bush_cheney2004 Posted December 16, 2017 Report Posted December 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: So what should US policy be on Ukraine? Pro-Russian? Neutral? US policy should be whatever favours U.S. interests / foreign policy objectives, same as Israel. Europe should be leading more on this, not the US. 1 Economics trumps Virtue.
SpankyMcFarland Posted December 16, 2017 Report Posted December 16, 2017 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: US policy should be whatever favours U.S. interests / foreign policy objectives, same as Israel. Europe should be leading more on this, not the US. What should it be exactly? Pro-Putin?
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 16, 2017 Report Posted December 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: What should it be exactly? Pro-Putin? It should be exactly pro American interests, depending on the circumstance / issue. Nothing special about Ukraine. ...back to Jerusalem ? 1 Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 18 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: The 1.1 state solution leaves enclaves whose inhabitants will never have a vote in elections that determine their lives. Israel will get what it wants but generally does not admit it wants - land with little or no Arabs to deal with. Can you think of one logical reason they would NOT want that? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 40 minutes ago, Argus said: Can you think of one logical reason they would NOT want that? So along with Rue, you don't support a two state solution then? A simple yes or no will do.
Bonam Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 3 hours ago, GostHacked said: So along with Rue, you don't support a two state solution then? A simple yes or no will do. Most reasonable people support a two state solution. The real question is exactly what land a future Palestinian state would exist on. Personally, I think that besides Gaza and the West Bank, some additional territory should be contributed to any such future state from Egypt, Jordan, and maybe even a bit from Lebanon and Syria. All of these states are the homelands of what are now considered the Palestinian people, and yet they find themselves barred from citizenship and confined to refugee camps in those states, and often treated worse by those states than they are by Israel. Besides that, even if the Palestinians got as much of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as they could possibly hope to get, it's still not enough to form a viable state, more territory is needed. 1
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 4 hours ago, GostHacked said: So along with Rue, you don't support a two state solution then? A simple yes or no will do. Don't misquote me. I have many times stated I support a two state solution. Your technique of coming on this board to deliberately misquote to bait is childish. Knock it off.
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 On 2017-12-16 at 9:11 AM, Michael Hardner said: Forgive me for not knowing your view on this. Even if one concurs with the level of significance of the event, of moving the capital and being recognized, do you think that the even is useful to the cause of (eventual) peace ? I don't, if only because one side is inflamed by it. It reinforces the conditions that hold up the status quo, and that's by mutual design it seems. If the two sides could cooperate as much to move forward as they do to maintain the situation this would be over quickly. I made myself clear earlier. Basing decisions on fearing the anger or tantrums of others is illogical. You may have been brought up to avoid confrontation and appease people who have tantrums and engage in terror and violence, but I and others have not.
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 On 2017-12-16 at 9:11 AM, Michael Hardner said: If the two sides could cooperate as much to move forward as they do to maintain the situation this would be over quickly. This is an empty and obvious statement.
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 On 2017-12-14 at 10:41 PM, Omni said: and if my understanding of the word is at all accurate then negotiation requires at least more than one side. You don't have an understanding of the world. You have a subjective bias against Israel that you express on this forum. You don't speak for the world or understand it. Its a delusion. You project your subjective opinion as being the world's opinion. The fact that you even attempt to claim you understand the world is idiotic to the extreme but then I don't doubt you think quite highly of yourself. 1
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rue said: You may have been brought up to avoid confrontation and appease people who have tantrums and engage in terror and violence, but I and others have not. But 'avoiding' confrontation in life isn't analogous to being a superpower who is ostensibly trying to arbitrate a regional conflict. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rue said: This is an empty and obvious statement. Really ? I don't hear people say very much about the effort to keep things the way they are. I think those efforts happen more behind the scenes. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 On 2017-12-16 at 10:57 AM, Michael Hardner said: " My approach is to listen to all sides, and absorb the comments that offer new insights. Talk about empty and meaningless statements. What bullshit. Get out of your bubble. No one in Fatah or Hamas or Islamic Jihad or Al Qaeda, Daesh, PFLP, ona nd on are going to talk to you let alone provide you any "side". Would you stop posing as some great white saviour who can mediate the savages. Get over your superiority complex.
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Really ? I don't hear people say very much about the effort to keep things the way they are. I think those efforts happen more behind the scenes. Whatever that means MH you've been engaging in platitudes. Read them back. You are just another deluded missionary thinking you understand and can bring your superior way of thinking and values to what you think are savages fighting. Your just a dime a dozen white boy colonialist assuming a tone of patronizing assumptions. Anyone can come on this forum like you and pontificate the hollow sanctimony you do. Thanks but you sound like some inspid missionary complete with the tone of holier then thou pronouncements. The only reason anything might come about in the Middle East is because people will have run out of people to kill. You don't get that because its no different then what goes on in your own back yard, the one you pretend does not exist. Look in your own back yard Mr. Holier then thou who thinks he can sit with Hamas and develop insights. Just how many walls and solitudes are in your own backyard? The people you think you will understand and develop insight from are already dead. The only thing they have to offer you is a reflection of your own delusional state of superiority and fear of death.
