The Great Immigration Debate

[taxme]

On 7/3/2018 at 3:47 PM, paxrom said:

where's taxme....

Right here. 

[taxme]

On 7/3/2018 at 3:47 PM, paxrom said:

where's taxme....

Who cares about poor white people? It's of their own choosing that they are poor. The rest out there were forced into being poor and in poverty thanks to that poor old wicked whitey.  

[marcus]

7 hours ago, taxme said:

The problem is that all this nonsense about these illegals having their children taken away from them deserved it. They broke the law so why should anyone feel sorry for them. They SHOULD have not entered America illegally. When an American parent/s are convicted of a crime their children are taken away from them. So, what is the difference? Anyway, that policy of separating children from parents has ended thanks to Trump and not Obama.  

But with this liberal mouth piece he wants to pretend that this has only started under Trump's presidency of separating children from parents.

I'm not an Obama supporter. I'm, of course, not a Trump supporter either.

That said, we need to get the context and information right when discussing these topics. As far as I have researched, under Obama, children were not separated from parents. This law, which has been in place for some time, was only followed under Trump.

I love to be proven wrong.

7 hours ago, taxme said:

It was the rule of the day to do so. Obama during his reign of terror had children locked up in dog cages while their parents were locked up in a jail somewhere. It was shown on TV and on the internet.

Back this up with links to information and these videos you're talking about.

 

7 hours ago, taxme said:

 

These pretend loving and caring liberals would be the last ones to take any of those children into their homes. Liberals are all for allowing every criminal illegal to stay in America and open the border gates for all to enter willy-nilly just like this silly ass liberal prime mistake of ours is allowing to happen in Canada today. 

Even this dumb blond Latino communist that was just voted into office in New York state as Governor

She's not the Governor. She is a house rep. Well, not officially, as her challenger has not officially accepted it. She won because of many of the reasons Trump won. They both beat the establishment.

Also, dumb? blond? 

 

[taxme]

12 hours ago, marcus said:

I'm not an Obama supporter. I'm, of course, not a Trump supporter either.

That said, we need to get the context and information right when discussing these topics. As far as I have researched, under Obama, children were not separated from parents. This law, which has been in place for some time, was only followed under Trump.

I love to be proven wrong.

Back this up with links to information and these videos you're talking about.

 

She's not the Governor. She is a house rep. Well, not officially, as her challenger has not officially accepted it. She won because of many of the reasons Trump won. They both beat the establishment.

Also, dumb? blond? 

 

Back it up yourself. It is all there on the internet. Do you know how to use the internet? Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingram of FOX news also has shown many times on their shows where children were shown being locked up in cages like dogs and which did happen during Obama's watch and reign of terror against America. There is your link. FOX news. Try it out sometimes. You might learn something for a change. Just saying. 

Whatever she is she is a communist who wants open borders, abolish prisons, and abolish ICE. In other words let's destroy America and hand it over to her and her communist ilk. The people who voted for her are beyond stupid. Voting for a liberal, a socialist or a communist means that you want to give up your freedom and become a slave to communism.  

There is a fight going on in the democratic party between the old guard and her which is great for Trump and conservatism. While they fight among themselves, Trump slides up the middle. 

She must be dumb if she is a communist. How can anyone today call themselves a communist in America when we all should know by now what communism has done to people in the past and is still doing to innocent people right now. She is a blond and that might just explain it all. Just saying. Chuckle-chuckle. 

[Hudson Jones]

It's important to understand what is happening before having an opinion on it - This information shows the similarity and the differences between Obama and Trump when it comes to prosecution of border crossers:

Both presidents prosecuted many border crossers. But Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy created family separation.

Prosecuting people for illegal entry into the US is not new. Illegal entry and illegal reentry have been the two most commonly prosecuted crimes in federal court for years — often via mass trials that basically prosecuted dozens of people at once. Obama didn’t start this trend, but he certainly continued it.

While people charged with illegal entry or reentry made up as much as half of all people prosecuted in federal court in April 2018, they still made up only 10 percent of all people Border Patrol apprehended for crossing into the US between ports of entry.

In other words, officials were still deciding not to prosecute a lot of people — or, at least, didn’t have the resources to prosecute a lot of people and so had to be deliberate in deciding who deserved to be prosecuted. As a general rule — though not always — people who said they feared persecution in their home countries and wanted asylum were not prosecuted. Neither were people who came to the US with their children.

In April 2018, however, Trump’s Justice Department (led by Jeff Sessions) announced that they would start prosecuting every illegal entry case referred to them by the Department of Homeland Security. And in May 2018, Sessions and the Department of Homeland Security announced that they would start referring everyone who entered illegally for prosecution: “zero tolerance.”

