The Great Immigration Debate

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

There are people who need help and that need outweights the problems that they have.

Irrelevant to what I said. You said immigrants could not get welfare. I pointed out they can, and now you're trying to say there's good reason for that. But without acknowledging you were wrong in the first place. Which makes you dishonest, in addition to your numerous other demonstrated character flaws.

1 hour ago, ZavHoz said:

Do you know that even if you stay in the US illigaly you still can pay taxes and no one will try to find you?

Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. Perhaps, in some states, they pay some small amount of sales tax, but that's it.

 

[turningrite]

43 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Uh did the Indians have a immigration policy for European settlers? No and that's why they were displaced. I just used your own logic against you....

The development of border controls and immigration policies is actually quite recent. The Indians (Indigenous in Canada, unless you want to be subjected to scorn) didn't have an immigration policy and neither did anybody else at the time. On a more amusing note, when I asked one of my American relatives why Indian/Indigenous relations are far less controversial in the U.S. than in Canada despite the fact there are far more North American Indians living in the U.S. and Canadian Indigenous peoples are afforded greater government support on a per capita basis, he said "we defeated them so our rules apply." Wow, I thought, that's pretty forthright.

Edited July 18, 2018 by turningrite

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, paxrom said:

The problem with illegal immigration is that it brings poverty along with crimes because those who enter illegally do not have the merit to enter legally in the first place! We need skilled immigrant who can work high paying jobs to provide for them selves. Not low income wage laborer who need social welfare support in the form of hospitals and school without paying taxes. Illegal immigrant don't have work visas and can't get high paying jobs. If they can't get high paying jobs then how can they lift themselves out of poverty??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Lies. Tough what else can I expect from the brainwashed trumpist. lol

MOST so called illegal immigrants cross the US border LEGALY. Write down somewhere that f//n basic FACT or you'll forget about that tomorrow, Dory.

They just stay in the US after their visa expired.

That's why border wall is USELESS!!! It won't help.

What kind of poverty they bring? Where did you see poor immigrants? They are less poor than rednecks and MUCH less criminal. 

Why? Do you want me to repeat again? They will be fuckin deported!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For example, let's take latinos. All latino criminals whom you can see in the criminal news are (TA-DAM) CITIZENS. Otherwise they would be deported long time ago. Do not confuse your criminal CITIZENS with law-abiding immigrants, ok?

About low-skilled workers. Try to propose to redneck to clean up your table in a bar. What? So, you need low-skilled workers, right?

[paxamericana]

9 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

Lies. Tough what else can I expect from the brainwashed trumpist. lol

MOST so called illegal immigrants cross the US border LEGALY. Write down somewhere that f//n basic FACT or you'll forget about that tomorrow, Dory.

They just stay in the US after their visa expired.

That's why border wall is USELESS!!! It won't help.

What kind of poverty they bring? Where did you see poor immigrants? They are less poor than rednecks and MUCH less criminal. 

Why? Do you want me to repeat again? They will be fuckin deported!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For example, let's take latinos. All latino criminals whom you can see in the criminal news are (TA-DAM) CITIZENS. Otherwise they would be deported long time ago. Do not confuse your criminal CITIZENS with law-abiding immigrants, ok?

About low-skilled workers. Try to propose to redneck to clean up your table in a bar. What? So, you need low-skilled workers, right?

Jeeze man take a chill pill, I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your ideas. 

True the border wall won't help those who got in legally through the visa process and over stayed. LOLS 

They are not the problem and we aren't prosecuting them as illegals when it comes to immigration. It's the people who crosses the border through neighboring countries using human traffickers that's the concern. 

Those "rednecks" are working class blue collar workers. They need jobs that trump is bringing back to lift themselves out of poverty. Same for the Latinos. 

Stop bringing up race or ethnicity, poverty doesn't discriminate, poverty doesn't care about your ethnicity, race, religion, sexual orientation etc.... I don't buy the identity politics bull shit. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[ZavHoz]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Having children is something the majority of women WANT to do. They don't need to be forced. If there were better mat leave and child care they might well have a little more than they do now.

I guess you're male teenager. ))))))))))))) You will tell women what to do... I know. Every dictator tried and failed. If woman can earn her own living without a man, there will be no more than two kids in a family on average and that's not enough to keep at least the same number of population. And any measures do not work. They do not work ANYWHERE in this world, even in Scandinavia where they have abundent wellfare packege.

Only one thing works - total prohibition of female employment and controception. Then women will stay at home and give birth to multiple children.

Do you want to live in such country? Welcome to arabian emirates then!!! What the f//k are you doing here?

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, paxrom said:

Uh did the Indians have a immigration policy for European settlers? No and that's why they were displaced. I just used your own logic against you....

So you do agree that George Washington was an illegal immigrant who suplant the native population? )))))))))))

So you think it's ok to do the same thing now?

