conservatives.

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

If Trump came after Putin blasting away with bravado, guess what - they'll still be dumping on Trump for not being diplomatic with Putin.  

Sorta like Trudeau vs Trump?

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, paxrom said:

Im not sure if there were sexual relations with putin but there were definitely no political collusion ;D

Are you kidding? Putin basically walked right up to Trump and grabbed him by the pussy.

[betsy]

Just saw the movie, Darkest Hour.....and I saw some parallel between Trump and Winston Churchill.

Edited July 18, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sorta like Trudeau vs Trump?

Well no.  Trudeau had been opening his big mouth since the primary race!  He took a partisan side - being the lackey boy of his big bud Obama.

I don't know what prompted it, but I just saw him yesterday doing another indirect "drive-by" on this issue by making a strong statement against Putin.  Of course, he doesn't dare openly criticize Trump for it - he's being the same catty Trudeau, again.

Edited July 18, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

12 hours ago, Machjo said:

I don't think Putin is the promiscuous type, let alone the gay type. I doubt Trump is gay either,

.....now, that makes me wonder about our Justin and Barack.   Could those rumours be true?

Edited July 18, 2018 by betsy

[paxamericana]

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

.....now, that makes me wonder about our Justin and Barack.   Could those rumours be true?

Stop it you Canadians are killing me with these tongue and cheek comments I'm just expecting you all to be polite conformist, don't change my southern views. 

[betsy]

5 hours ago, turningrite said:

I think you're responding to the wrong post here. In any case what I read before responding to you earlier was your accusation that others (with whom you apparently disagree) are having a meltdown. That's kind of judgmental on your part, don't you think?  Fair comment on my part, I think.

There's disagreement......and then, there's meltdown.    Again, I suggest you read their posts and figure it out why I said they're having a meltdown.

[Michael Hardner]

The best president the US never had, Hillary Clinton, explained it all during the debates: "Putin would rather have a puppet [Trump] win the election".  In the end, the US's need for entertainment, and reality TV has Trumped their need for economic and military security.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The best president the US never had, Hillary Clinton, explained it all during the debates: "Putin would rather have a puppet [Trump] win the election".  In the end, the US's need for entertainment, and reality TV has Trumped their need for economic and military security.

 

Meh...Canada is voluntarily dominated by American economics, culture, entertainment, military, etc. with weak complaint.

This is why Trump worries "allies" so much....they have no Plan B.

Post WW2 order has always been "Plan A"...for America.

Edited July 18, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

Again, I suggest you read their posts and figure it out why I said they're having a meltdown.

No, actually it's incumbent on you to reference the post(s) to which you were/are objecting. I started this topic, after all, so when objecting to your statement ( "Hahahaha.  Doesn't take much for the meltdown to begin!  Hahahaha) I had every reason to believe you were/are denigrating the content or nature of the entire discussion, including my contributions. The etiquette on this site, reasonably and logically, assumes that where a post doesn't quote or cite a specific post or comment it's essentially responding to the initial post and/or topic. There's a tendency among many on this site to post interjections and truncated critiques, which in my opinion isn't conducive to constructive debate. Perhaps your little meltdown is now under control? I hope so.

[turningrite]

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It is not so much that Americans are less informed, it is that Canada desperately seeks to be informed about one specific foreign country at all times.    Most Americans are indifferent to what happens in Canada...it just doesn't matter so much....never has.

This Trump story is a perfect example....eat it up Canada....there will always be more to come for Canadian noses pressed so hard against the glass to see what is happening...in America. 

Is there any foreign country about which most Americans are particularly well-informed? Hmmm....

The Trump debacle seems to have a legs in the U.S. media, too. We in Canada are as horrified and mesmerized as no doubt are viewers throughout the Western world. One big advantage we have in Canada, though, is our immediate access to U.S. news outlets. Our politics is comparatively boring, scripted and mundane. But we can watch the American drama unfold in real time, unfiltered. It's kind of like reality TV, which was Trump's former stomping ground, right? We don't need to press our noses to the glass to watch. It's in our living rooms here as much as it is in the living rooms of people living in, say, Iowa or Florida. We were unconvinced by Trump's embarrassing and halfhearted backtracking yesterday, no more or less so than were U.S. media commentators.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Is there any foreign country about which most Americans are particularly well-informed? Hmmm....

 

Certainly not most, but there are about 50 million foreign born Americans / residents (more than the entire population of Canada) who are informed about many nations to various degrees.   Deployed U.S. military personnel also get informed, if only at a superficial level.

There is no evidence that Canadians are more informed except when it comes to the USA.....maybe Cuba ?

 

Quote

The Trump debacle seems to have a legs in the U.S. media, too. We in Canada are as horrified and mesmerized as no doubt are viewers throughout the Western world. One big advantage we have in Canada, though, is our immediate access to U.S. news outlets. Our politics is comparatively boring, scripted and mundane. But we can watch the American drama unfold in real time, unfiltered. It's kind of like reality TV, which was Trump's former stomping ground, right? We don't need to press our noses to the glass to watch. It's in our living rooms here as much as it is in the living rooms of people living in, say, Iowa or Florida. We were unconvinced by Trump's embarrassing and halfhearted backtracking yesterday, no more or less so than were U.S. media commentators.

