Iran needs some democracy

[CITIZEN_2015]

47 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

All while Trump begs the Saudis (the real backers of ISIS) to produce more oil.

The second part is debatable but Well yes to first part nothing wrong with that. If the 2 million barrel oil is not replaced by anyone then oil will easily surpass $100 mark and we all pay for it. And they are not begging they are asking. Saudi Arabia wants a regime change in Iran more than US or as much so they have to do their part.

Edited July 2, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

48 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Actually Iran has been helping Iraq as much as they can. A stable neighbor means more stability for Iran.

 

They have been meddling all the time and soon after invasion they did send a lot of arms and mercenaries to kill American soldiers and destabilize Iraq.

[GostHacked]

14 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They have been meddling all the time and soon after invasion they did send a lot of arms and mercenaries to kill American soldiers and destabilize Iraq.

That sounds like a load of propaganda to me. I've already shown you that the opposite is happening.

[kactus]

Good grief....

The stuff about Trump and Saudi Aramco corporation is text book....Trump as a president pledged to make America “great again”. You remember all those stuff about America first? Ofcourse honouring these pledges comes at a price. Signing those billion dollar contracts to sell atms to saudis is just s mean to deliver on those promises. It’s Economics stupid (it’s just a phrase and not addressed to anyone)

Getting back to the topic....I cannot even fathom the prospect of giving MEK (that btw was listed as a terrorist organisation by CIA a few years ago) a chance to become a political force. That’s whether through transition or change of government in Iran. They are notorious, hypocrites and at worst traitors to the Iranians.

This old cliche that just because you don’t approve of MEK policy then you must be a regime supporter is growing tiresome and just shutting different opinions....I think I have made my views chrystal clear here that I strongly oppose the Ayatollahs and their existence. But to even suggest that just because there’s no alternative Iranians should embrace MEK to topple the current occupying regime is preposterous and suicidal at worst case scenario!!! There is no chance in hell they will be accounted for as a credible force to replace these god damn mullahs. Through change must be initiated by Iranians as they have shown with their regional protests. You cannot export democracy to another country unless the motive is to create anarchy, instability and division in that country. Any interferance by means of military action against another soverign state will be perceived as an attack against their people. Providing the means to weaken the regime and the system from inside and out is the best solution to get closer to establishing democracy in Iran given the absence of a credible opposition IMHO.

[CITIZEN_2015]

25 minutes ago, kactus said:

Getting back to the topic....I cannot even fathom the prospect of giving MEK (that btw was listed as a terrorist organisation by CIA a few years ago) a chance to become a political force. That’s whether through transition or change of government in Iran. They are notorious, hypocrites and at worst traitors to the Iranians.

The mullahs are the worst traitors. They destroyed the entire country, caused over a million deaths many by executions, took back the country 1400 years, forced medieval laws and still fully enforce them,  represented evil and exported terrorism to the entire middle east. Isolated Iran and caused damage more than any enemy could. MEK is likely the second worst traitors. But you fell short of offering an alternative. Do you see any chance of monarchy returing? and if so how? Shouting Reza Shah God bless his soul and other slogans will not bring them back. To remove mullahs who has armed themselves to teeth a military force or liberation army as MEK said it is needed. Please PROPOSE A PRACTICAL SOLUTION.

25 minutes ago, kactus said:

Providing the means to weaken the regime and the system from inside and out is the best solution to get closer to establishing democracy in Iran given the absence of a credible opposition IMHO.

Details please. Are you suggesting that mullahs remain in power for years more until the entire country in brought down to its knees and economy is destroyed and street clashes continue all over Iran and people get shot and killed or jailed and tortured to death and currency continues to fall and civil war breaks out and disintegration occur at the end OR are you hoping that in many years after totally destroying the country assuming Iran will survive civil war and disintegration hopefully the apes will eventually evolve into humans and start reforming? The latter would never happen and we have 40 years of that to prove. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[kactus]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The mullahs are the worst traitors. They destroyed the entire country, caused over a million deaths many by executions, took back the country 1400 years, represented evil and exported terrorism to the entire middle east. Isolated Iran and caused damage more than any enemy could. MEK is likely the second worst traitors. But you fell short of offering an alternative. Do you see any chance of monarchy returing? and if so how? Shouting Reza Shah God bless his soul and other slogans will not bring them back. To remove mullahs who has armed themselves to teeth a military force or liberation army as MEK said it is needed. Please PROPOSE A SOLUTION.

History has shown time and time again that democracy cannot be spoon fed...It has to be realised!

Europe went through this transition. Same applies for other countries including Iran.

Look...we can sit behind keyboards and become very academic about this topic. Reality is forcing a change that people don’t want will backfire...I see that through every god damn country the West has interefered....Sure there are examples such as Iraq that one can dispute Iran’s meddling but how about Libya? Is that country prospering now? Really!? If we keep carrying on along this path then nothing will change and probably similar predicament awaits Iran. Something probably many Iranians don’t want to happen to them or their loved ones if there was a full force military attack. Notice I am not suggesting that’s what you say but it is a probability.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

History has shown time and time again that democracy cannot be spoon fed...It has to be realised!