[ZavHoz]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't need to visit job sites. In a Capitalist system, there is never a shortage of labour until there is full employment. Full employment is a great thing. It does bring problems, but those problems are again solved by Capitalism. Employers compete with higher wages to get employees. Inflation rises, and the economy slows down so there is no longer full employment and a labour shortage.

The theory that there is or will be a labour shortage due to an aging population is not sustained by any studies I'm aware of, while I have seen several published in Canada - which has a lower birth rate than the US - which say there is no foreseeable labour shortage.

lol. So, all those immigrants around me (in banks, bars, offices etc.) were not needed. You need to write about it to Trudeu, he is not aware of it!!!

I bet your boss is complaining that he can't find good employees, he is also unaware. Tell your boss to stop moaning, Canada has sufficient work force.

About aging population. Could you send me links to those studies you mensioned?

I graduated from Seneca college (Financial Planning Program) with honours and passed all provincial exams. I need to tell them that they tought me BULLSHIT about the Canadian labor market and it's future impact on the pension system. )))))))))))))))))))

Together we will rip down that f//n conspiracy of lecturers and officials!!!!!!!! Come on, send me the links!!!!))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

There are cities which do not check ones citizenship and will pay welfare to anyone. They happen to be cities with a lot of immigrants. 

 

Could you, please, tell me the name of the city and how I can get wellfare? I'm eager to get there. ))))))))))))

(there is no such one)

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I make allowances for your poor grasp of written English, but I see no need to make allowances for your ignorant, disrespectful manner. If you don't want me to return the same attitude - but much more eloquently - I suggest you stop.

That's why I'm here. To get some practise in written English.

Sorry for abusing you ))))))))

Nothing personal, just practise (c) allmost Godfather

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Toronto is a sanctuary city, so no doubt you are on welfare there.

I'll assume 'idiot' is your way of signing your name. It's appropriate given your astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Immigrants, dullard, become citizens, and citizens vote. If you can ever pass a test sufficient to become one, even you can vote. There is no test for intelligence.

I bought 2 bedroom condo in Toronto. Also, I have a substantial amount of money in my account.

I work 60 hours a week. 

Now I need to get 7 for writting part of IELTS, I hope you'll help me ))))))))))))))

I'm very ignorant and have lack of knowledge, I confess. But still I bet I'm more intelligent than you lol

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Irrelevant to what I said. You said immigrants could not get welfare. I pointed out they can, and now you're trying to say there's good reason for that. But without acknowledging you were wrong in the first place. Which makes you dishonest, in addition to your numerous other demonstrated character flaws.

Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. Perhaps, in some states, they pay some small amount of sales tax, but that's it.

 

So, how can I get wellfare? Please, reveal this valueable information. I swear that I'll tell only my friends who are immigrants too. )))))))))))

[taxme]

On 7/16/2018 at 2:03 PM, Hudson Jones said:

It's important to understand what is happening before having an opinion on it - This information shows the similarity and the differences between Obama and Trump when it comes to prosecution of border crossers:

Both presidents prosecuted many border crossers. But Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy created family separation.

Prosecuting people for illegal entry into the US is not new. Illegal entry and illegal reentry have been the two most commonly prosecuted crimes in federal court for years — often via mass trials that basically prosecuted dozens of people at once. Obama didn’t start this trend, but he certainly continued it.

While people charged with illegal entry or reentry made up as much as half of all people prosecuted in federal court in April 2018, they still made up only 10 percent of all people Border Patrol apprehended for crossing into the US between ports of entry.

In other words, officials were still deciding not to prosecute a lot of people — or, at least, didn’t have the resources to prosecute a lot of people and so had to be deliberate in deciding who deserved to be prosecuted. As a general rule — though not always — people who said they feared persecution in their home countries and wanted asylum were not prosecuted. Neither were people who came to the US with their children.

In April 2018, however, Trump’s Justice Department (led by Jeff Sessions) announced that they would start prosecuting every illegal entry case referred to them by the Department of Homeland Security. And in May 2018, Sessions and the Department of Homeland Security announced that they would start referring everyone who entered illegally for prosecution: “zero tolerance.”

The Trump administration isn’t actually prosecuting everyone who crosses the border between ports of entry yet — or even the majority of them. But the implied corollary to the “zero tolerance” policy was that the Trump administration would no longer make decisions about whom to prosecute based on whether someone was seeking asylum — or whether they were a parent.

That meant that parents were now being referred into the custody of the Department of Justice — while their children were separated from them and reclassified as “unaccompanied minors.”

Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

It’s not that no family was ever separated at the border under the Obama administration. But former Obama administration officials specify that families were separated only in particular circumstances — for instance, if a father was carrying drugs — that went above and beyond a typical case of illegal entry.

We don’t know how often that happened, but we know it was not a widespread or standard practice.