 

Well, the story should have legs in the U.S., as Trump is POTUS.   Canada has gorged itself on U.S. media and cultural content for generations, irrespective of Trump, and it will continue to do so.   It is what Canada is use to, and change is hard.    Trudeau says that the U.S. is very very important to Canada, so Canadians watch it closely.

I agree that Canada is comparatively boring and mundane.    America has far more sizzle.

Edited July 18, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Jimwd]

12 hours ago, paxrom said:

What if Trump is a genius and that the Helsinki press conference was actually a fourth level chess move. I mean if you look at the outrage today against Russia, it is unequivocally clear all Americans hate their guts. 

..Trump is illiterate . He can’t spell and he constantly gets caught lying . Latest example was the sun interview he claimed was fake news. They had it recorded busting trump as a liar.AGAIN.

[turningrite]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

There is no evidence that Canadians are more informed except when it comes to the USA.....maybe Cuba ?

Really? I doubt that many objective observers would agree with you. I think it starts in school. In high school, at least when I attended, Canadian history was relegated to a single grade. In other years, we took credits or half-credits in Ancient (Greek and Roman) history, American history, and British and European history. And on average more Canadians are better informed than are Americans about international geography as well. I've read that a National Geographic study concluded that American students rank below their counterparts in almost all other countries surveyed, including Canada, the UK and Germany, in their international geographical knowledge. Such knowledge gaps have political implications and consequences. According to a 2014 Washington Post article, Americans who couldn't identify Ukraine on a world map were more likely to support American military intervention in that country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0e0cd6fdc644

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Really? I doubt that many objective observers would agree with you. I think it starts in school. In high school, at least when I attended,

 

Well, how long ago was that ?    Average Canadians are not experts on international affairs any more than average Americans are or should be, with a subset of world travelers who are from both nations.    Canadian news media and education parrots back a lot of U.S. based content, sources, etc.  The social media apps used by Canadians are by and large from the USA.    Domestic public data/information is far better integrated and available in the U.S. than in Canada....several members here routinely quote American references on topics because it is so much more difficult to find Canadian data/sources. 

Trump's visit to NATO, UK, and Finland received far more attention than Trudeau's debacle trip to Asia.

 

 

 

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is why Trump worries "allies" so much....they have no Plan B.

Hopefully they'll start coming up with one soon enough - the ugliest face of America is a capricious one and Trump reflects it in a manner that should give pause to re-consider.  We've seen it before however to little effect and that's probably why a fairly sizable number of America's allies citizens worry so much...fingers crossed though.

[Machjo]

7 hours ago, betsy said:

.....now, that makes me wonder about our Justin and Barack.   Could those rumours be true?

Are you saying Barack was bribing Trudeau with prostitutes? I thought Trudeau was a feminist?

[Argus]

19 hours ago, paxrom said:

Its a bit ironic to sit there steaming about trump's remark in Helsinki when there were plenty of other remarks he made that offended a vast swathe of liberals.

Why would you think his remarks would only offend liberals? They offend me. HE offends me, and I'm no damned liberal.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, paxrom said:

Uh you mean when people stopped looking for job because they gave up during the obama era? 

Can you point to s single thing Trump has done which deserves any credit for a strong US economy? I'm curious, because his only legislative accomplishment (not that it was him, but rather, the Republicans in Congress) is the tax cuts which will add trillions to the debt, and weaken America in the future. BTW, when did debt and deficit become irrelevant to the Republicans? When did the Republicans stop being fiscal conservatives?

Trump's policy are well informed and advised because it's countering China's and many other country's including you canada, predatory/protectionist economic policy, also its not about purely economic is it, lets face it its also strategic. Somethings are just worth the price like steel and aluminum.

The US, and indeed, the whole West, has strong claims on China's predatory trade practices, and have for years. I don't fault Trump going after them. here is much less of a case to be made against the EU, and none against Canada. As I've said before, under NAFTA, 99% of trade between the US and Canada has no tariffs. What few remain - on both sides - were negotiated into the agreement. In terms of steel and aluminum, the US exports more steel to Canada than it imports from Canada. It does import more aluminum but it hasn't got the capacity to supply its own market. The tarrifs are mostly simply increasing prices for all manufactured goods across the board in the US which then makes them less competitive.

As to Mexico, their inclusion was also strategic, as you say. Since NAFTA, and the jobs it has brought to Mexico, more Mexicans are crossing the border headed south than north. And many of the jobs which went there would have wound up in China anyway.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus

[paxamericana]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

Can you point to s single thing Trump has done which deserves any credit for a strong US economy? I'm curious, because his only legislative accomplishment (not that it was him, but rather, the Republicans in Congress) is the tax cuts which will add trillions to the debt, and weaken America in the future. BTW, when did debt and deficit become irrelevant to the Republicans? When did the Republicans stop being fiscal conservatives?

Actually yes, the tax cut helps spending, along with reduce tax rates to do business. Actually if you think about it, gdp growth solves a lot of problem. yes tax cut hurt in the short run but with increased labor and people entering the work place you get more tax revenue. Growth reduces deficit.