Europe went through this transition. Same applies for other countries including Iran.

Look...we can sit behind keyboards and become very academic about this topic. Reality is forcing a change that people don’t want will backfire...I see that through every god damn country the West has interefered....Sure there are examples such as Iraq that one can dispute Iran’s meddling but how about Libya? Is that country prospering now? Really!? If we keep carrying on along this path then nothing will change and probably similar predicament awaits Iran. Something probably many Iranians don’t want to happen to them or their loved ones if there was a full force military attack. Notice I am not suggesting that’s what you say but it is a probability.

Forcing a change that people don't want!!!!!! Iran nation does not want a regime change?

Iran society is ready for democracy now. Iran has decades of political history, political parties, political oppositions and has been through two revolutions already (the constitutioanl revolution and the islamic revolution slolen by mullahs). Iran is not Iraq or Lybia. It has a very advanced westernised population and then again I am preaching to a converter!!.  Btw, in Libya civil war had already started (armed opposition to Ghadafi) before the west interferred. The alternative to military invasion or civil war is MEK. I wished that Reza Pahlavi had a chance but I regretfully  don't see how.  And if you think Iranians can overthrow such a brutal regime with millions of paid thugs WITHOUT outside support then you live in a fantasy world.

I don't want military invasion and as I said I don't see this as a probability as the US does not have the power or will to carry out such action so that is out but I can foresee a civil war as a real probability if this regime stays in power and I hate civil war a lot more. It is very destructive A civilian with fire gun was seen yesterday in Khoramshahr. The Kurds are arming themselves and so are others. Civil war and disintegration is a real possibility now IF the regime remains in power. Ideally the nation should vote for what they want. It is NOT up to us to decide for the nation of Iran that MEK is not a good alternative for them.

The Nation is fed up and seeks every possible alternative. Easy for outsider to wait and see. Easy to see others burn in fire and ask them to be patient until fire fighters arrive. I see THIS regime reforming into a democracy happens when pigs start flying or hell freeze over many times and that is when mullahs evolve into humans..

Edited July 2, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

Factories explode and six workers killed because of sanctions resulted from regime policies

http://www.startribune.com/toxic-gas-leak-fire-kill-5-workers-near-iranian-capital/487135461/

Fires and similar incidents occur occasionally in Iran's aging oil-related facilities and other plants that were hit hard by years of Western sanctions.

Very sad that ordinary people pay the price.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Iran regime threatens the world.

The collapsing islamic regime is trying to start a war to survive a bit longer. The powerless Iran president in Europe (while meeting prostitute government officials who wish to continue trade with iran regime in spite of its terrorist actvities and gross human right violations) threatened the world. He said if Iran cannot export its oil then nobody in the region can!!!!.

Many analysts interpret this as closing of the vital strait of Hormuz where 40% of world oil is passing. Those mercenary navy guards must refuse to obey such orders which is simply for regime survival not for the good of Iran or else. The else would be that the US navy will blast them out of Persian Gulf and strait of Hormuz all the way to Caspian sea 1000 miles away. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

I see Mr. Harper is getting involved:

https://nationalpost.com/news/stephen-harper-criticized-for-speaking-at-anti-iran-event-hosted-by-cult-former-terrorist-group

Many years ago, I worked with a person who said he was a member of the Rajavi family. He was an ER physician at the time. Disappointed by the low level of violent injuries he was seeing, he soon left us. 

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

MEK is used as a tool by US to exert pressure on Iran regime for negotiation. They have no support in Iran or real chances to replace Iran regime.

Edited July 3, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[GostHacked]

20 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

MEK is used as a tool by US to exert pressure on Iran regime for negotiation. They have no support in Iran or real chances to replace Iran regime.

Looks like you are proving my past posts as correct. The US IS actively pursuing regime change in Iran. You gave me a blast for mentioning it, now here you are saying the same thing.

[CITIZEN_2015]

7 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Looks like you are proving my past posts as correct. The US IS actively pursuing regime change in Iran. You gave me a blast for mentioning it, now here you are saying the same thing.

In my vocabulary pressuring the regime to come to negotiating table is the regime behaviour change not regime change.

I am not denying that the US want to see a regime change but indicating that hundreds of thousands of Iranians,  women included risking their lives confronting the regime thugs on Iranian streets are instructed by the US or paid by US and Israel is a complete BS as Iran regime claims. 

[marcus]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

MEK is used as a tool by US to exert pressure on Iran regime for negotiation.

You sound like an Iranian regime operative.

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 minutes ago, marcus said:

You sound like an Iranian regime operative.

Yes it is called operation regime change.

[GostHacked]

2 hours ago, marcus said:

You sound like an Iranian regime operative.

I've been called worse, and by better people. It's no joke really.  The USA wants regime change in Iran and they've been pushing for it for a long time. It benefits Saudi Arabia more than it does the USA though.

[marcus]

36 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

I've been called worse, and by better people. It's no joke really.  The USA wants regime change in Iran and they've been pushing for it for a long time. It benefits Saudi Arabia more than it does the USA though.

