An opinion poll on Public versus Private health care system in Canada.

[CITIZEN_2015]

There is an ongoing discussion in another thread already but this is a poll.

I believe our Public health care system in Canada is sick and needs reform. What is needed is to allow private clinics, private hospitals and private doctors and nurses making house calls. Our health care system is the worst. Something has to be done as our population is aging. In my view a move towards privatization is the solution. Lets those who can afford it to pay. After all we always pay (more) for everything which is better. Why on earth should health should be different. Should we also ban the well off from buying healthier and more expensive food? So why ban private health care? It is stupid in my view. Who is the honest politician with the balls who will do what is right rather than what is politically right? Privatize the sick health care system in Canada to make it healthy.

Let"s hear from you citizens. SEND A MESSAGE TO THE OUR POLITICIANS by your votes. This Citizen voted for the Mixed health care system in Canada.

Edited December 1, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[cannuck]

The #1 issue is realizing that sick care is a social service , NOT A BUSINESS, at least not in the conventional sense.

Other than the US, every other G7 nation has figured out how to integrate public insurance with a blend of public and private service delivery.

While government is singlularly bad at doing almost anything, IMHO it SHOULD be providing 100% funding for a full range of sick care and health care programmes, but not in any way interfering with a private citizen's right to choose to do whatever they wish in using public or personally funded service delivery.  Confining its monopoly to funding removes them from the role of conflict of interest in administering public funds and public interest in the quality and quantity of service delivered.

Now, since the infrastructure is there, no reason for the public sector to discontinue providing the services it does now, just needs to become accountable for the lack of productivity and organization.  Best done by allowing the private sector to step up to offer the same services at the same rates and service levels dictated by the insurer (gov't) as well as whatever they wish above and beyond.

Where the "not business" side should come in is providing actual health care. Part of that is weaning us off of the notion that medicine is all about drugs, and that drugs are the ultimate solution to just about anything.   That, and getting the damned lawyers and insurance companies to hell out of medicine.  THAT is a significant part of US costs, and we have become so liberal and mindless that we are building our economy in the image of the yanks.

[?Impact]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Other than the US, every other G7 nation has figured out how to integrate public insurance with a blend of public and private service delivery.

While government is singlularly bad at doing almost anything, IMHO it SHOULD be providing 100% funding for a full range of sick care and health care programmes,

You do realize that much (most?) of the health care service delivery in Canada is already through private enterprise.

Most other countries in the world provide dental care as part of their health care delivery, but in Canada we only do that for a few groups.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

...Other than the US, every other G7 nation has figured out how to integrate public insurance with a blend of public and private service delivery.

 

 

Patently false....the U.S. has a 60/40 private/public health insurance system along with public and private (non-profit & profit) care providers for hospitals, clinics, mental health facilities, veterans hospitals, etc.   The U.S. federal medicare system and state medicaid programs are partnered with private insurance and care providers.

http://www.aha.org/research/rc/stat-studies/fast-facts.shtml

The U.S. public/private health care system delivers care on a scale that is an order of magnitude greater than in Canada, but still has excess capacity.

Edited December 1, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Omni]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Patently false....the U.S. has a 60/40 private/public health insurance system along with public and private (non-profit & profit) care providers for hospitals, clinics, mental health facilities, veterans hospitals, etc.   The U.S. federal medicare system and state medicaid programs are partnered with private insurance and care providers.

http://www.aha.org/research/rc/stat-studies/fast-facts.shtml

The U.S. public/private health care system delivers care on a scale that is an order of magnitude greater than in Canada, but still has excess capacity.

Why then are you ranked so far behind Canada by the WHO?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

Why then are you ranked so far behind Canada by the WHO?

 

Because many Canadians value patriotically waiting a long time for even the simplest of procedures and tests...for the collective.

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because many Canadians value patriotically waiting a long time for even the simplest of procedures and tests...for the collective.

And they value not losing their house paying for those procedures and tests.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

And they value not losing their house paying for those procedures and tests.

 

Nobody loses their house for a garden variety MRI or CAT scan....my cat can get faster scans and tests than people in Canada.