The Trump administration isn’t actually prosecuting everyone who crosses the border between ports of entry yet — or even the majority of them. But the implied corollary to the “zero tolerance” policy was that the Trump administration would no longer make decisions about whom to prosecute based on whether someone was seeking asylum — or whether they were a parent.

That meant that parents were now being referred into the custody of the Department of Justice — while their children were separated from them and reclassified as “unaccompanied minors.”

Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

It’s not that no family was ever separated at the border under the Obama administration. But former Obama administration officials specify that families were separated only in particular circumstances — for instance, if a father was carrying drugs — that went above and beyond a typical case of illegal entry.

We don’t know how often that happened, but we know it was not a widespread or standard practice.

Under the Trump administration, though, it became increasingly common. A test of “zero tolerance” along one sector of the border in summer 2017 led to an unknown number of family separations. Seven hundred families were separated between October 2017 and April 2018.

From May 7 to June 20, separating a family who had entered between ports of entry was the standard practice of the Trump administration. It was the default.

Trump administration officials denied family separation was a “policy” for legalistic reasons, but they affirmed that “zero tolerance” prosecutions were a policy. Until Trump signed an executive order on Wednesday allowing families to be kept together in immigration detention while parents were prosecuted, the administration maintained that separating families was an inevitable outcome of prosecuting parents.

Not every family was separated. But dozens of families a day were. At least 2,300 families were separated over those six or so weeks.

We don’t know how many families were separated under the Obama administration, but there’s no reason to believe that it numbered in the thousands even over the eight years that Obama was president. Because it simply wasn’t standard practice. Under Trump, it was.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Hudson Jones

[bush_cheney2004]

25 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said:

...We don’t know how many families were separated under the Obama administration, but there’s no reason to believe that it numbered in the thousands even over the eight years that Obama was president. Because it simply wasn’t standard practice. Under Trump, it was.

 

In other words, the Obama administration did separate some illegal immigrant families, but the social justice warriors and press decided not to flip out over it.  Detentions, separations, and deportations under Obama good....detentions, separations, and deportations under Trump bad.   Got it.

[Hudson Jones]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

In other words, the Obama administration did separate some illegal immigrant families, but the social justice warriors and press decided not to flip out over it.  Detentions, separations, and deportations under Obama good....detentions, separations, and deportations under Trump bad.   Got it.

The Social Justice Warriors do mysteriously forget the parallels between Obama and Trump's policies. That's for sure.

One difference between Trump's policy when it came to"separating children from parents" is that Obama only did it in particular circumstances, like for example, if a parent was carrying drugs. Under Trump, every family was separated.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Hudson Jones

[ZavHoz]

Sorry for my English.

Good topic and such intelligent people participating. I just couldn't pass by without expressing my LIBERAL point of view. lol

There are two ways to create a new labor unite:

1) find a man and a woman and order them to f... each other (if you can of course), then you must wait 20-30 years and spend a ton of effort and money to bring the child up, but you can fail

2) you can import the ready one from abroad, so you don't have to wait 20-30 years. If the guy is bad, you can send him back. He won't stay to become a beggar or drankard or drug addict.

In the light of the fact, that your population is aging and YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LABOUR force, what option would you prefer?

I guess your choice is obvious.

People come to your country, work their asses off, pay taxes, but you still don't like immigrants (btw you are ALL immigrants).

Immigrant can't drink, be on drugs, do anything illegal etc., because unlike YOU immigrant will loose f..n everything, if he does this. If you compare the criminal rate among "citizens" and "immigrants", you will be shocked I swear. You think typical immigrant think like this "I will come to their country to steal, rape and murder'? lol The most of immigrants come TO SURVIVE. And in order to do that they have to be extra cautious, so not to violate the law.

 

So, why do you hate them so much? I have the answer!

Because you are afraid of competition. Without restrictions, you will be replaced by immigrants who are ready to work their ass off for less. Especialy, rednecks are afraid. They think that the only fact that they were born in the US is sufficient to hire them instead of that guy from abroad.

You can quetly cry in the corner that those f///n liberals admitted the immigrants to your country and you lost competition to them.

P.S. Please, express your disagreement with my point of view in the suicidal form. Thank you.

[paxamericana]

25 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

Because you are afraid of competition. Without restrictions, you will be replaced by immigrants who are ready to work their ass off for less. Especialy, rednecks are afraid. They think that the only fact that they were born in the US is sufficient to hire them instead of that guy from abroad.