Under the Trump administration, though, it became increasingly common. A test of “zero tolerance” along one sector of the border in summer 2017 led to an unknown number of family separations. Seven hundred families were separated between October 2017 and April 2018.

From May 7 to June 20, separating a family who had entered between ports of entry was the standard practice of the Trump administration. It was the default.

Trump administration officials denied family separation was a “policy” for legalistic reasons, but they affirmed that “zero tolerance” prosecutions were a policy. Until Trump signed an executive order on Wednesday allowing families to be kept together in immigration detention while parents were prosecuted, the administration maintained that separating families was an inevitable outcome of prosecuting parents.

Not every family was separated. But dozens of families a day were. At least 2,300 families were separated over those six or so weeks.

We don’t know how many families were separated under the Obama administration, but there’s no reason to believe that it numbered in the thousands even over the eight years that Obama was president. Because it simply wasn’t standard practice. Under Trump, it was.

Are you clueless or what. During the Obama years illegal alien parents were separated from their children and many children were put in cages. It was not Trump who made the policy nor responsible for this. It was the American immigration system that was behind the separating of parents from children long before Trump arrived on the scene. Get your facts straight before you start spreading your bull chit. Geez, some people kids.  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Please avoid personal attacks and excessive quoting. If your written contribution is smaller than your quote, then you quoted too much. Trim your posts.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

Could you, please, tell me the name of the city and how I can get wellfare? I'm eager to get there. ))))))))))))

(there is no such one)

Toronto is a sanctuary city. They will not ask for proof of citizenship when accessing social services, nor will they inform immigration authorities when discovering someone is illegal.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

I guess you're male teenager. ))))))))))))) You will tell women what to do...

I specifically said there is no need to force people to have babies, that in fact most women WANT to have babies. Many are deterred by economic problems, by being unable to take sufficient work off from their careers, and from lack of child care. These can be addressed.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

lol. So, all those immigrants around me (in banks, bars, offices etc.) were not needed. You need to write about it to Trudeu, he is not aware of it!!!

He probably is aware of it. Government immigration policy in Canada is not related to Canada's needs. It is responsive to the political needs of parties campaigning among ethnic voters.

2 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

I bet your boss is complaining that he can't find good employees, he is also unaware. Tell your boss to stop moaning, Canada has sufficient work force.

About aging population. Could you send me links to those studies you mensioned?

Dire warnings of a widespread Canadian labour crisis and a “lost generation” of young workers have been overblown, according to a market analysis by TD Economics. Deputy chief economist Derek Burleton says demographic and economic shifts may be hitting young workers particularly hard, but he doesn’t believe projections of across-the-board labour shortages and skills gaps.  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/21/skills-gap-canada-labour-shortage_n_4138487.html

A second study in less than a week has concluded that there is no labour shortage in Canada, nor is one expected to arrive in the next few decades. A study published Friday by a University of Lethbridge professor echoes results of a report by the federal government’s Parliamentary Budget Office released Tuesday — both conclude there are more than enough workers on a national basis in Canada to fill available jobs. http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Study+debunks+Canadian+labour+shortage/9674478/story.html

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

That's why I'm here. To get some practise in written English.

Sorry for abusing you ))))))))

Nothing personal, just practise (c) allmost Godfather

Well if you continue people will start putting you on their 'ignore' list, or the moderator will suspend/expel you from the site. Personal insults are not acceptable.

[ZavHoz]

 

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Toronto is a sanctuary city. They will not ask for proof of citizenship when accessing social services, nor will they inform immigration authorities when discovering someone is illegal.

So, where can I get smth for free? Can I get free health treatment? ooops, no, I need a health card.

So, what "social services" I can get for free?

I promise you to keep it secret. lol

[ZavHoz]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

I specifically said there is no need to force people to have babies, that in fact most women WANT to have babies. Many are deterred by economic problems, by being unable to take sufficient work off from their careers, and from lack of child care. These can be addressed.

 

Are you a woman? Did you ask women? I guess you are still child free, no?

Edited July 19, 2018 by ZavHoz

[ZavHoz]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

He probably is aware of it. Government immigration policy in Canada is not related to Canada's needs. It is responsive to the political needs of parties campaigning among ethnic voters.