[Omni]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nobody loses their house for a garden variety MRI or CAT scan....my cat can get faster scans and tests than people in Canada.

They do lose their house if they actually get sick and need ongoing treatment. Makes sense in one way I guess, who needs a house if you're really sick anyway. That's the American way huh.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

They do lose their house if they actually get sick and need ongoing treatment. Makes sense in one way I guess, who needs a house if you're really sick anyway. That's the American way huh.

 

Sure is....Canadian provinces use the excess capacity available in the U.S. all the time.

[Omni]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure is....Canadian provinces use the excess capacity available in the U.S. all the time.

And the social health care system pays. No need to put a lien on the house.

[dre]

The whole public vs private aspect of the healthcare debate is really besides the point. You could have a good system using either or both.

The real problems with our medical system....

1. Conflict of interest / Protectionism
Trade unions masquerading as associates, not only negotiate doctors salaries with each province, but they control much of the certification/standards regime. This is a blatant conflict of interest, and these organizations  have an intrinsic interest in create artificial scarcity because it improves their negotiating position with the provinces. We have a chronic shortage a family doctors even though there are hundreds/thousands of doctors that have passed our medical exams. They are simply prevented from practicing.

3. Our proximity to the US
We are a tiny market next to a large market, that has a system specifically designed to price-gouge patients to enrich investors and doctors. This drives up costs.

3. Trade Policy / Globalism
This is probably the biggest one. Most workers face competition in some way from foreigners in developing markets. Their wages are pretty much stagnant. People like doctors and teachers though face much less competition due not only to successful and organized attempts to protect themselves from competition, but from logistics as well. The result is that the people facing competition, are having a harder and harder time buying services from the people that don't. Medical services, and education are increasing in cost from 5 to 10% annually because of this.

Juggling around who the "payer" is (public or private) will do nothing to fix any of this. Costs in markets that use both methods are escalating. Everywhere.

Wanna fix it? Flood the market with doctors. Theres 10's of thousands of good doctors around the world that would love to practice in Canada for 100k. Identify them, and fast track accreditation, and certification. Force our doctors to compete with them.

Castrate the medical associations, and make it so the organizations that negotiate wages and salaries, are totally separate from the ones that control standards and certification.

Fund more residency slots so that all the doctors that ARE here working.

 

[?Impact]

18 minutes ago, dre said:

1. Conflict of interest / Protectionism

 

Trade unions masquerading as associates, not only negotiate doctors salaries with each province, but they control much of the certification/standards regime. This is a blatant conflict of interest, and these organizations  have an intrinsic interest in create artificial scarcity because it improves their negotiating position with the provinces. We have a chronic shortage a family doctors even though there are hundreds/thousands of doctors that have passed our medical exams. They are simply prevented from practicing.

I thought anyone that graduated from a Canadian or American medical school almost automatically got a residency. I know there is a problem with other foreign medical school graduates, but that is because they didn't pass our medical exams (including language exams). Now limits on places in a Canadian medical school is a different issue.

[bush_cheney2004]

35 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I thought anyone that graduated from a Canadian or American medical school almost automatically got a residency.d

 

No way...graduates of Canadian schools get preference:

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Opinion+Canada+shuts+door+Canadian+doctors+foreign+medical+schools/9714934/story.html

[?Impact]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No way...graduates of Canadian schools get preference:

I thought that was essentially what I said. You are aware this is a reciprocal agreement between the Canadian Residency Matching Service (CaRMS) and the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP) in the US, which is specifically why I mentioned the US & Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I thought that was essentially what I said. You are aware this is a reciprocal agreement between the Canadian Residency Matching Service (CaRMS) and the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP) in the US, which is specifically why I mentioned the US & Canada.

 

My understanding that medical residency in Canada still requires Canadian citizenship or permanent residency.   A U.S. medical school graduate who writes for the Canadian exams cannot just assume reciprocal opportunity for a position in Canada. 

[?Impact]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

My understanding that medical residency in Canada still requires Canadian citizenship or permanent residency.   A U.S. medical school graduate who writes for the Canadian exams cannot just assume reciprocal opportunity for a position in Canada. 