I was being sarcastic and it was a response to CITIZEN_2015 and not you. Earlier in the thread, I brought up U.S./Saudi/Israeli role and CITIZEN_2015 called me an Iranian regime operative/mouthpiece. Now he is finally coming around and, to a degree, admitting the importance of taking foreign meddling, especially countries with a history of it into consideration. He is still trying to brush it aside and cover for their past actions, but it is progress.

 

 

[kactus]

8 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I see Mr. Harper is getting involved:

https://nationalpost.com/news/stephen-harper-criticized-for-speaking-at-anti-iran-event-hosted-by-cult-former-terrorist-group

Many years ago, I worked with a person who said he was a member of the Rajavi family. He was an ER physician at the time. Disappointed by the low level of violent injuries he was seeing, he soon left us. 

 

The extent of support/ endorsement of Harper or any other western government of this notorious cult is not a coincidence/ lack of knowledge or by them showing naivety. They know exactly what MEK are capable of. 

It transpires that in the absence of a credible opposition to Ayatollahs people/ governments tend to chose bad over worse. That is MEK over Ayatollahs! 

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 hours ago, GostHacked said:

I've been called worse, and by better people. It's no joke really.  The USA wants regime change in Iran and they've been pushing for it for a long time. It benefits Saudi Arabia more than it does the USA though.

Wrong. It benefits most the Iranian people who end the occupation of their country by a bunch of thugs and terrorists. But it also benefits THE WHOLE WORLD, that includes also Saudi Arabia and USA.

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, kactus said:

It transpires that in the absence of a credible opposition to Ayatollahs people/ governments tend to chose bad over worse. That is MEK over Ayatollahs! 

Iranian people are forced to choose between bad over worse for decades now. Sometimes one has to do this when there is no other alternative. So nothing new. remember when regime disqualified thousands and let only few regime stooges to remain in presidential elections? The poor people had to choose between one with white turban over the other with black turban and same in all previous so called fraud undemocratic elections. The regime even don't allow a powerless president of their own choosing to be elected and sometimes they even fix that. Like 2009 when massive protests was put down forcefully and many got killed and jailed and raped and disappeared.

Yes I reluctantly choose MEK over the mullahs, regime which has already destroyed Iran and caused a million deaths and will completely destroy Iran and kill millions more if they stay in power. Every day in power, the probability of civil war and disintegration become more and more and economy will collapse further and poverty deeper and becomes more widespread. I want this end by any means but I asked you and marcus again if you have a better PRACTICAL solution the PLEASE PROPOSE. I am all ears.

[GostHacked]

6 hours ago, marcus said:

I was being sarcastic and it was a response to CITIZEN_2015 and not you. Earlier in the thread, I brought up U.S./Saudi/Israeli role and CITIZEN_2015 called me an Iranian regime operative/mouthpiece. Now he is finally coming around and, to a degree, admitting the importance of taking foreign meddling, especially countries with a history of it into consideration. He is still trying to brush it aside and cover for their past actions, but it is progress.

 

 

Ah that makes sense to me now.  Yer right Marcus!

[GostHacked]

18 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Wrong. It benefits most the Iranian people who end the occupation of their country by a bunch of thugs and terrorists. But it also benefits THE WHOLE WORLD, that includes also Saudi Arabia and USA.

To be taken over by more brutal thugs? Have you not learned the lesson since the invasion of Iraq (for the second time) close to 20 years ago?  How's Afghanistan these days? Libya? Syria?  Do I need to go on? You remove the brutal dictatorship and you are most likely to end up with something worse, because the transition plan was terrible or non-existent.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes I reluctantly choose MEK over the mullahs, regime which has already destroyed Iran and caused a million deaths and will completely destroy Iran and kill millions more if they stay in power. Every day in power, the probability of civil war and disintegration become more and more and economy will collapse further and poverty deeper and becomes more widespread. I want this end by any means but I asked you and marcus again if you have a better PRACTICAL solution the PLEASE PROPOSE. I am all ears.

Would MEK be acceptable to most Iranians and create a democratic state? 

[kactus]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

 I asked you and marcus again if you have a better PRACTICAL solution the PLEASE PROPOSE. I am all ears.

I have already given the answer but somehow got ignored through selective hearing. Sorry citizen!

Edited July 4, 2018 by kactus

[kactus]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Would MEK be acceptable to most Iranians and create a democratic state? 

Since you addressed this question to citizen, which I am hoping he will answer let me ask you the same question what do you think?

I give you my philosophical answer which may not bode well with some members here as it may be misconstrued with insulting their intelligence...

If Iranians tomorrow chose MEK over the Ayatollahs it would mean they have not learned from their past mistakes and will kerp reoeating it. Remember these Ayatollahs were pledging to improve the lives of citizens after the revolution. We saw the opposite effect. My point of contention is and I keep repeating this that if you keep on repeating the same mistake over and over then one cannot expect a different result. And if you did that would be a sign of insanity!

Citizen is right on one thing...Mullahs cannot be reformed but neither is right for Iranians to chose a notorious cult like MEK if they want to make a change for better IMO.

Edited July 4, 2018 by kactus