Rue Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: But 'avoiding' confrontation in life isn't analogous to being a superpower who is ostensibly trying to arbitrate a regional conflict. You mean mediate. No sovereign can arbitrate, i.e., impose a legal decision on another sovereign nation. You might want to start with a basic fundamental understanding of the limitations of international law. International law is not contrary to what you may think constituted by certain countries ganging up on another and demanding it do things. Next, appeasement of terrorism does not avoid terrorism or even defuse it , it fuels it. The last thing you do with terrorists is to cower from them. No they don't turn rational and sit at a table with you. This is your delusional state that the boogy man will turn nice if you smile at him. Do yourself a favour, remain in Mama's basement. I've seen plenty of your kind. They walk into neighbourhoods and say "yoh man what's up". They can't possibly understand why they were stabbed. Good God man you might want to start by removing that golf ware. That Arnold Palmer look don't work in Jerusalem.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 Israel can already see the end game...Arabs are fighting more with themselves and Persians than with Israelis. Enemy Syria has self destructed (much deserved by the way after years of abusing Lebanon). ...and the hapless Palestinian leadership continues to do what it has always done...fail. Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bonam said: Most reasonable people support a two state solution Do you think the current Israeli government does? Has any Israeli government, besides maybe Barak and Rabin, truly supported a two-state solution and took steps to show this? One look at the settlement population increase and it's hard to see how any Israeli government, besides the usual lip service to keep the status quo going, which is more land theft, wants to allow Palestinians their own state. Edited December 18, 2017 by marcus 1 "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Bonam Posted December 17, 2017 Report Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, marcus said: Do you think the current Israeli government does? Has any Israeli government, besides maybe Barak and Rabin, truly supported a two-state solution and took steps to show this? Multiple sets of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians over the last several decades have resulted in Israel offering the Palestinians to have their own state on the vast majority of Gaza and the West Bank and parts of East Jerusalem on multiple occasions. In each case, the Palestinians refused, in some cases following up this refusal with waves of violence and terrorism. I suspect the current Israeli government may be less driven than some previous ones to find a negotiated settlement, but it is hard to blame them given that so many iterations of peace talks have been fruitless. At this point, it's up to the Palestinian leadership to prove to Israel that it is interested in peace and a negotiated settlement and come to the table with a reasonable proposal. Edited December 17, 2017 by Bonam
Argus Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, GostHacked said: So along with Rue, you don't support a two state solution then? A simple yes or no will do. No. Never have. I don't think a separate Palestinian state is viable or necessary. The West Bank should go to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt. There is no ethnic, cultural, religious, racial, linguistic or other reason for a separate Palestinian state. Edited December 18, 2017 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Bonam said: Most reasonable people support a two state solution. Why? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Rue said: Talk about empty and meaningless statements. What bullshit. Get out of your bubble. No one in Fatah or Hamas or Islamic Jihad or Al Qaeda, Daesh, PFLP, ona nd on are going to talk to you let alone provide you any "side". Would you stop posing as some great white saviour who can mediate the savages. Get over your superiority complex. Well, if there is absolutely nothing to be done with them - do you advocate bombing and annexing them ? I am not stating I'm superior, I am just stating how I approach complex problems in faraway places. Would you prefer I be like others on here and take a hard stance on one side or the other ? I find that approach inappropriate. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rue said: You are just another deluded missionary.... Sorry, I'm going to cut you off there. I didn't say I'm telling people what to do, I said I'm listening. 3 hours ago, Rue said: Anyone can come on this forum like you and pontificate the hollow sanctimony you do. Thanks but you sound like some inspid missionary complete with the tone of holier then thou pronouncements. I didn't pontificate. That's all stuff you made up in your head. I don't know why you did that. 3 hours ago, Rue said: The only reason anything might come about in the Middle East is because people will have run out of people to kill. You don't get that because its no different then what goes on in your own back yard, the one you pretend does not exist. Now then. Would you like me to listen to your opinion ? Because that's what I said I would do... listen. But you are mocking me for saying I'm listening, so what should I do with what you're telling me? 3 hours ago, Rue said: Look in your own back yard Mr. Holier then thou who thinks he can sit with Hamas and develop insights. Just how many walls and solitudes are in your own backyard? My backyard isn't much different from yours, except maybe in scale and amount of attention it gets. I don't know why you're bringing it up. 3 hours ago, Rue said: The people you think you will understand and develop insight from are already dead. The only thing they have to offer you is a reflection of your own delusional state of superiority and fear of death. You're going off the deep end for some reason. 2 hours ago, Rue said: 1) You mean mediate. 2) You might want to start with a basic fundamental understanding of the limitations of international law. International law is not contrary to what you may think constituted by certain countries ganging up on another and demanding it do things. 1) Yes. 2) You are arguing legality which has nothing to do with my line of questions. Not sure what happened here, but once in awhile your posts become irrational and you go off in a sideways direction. Maybe it's some bad bets (don't ever bet on the Buffalo Bills) or just somebody who figuratively went "wet" on your Wheaties. If you want to engage with me in a civil way let me know. Edited December 18, 2017 by Michael Hardner took out superfluous info Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: ....My backyard isn't much different from yours, except maybe in scale and amount of attention it gets. I don't know why you're bringing it up. Maybe he is bringing it up for a very good reason....for scale and amount (maybe ask the "aboriginals"). Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Maybe he is bringing it up for a very good reason....for scale and amount (maybe ask the "aboriginals"). It would be if I were moralizing or imposing my framework on another country and another culture. Instead I am listening to people. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 18, 2017 Report Posted December 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: It would be if I were moralizing or imposing my framework on another country and another culture. Instead I am listening to people. And yet, you do not hear those who advocate for keeping things the way they are, you know, the ones with actual skin in the game. Is "listening" only working for viewpoints that are as compliant and peaceful as yours ? Economics trumps Virtue.
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