You can quetly cry in the corner that those f///n liberals admitted the immigrants to your country and you lost competition to them.

P.S. Please, express your disagreement with my point of view in the suicidal form. Thank you.

Its not just competition for jobs its changing culture and potential crimes. Don't pretend crimes don't rise with increased illegal immigration. It happens everywhere there are illegal immigrant from Europe to the united states.Legal Immigrants are good, so contrary to your "liberal" views most Americans think legal immigration is a great thing, where we differ is how who and where. Progressive advocate for a open border policy encouraging illegal immigration, conservative don't support open borders. They differ on who can get in and who can stay. But both want to see legal immigration through the vetting process and people with high skilled labor to contribute to society. We don't need low skill labor flooding the market and asking the state to pay for their welfare bringing along with them poverty and inevitably, crimes. 

I'm not committing sepuku by replying to your conflated views, simply stating the shortfall of your statements. 

[ZavHoz]

15 hours ago, paxrom said:

Its not just competition for jobs its changing culture and potential crimes. Don't pretend crimes don't rise with increased illegal immigration. It happens everywhere there are illegal immigrant from Europe to the united states.Legal Immigrants are good, so contrary to your "liberal" views most Americans think legal immigration is a great thing, where we differ is how who and where. Progressive advocate for a open border policy encouraging illegal immigration, conservative don't support open borders. They differ on who can get in and who can stay. But both want to see legal immigration through the vetting process and people with high skilled labor to contribute to society. We don't need low skill labor flooding the market and asking the state to pay for their welfare bringing along with them poverty and inevitably, crimes. 

I'm not committing sepuku by replying to your conflated views, simply stating the shortfall of your statements. 

lol

Please, try to understand this simple example.

10 babies were born in the US, 10 babies were brought to the US illegaly. What group will have more criminals among them? I guess you know the answer.

Any illigal kid being cought for theft will be f//n deported while the local one will stay.

So, what the f///k you are talking about?

Of course any increase in population will increase the number of crimes, you stable genious or captain obvious or both lol 

You and such idiots like trump always use absolute numbers instead of relative, because you had problems with math I guess.

Immigrants, especially, illigal try to f//n stay lower then grass and percentage of criminals among them is MUUUUUCH lower than among people who were born in the US.

About wellfare - lol. Where you f//n saw illigal imigrants applying for wellfare? What do you smoke? Could you sell me some of that stuff you had smoked before you wrote that? It's like trump's millions of illigal imigrants who were not afraid of comming and voting against him lol

 

[ZavHoz]

I know you will be all frustrated, but the truth is that most immigrants have conservative views. Why? Because they stick to the rule "who doesn't work, doesn't eat". They don't understand why they have to work their asses off and pay taxes that government allocates to rednecks who don't want to work hard or don't want to leave their shitty town to find a job somewhere else.

Edited July 18, 2018 by ZavHoz

[ZavHoz]

About immigration and how it works.

To produce iPhone100 you have two options:

1) import 100 chineese from China, build a factory in the US, so all taxes will stay in the US

2) build a factory in China, hire 100 chineese there, so all taxes will be paid in China, but you will be able to collect tarrif

If government chooses the first option (import of labor), then it has to open the borders and raise the tarrifs.

Otherwise government should import products, then it has to close the borders for immigrants and get rid of tarrifs.

If you raise tarrifs and close the border, this means that you are IDIOT like trump. This means that you don't want to import neither labor nor products. It leads to only one thing - decrease of production everywhere.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

1) find a man and a woman and order them to f... each other (if you can of course), then you must wait 20-30 years and spend a ton of effort and money to bring the child up, but you can fail

There are policies which can be put in place to encourage more children, mostly related to maternity leave and child care. That should be tried first.

15 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

2) you can import the ready one from abroad, so you don't have to wait 20-30 years. If the guy is bad, you can send him back. He won't stay to become a beggar or drankard or drug addict.

The problem is he can't be sent back easily. The legal system of protections in Western countries means that it can take A lot of expensive, time consuming court hearings and appeals and more appeals before someone, even an illegal immigrant, can be deported.

15 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

In the light of the fact, that your population is aging and YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LABOUR force, what option would you prefer?

There is no foreseeable shortage of labour.

15 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

People come to your country, work their asses off, pay taxes, but you still don't like immigrants (btw you are ALL immigrants).

People come to our country work their asses off, and may or may not pay taxes. Or they may not work at all and simply live on welfare. Or they may work a little, at some menial job that doesn't pay very well, and then pay no taxes (a progressive tax system means low wage earners pay no income tax). Or they may become criminals, raping and robbing and dealing drugs. 