Yes, some form of citizenship/residency/work visa would be required in either country, but I doubt that would be very difficult to obtain, especially for citizens of Canada or the US.

 

* I think we are starting to drift from the topic quite a bit here.

Edited December 1, 2017 by ?Impact

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Patently false....the U.S. has a 60/40 private/public health insurance system along with public and private (non-profit & profit) care providers for hospitals, clinics, mental health facilities, veterans hospitals, etc.   The U.S. federal medicare system and state medicaid programs are partnered with private insurance and care providers.

http://www.aha.org/research/rc/stat-studies/fast-facts.shtml

The U.S. public/private health care system delivers care on a scale that is an order of magnitude greater than in Canada, but still has excess capacity.

You are very correct in that there is a substantial public sector sick care component to US medicine, but it is the 60% who are on their own to deal with the private  insurers (or lack of any insurance) who can be in deep doo doo.  One of our key employees has a wife (who is a RN) that has an existing condition that will absolutely preclude her beging able to get coverage from business insurers.  Over the last few years, she has been diagnosed (incorrectly) with literally dozens of conditions, and often treated for them - we believe at considerable cost to her health and life. We keep an otherwise unsustainable business going simply because he can not affford to lose our to tier medical benefit parkage.  Even with that, actual sick care is hardly what you would call top drawer unless you are in one of the few exceptionally good (i.e. world class) facilities that ARE scatterd around the US. 

It is easy to go from the Uniparty talking notes about sick care in the US, but you will have a very different opinion when you have to deal with it where people's lifelihood and lives are at stake.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

...It is easy to go from the Uniparty talking notes about sick care in the US, but you will have a very different opinion when you have to deal with it where people's lifelihood and lives are at stake.

 

Nope...my opinion would not change, based on real experience in the U.S., not second hand anecdotal stories.

The United States' health care system is a blend of public and private payers and providers at the county, state, and federal levels. The "60 %" receive significant tax benefits from employer paid health/dental insurance, and health care expenses are tax deductible above a percentage of AGI thresholds.

People's lives have a price in the U.S. and in Canada whether you like it or not.  

Quote

Canadian Supreme Court: "Access to a Waiting List is NOT Access to Health Care"

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Omni]

56 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...my opinion would not change, based on real experience in the U.S., not second hand anecdotal stories.

The United States' health care system is a blend of public and private payers and providers at the county, state, and federal levels. The "60 %" receive significant tax benefits from employer paid health/dental insurance, and health care expenses are tax deductible above a percentage of AGI thresholds.

People's lives have a price in the U.S. and in Canada whether you like it or not.  

 

People in Canada for the most part don't have to worry about including their medical costs in their tax returns because they don't have to worry about paying in the first place. See how that sorks?

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Omni said:

People in Canada for the most part don't have to worry about including their medical costs in their tax returns because they don't have to worry about paying in the first place. See how that sorks?

 

Yes...waiting months for an MRI.....it does sorks. 

Pointing at the U.S. may work as a deflection for the collectivists, but it will not solve Canada's obvious health care system deficiencies.

Edited December 2, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Omni]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes...waiting months for an MRI.....it does sorks. 

Pointing at the U.S. may work as a deflection for the collectivists, but it will not solve Canada's obvious health care system deficiencies.

We are number 30 in the world, you are number 37. Get back to us when you have something to brag about.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

We are number 30 in the world, you are number 37. Get back to us when you have something to brag about.

 

More deflection...as always.   I guess you have to do something while waiting...waiting...waiting.  Sorks.

[Omni]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

More deflection...as always.   I guess you have to do something while waiting...waiting...waiting.  Sorks.

I guess when you don't like the facts presented to you you like to try calling them "deflection". Doesn't work my friend.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Omni said:

I guess when you don't like the facts presented to you you like to try calling them "deflection". Doesn't work my friend.

 

The tired dog whistle playbook of always pointing at the U.S. does nothing to improve Canada's failing health care system.

...it sorks.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by bush_cheney2004