Dire warnings of a widespread Canadian labour crisis and a “lost generation” of young workers have been overblown, according to a market analysis by TD Economics. Deputy chief economist Derek Burleton says demographic and economic shifts may be hitting young workers particularly hard, but he doesn’t believe projections of across-the-board labour shortages and skills gaps.  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/21/skills-gap-canada-labour-shortage_n_4138487.html

A second study in less than a week has concluded that there is no labour shortage in Canada, nor is one expected to arrive in the next few decades. A study published Friday by a University of Lethbridge professor echoes results of a report by the federal government’s Parliamentary Budget Office released Tuesday — both conclude there are more than enough workers on a national basis in Canada to fill available jobs. http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Study+debunks+Canadian+labour+shortage/9674478/story.html

Nice quotes. I'll read the articles later on and will send you some statistics on the Canada's demographics, but I guess you know the facts yourself. Because the facts are the same everywhere. Population is aging. Pension systems are under enormous pressure, because there are not enough working adults to keep it afloat. So, there are two options:

1) import workers who will pay pensions to elderly people

2) cut down on CPP and OAS

[ZavHoz]

6 hours ago, paxrom said:

They are not the problem and we aren't prosecuting them as illegals when it comes to immigration. It's the people who crosses the border through neighboring countries using human traffickers that's the concern. 

Really? You don't prosecute them?

Just imagine what happens inside of the immigrant's head. Of course, as trump said, shithole countries send worst people to the US. I guess there are some government funded programs to do that, for example, in Mexico. lol Of course, only lazy people who don't want to succede in their lifes run across the border. Good people, who like to work, always stay in their home country. Just imagine that you decided to immigrate to the UK, for example, you need to move your ass, do paperwork, spend money, come to the new country with the bird's rights (deportation for everything), no one like you, it's hard to get job etc. Of course, you are lazy and surely you are criminal.

It was legal immigration. Now imagine the illegal one. Add to those advantages smthing like hiding from everyone, live your whole life in fear. Imagined? So, are those people insane to do this? Or (suddenly) they have reasons to cross the border to face such "awesome" life? Or they do all this to kill someone or rob a bank? lol Are they SO stupid you think?

 

6 hours ago, paxrom said:

Those "rednecks" are working class blue collar workers. They need jobs that trump is bringing back to lift themselves out of poverty. Same for the Latinos. 

So, ask some redneck whether he wants to clean up your shit. I guess that he will spit into your crashed face. Otherwise you would have rednecks working everywhere, cleaning up your shit.

I'm a tax manager with 8 years of experience, worked for KPMG (if it means smth to you). I'm ready to clean up your shit and actually I do that. I do the job that locals don't want to do, they despise it. I will do any job to stay here.

Edited July 19, 2018 by ZavHoz

[Bonam]

20 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

Nice quotes. I'll read the articles later on and will send you some statistics on the Canada's demographics, but I guess you know the facts yourself. Because the facts are the same everywhere. Population is aging. Pension systems are under enormous pressure, because there are not enough working adults to keep it afloat. So, there are two options:

1) import workers who will pay pensions to elderly people

2) cut down on CPP and OAS

1) Only works if the people being "imported" are in the top ~20% of earners, otherwise they barely pay for the services they themselves consume or even just increase overall government costs. But only a tiny fraction of immigrants end up in the top 20%. If the goal is to generate more tax revenue to pay for services for Canadians, then the current immigration system is phenomenally badly designed to achieve that aim and instead achieves the exact opposite. 

2) Yes and yes, this should be done. You can't keep the retirement age the same even as life expectancy continues to increase. People are living on average for decades after retirement, whereas when retirement were first brought in, life expectancy was less than the retirement age! Medical advances will continue to raise life expectancy, likely to 100+ years in the next few decades. Will people soon be spending half their lives retired? It's not sustainable. Retirement age must be indexed to a fixed fraction of life expectancy.

[ZavHoz]

About trump who brings back jobs - it was funny, yeah...)))))))))

[ZavHoz]

2 hours ago, Bonam said:

1) Only works if the people being "imported" are in the top ~20% of earners, otherwise they barely pay for the services they themselves consume or even just increase overall government costs. But only a tiny fraction of immigrants end up in the top 20%. If the goal is to generate more tax revenue to pay for services for Canadians, then the current immigration system is phenomenally badly designed to achieve that aim and instead achieves the exact opposite. 

Another "expert".

A little bit about YOUR pension system. As an immigrant I feel obliged to explain it to you.

Employees and employers contribute allmost 10% to CPP from your earnings up to the threshold.

Then CPP pays retirement pension to the current recipients from these money, that YOU contributed.

So, far CPP does not require inflow of money from outside. Though in such countries like, for example, UK, government has to add money to the pension fund, because inflow of contributions is less than outflow of pensions. The same fate awaits the CPP. Sorry, it's science called demographics.

There is nothing to discuss about OAS, because it is paid directly from the taxes.

For not very smart people, I repeat. If you earn more than $3500 ANNUALY you have to pay contributions to CPP, therefore you send money to retired "Canadians" who think you are parasite. lol

Edited July 19, 2018 by ZavHoz

[ZavHoz]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Well if you continue people will start putting you on their 'ignore' list, or the moderator will suspend/expel you from the site. Personal insults are not acceptable.

Please, don't take it to heart, I'm just trying to improve my English writing. Sorry.