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

I know you will be all frustrated, but the truth is that most immigrants have conservative views. Why? Because they stick to the rule "who doesn't work, doesn't eat". They don't understand why they have to work their asses off and pay taxes that government allocates to rednecks who don't want to work hard or don't want to leave their shitty town to find a job somewhere else.

I don't know how it is in the United States, but in Canada, most immigrants live in the big cities, and the big cities consistently vote for left wing parties which raise taxes and promise big spending programs on the poor. So I'm afraid I see no evidence to support your belief. Actually now that I think about it, most immigrants to the US go to the big cities too. And the big cities mostly vote for the Democrats, not the Republicans. So the rule holds there too.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

About wellfare - lol. Where you f//n saw illigal imigrants applying for wellfare? What do you smoke? Could you sell me some of that stuff you had smoked before you wrote that? It's like trump's millions of illigal imigrants who were not afraid of comming and voting against him lol

Many big cities in both Canada and the United States have declared themselves 'sanctuary cities' and make all city services, including health care, welfare public housing, etc. available without ever questioning a person's citizenship. If they discover they are illegals, they ignore it, and will not report it to immigration authorities. 

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

 

10 babies were born in the US, 10 babies were brought to the US illegaly. What group will have more criminals among 

Actually yes, crime and poverty goes hand in hand. Let me be clear I am not faulting the individual just the circumstances of their socio-economic ladder. Poverty does not discriminate. I have a lot of teacher friends who work in these under privilege area and I can absolutely tell you. Poverty is rampant amongst families of illegals. Similarly the crime rates for these neighborhood is also high. 

Trump is not a racist actually, you're believing the global banking elitist liberal view.  Trump is a populist, an economic nationalist. Don't buy into the liberal views that we are racist, infact you'll lose another election if you subscribe to the liberal agenda of identity politics. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

There are policies which can be put in place to encourage more children, mostly related to maternity leave and child care. That should be tried first.

The problem is he can't be sent back easily. The legal system of protections in Western countries means that it can take A lot of expensive, time consuming court hearings and appeals and more appeals before someone, even an illegal immigrant, can be deported.

There is no foreseeable shortage of labour.

People come to our country work their asses off, and may or may not pay taxes. Or they may not work at all and simply live on welfare. Or they may work a little, at some menial job that doesn't pay very well, and then pay no taxes (a progressive tax system means low wage earners pay no income tax). Or they may become criminals, raping and robbing and dealing drugs. 

 

 

What policies? If I tell you everyday that you must have kids, I may even promise you some support, will you obey me or say f//k u, I'm a free independent person? lol Don't talk shit, ok?

Every country, where women have at least some rights, has problem with birth rate. So, either go to some muslim country to make babies or shut up?

 

There is no shortage of labor? Who said that? You? Did you try to ask businessmen in your country? Did you visit monster, indeed, linkedin? lol

 

How many unemployed illigal immigrants do you personaly know? Oh, yeah. trump told you. He cannnot lie. He said the truth.lol I don't know anyone. Ssssssssory...

 

Then as I understand you said that IRS discriminates you based on your citizenship. So, IRS does not prosecute immigrants, only citizens. lol You must write a letter with this complaint to trump. Such shit didn't come even to his stupid mind. )))))))))))))))))))))

Edited July 18, 2018 by ZavHoz

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't know how it is in the United States, but in Canada, most immigrants live in the big cities, and the big cities consistently vote for left wing parties which raise taxes and promise big spending programs on the poor. So I'm afraid I see no evidence to support your belief. Actually now that I think about it, most immigrants to the US go to the big cities too. And the big cities mostly vote for the Democrats, not the Republicans. So the rule holds there too.

I'm from Toronto.

Who won the elections? lol (starts with f)

Could you show the photos of conservatives who win? They are all white I guess. lol

Immigrants are not eligible to participate in elections. It's a criminal offence (suddenly).

...idiot

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Many big cities in both Canada and the United States have declared themselves 'sanctuary cities' and make all city services, including health care, welfare public housing, etc. available without ever questioning a person's citizenship. If they discover they are illegals, they ignore it, and will not report it to immigration authorities. 

Sssssory, that I have to explain such simple things, but what can I do...

Do you know why cops do not arrest drug addicts in the special shelters? Try to use your brain, if you have one to answer this question.

There are people who need help and that need outweights the problems that they have.

Do you know that even if you stay in the US illigaly you still can pay taxes and no one will try to find you? Untill this moment I guess (trump likes immigrants)

Why? Because immigration offence is considered minor thing in comparison with not paying taxes. So, if you commited minor offence, they try not to force you to commit a larger one.

Did you get it? No? 

Edited July 18, 2018 by ZavHoz

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, paxrom said:

Actually yes, crime and poverty goes hand in hand. Let me be clear I am not faulting the individual just the circumstances of their socio-economic ladder. Poverty does not discriminate. I have a lot of teacher friends who work in these under privilege area and I can absolutely tell you. Poverty is rampant amongst families of illegals. Similarly the crime rates for these neighborhood is also higher. 

Again you are trying to compare you ass with your bum. But it is good. At least you started comparing things instead of using absolute numbers.

Let's compare smth comparable. Ok? Let's compare poor migrant area with poor black area. What?  Why are you running away? )))))))))))))))))

Or let's compare rich migrant area with rich black area, for example. What? Again?

Are you able to understand that if immigrant is accused of smth he faces dire consequinces? He looses EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[paxamericana]

5 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

Again you are trying to compare you ass with your bum. But it is good. At least you started comparing things instead of using absolute numbers.

Let's compare smth comparable. Ok? Let's compare poor migrant area with poor black area. What?  Why are you running away? )))))))))))))))))

Or let's compare rich migrant area with rich black area, for example. What? Again?

Are you able to understand that if immigrant is accused of smth he faces dire consequinces? He looses EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are conflating the differences between good immigration, LEGAL immigration and illegal immigration. Immigrants are great, 50 million of us are immigrants and the rest are decedents of immigrants. We are not anti-immigrant, get that in your head first please!!!

 

The problem with illegal immigration is that it brings poverty along with crimes because those who enter illegally do not have the merit to enter legally in the first place! We need skilled immigrant who can work high paying jobs to provide for them selves. Not low income wage laborer who need social welfare support in the form of hospitals and school without paying taxes. Illegal immigrant don't have work visas and can't get high paying jobs. If they can't get high paying jobs then how can they lift themselves out of poverty??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[ZavHoz]

Here, I found some illigal immigrant who formed a gang of his own and even was elected as the first US president. 

Where is his f///n birth certificate, I ask you? Show me it, you hipocrats!!!!!

[paxamericana]

44 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

Here, I found some illigal immigrant who formed a gang of his own and even was elected as the first US president. 

Where is his f///n birth certificate, I ask you? Show me it, you hipocrats!!!!!

Uh did the Indians have a immigration policy for European settlers? No and that's why they were displaced. I just used your own logic against you....

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

What policies?

I already explained that.

Quote

f I tell you everyday that you must have kids, I may even promise you some support, will you obey me or say

Having children is something the majority of women WANT to do. They don't need to be forced. If there were better mat leave and child care they might well have a little more than they do now.

Quote

There is no shortage of labor? Who said that? You? Did you try to ask businessmen in your country? Did you visit monster, indeed, linkedin? lol

I don't need to visit job sites. In a Capitalist system, there is never a shortage of labour until there is full employment. Full employment is a great thing. It does bring problems, but those problems are again solved by Capitalism. Employers compete with higher wages to get employees. Inflation rises, and the economy slows down so there is no longer full employment and a labour shortage.

The theory that there is or will be a labour shortage due to an aging population is not sustained by any studies I'm aware of, while I have seen several published in Canada - which has a lower birth rate than the US - which say there is no foreseeable labour shortage.

Quote

How many unemployed illigal immigrants do you personaly know?

There are cities which do not check ones citizenship and will pay welfare to anyone. They happen to be cities with a lot of immigrants. 

Quote

Then as I understand you said that IRS discriminates you based on your citizenship. So, IRS does not prosecute immigrants, only citizens. lol You must write a letter with this complaint to trump. Such shit didn't come even to his stupid mind. )))))))))))))))))))))

I make allowances for your poor grasp of written English, but I see no need to make allowances for your ignorant, disrespectful manner. If you don't want me to return the same attitude - but much more eloquently - I suggest you stop.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

I mak

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

I'm from Toronto.

Who won the elections? lol (starts with f)

Who won most of the seats in central Toronto? It wasn't Ford.

Toronto is a sanctuary city, so no doubt you are on welfare there.

Quote

Could you show the photos of conservatives who win? They are all white I guess. lol

Immigrants are not eligible to participate in elections. It's a criminal offence (suddenly).

...idiot

I'll assume 'idiot' is your way of signing your name. It's appropriate given your astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Immigrants, dullard, become citizens, and citizens vote. If you can ever pass a test sufficient to become one, even you can vote. There is no test for intelligence.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus