What is required to create a new province/territory?

[The New Movement]

I've been thinking about creating a province or territory that governs itself and would not be subject to federal law. It would pay some federal taxes for shared things like the military.

The purpose would be to accommodate people with alternative world views. For example, within this new province, we could have separate towns for different types of anarchists (anarcho-communist, etc), religious fundamentalists (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc), and just about anyone else that wants to do it there own way, but believes in the fundamental spirit of the nation and it's constitution.

I believe this will be required for every nation around the world in the near future. There isn't any land (besides Antarctica) that isn't claimed by some country. We can no longer simply tell a new generation of humans, "If you don't like it here, go somewhere else" - that excuse is being used by every nation at the same time. Moreover, we can't simply tell a new generation to vote - we can't expect people to live out their dreams when majority rule bullies minorities into living the way the majority wants. In fact, majority rule forces us to create social groups, discriminate against people outside our group, and empowers the destructive "us vs. them" thinking. It also tends to create political party cycles - every X years, a country will cycle from left, to center, to right, and all the way back. This is a waste of time and energy.

My question is - what is required to make this happen?

Edited October 29, 2017 by The New Movement

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, The New Movement said:

My question is - what is required to make this happen?

Really, all you need is land, and power.  You need to gather an army, or get a political organization together.  Money will help, or perhaps a really good idea.

The fact that you have to come on to a forum of strangers and ask how to start your fledgling fatherland does not bode well for your chances, though.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, The New Movement said:

My question is - what is required to make this happen?

Crashing the system - burning it to the ground and starting from scratch.

I figure it'll take an interregnum on a evolutionary scale - thousands of generations long at least.

Edited October 29, 2017 by eyeball

[The New Movement]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Really, all you need is land, and power.  You need to gather an army, or get a political organization together.  Money will help, or perhaps a really good idea.

Thanks. I'll go with the political organization. I rather share the country's army. Each town would be responsible for its own police.

[The New Movement]

35 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Crashing the system - burning it to the ground and starting from scratch.

I figure it'll take an interregnum on a evolutionary scale - thousands of generations long at least.

I think the current system works for some people, so it's not worth crashing, as they would just fight to rebuild it.

[eyeball]

I'm pretty sure a lot of Canadians would say creating a new province is on par with crashing the system to so...you'll be in a fight no matter what.

Edited October 29, 2017 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, The New Movement said:

Thanks. I'll go with the political organization. I rather share the country's army. Each town would be responsible for its own police.

Good to read what is required to be recognized as a state.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention

Also - people have tried to encourage like-minded individuals to move to an area (eg. New Hampshire with libertarians) but it's a prohibitively large effort to do so.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Crashing the system - burning it to the ground and starting from scratch.

I figure it'll take an interregnum on a evolutionary scale - thousands of generations long at least.

No.  You don't have to crash it.  Just build something better that works right alongside the old system.  Crypto currency might be the start of that.

[Altai]

4 hours ago, The New Movement said:

I've been thinking about creating a province or territory that governs itself and would not be subject to federal law. 

Here 


 

[The New Movement]

19 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm pretty sure a lot of Canadians would say creating a new province is on par with crashing the system to so...you'll be in a fight no matter what.

Interesting. I wonder what they have against creating a new province? Why would that be such a threat?

[The New Movement]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Good to read what is required to be recognized as a state.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention

Also - people have tried to encourage like-minded individuals to move to an area (eg. New Hampshire with libertarians) but it's a prohibitively large effort to do so.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Yes, I also heard about the libertarians movement to New Hampshire. I did a little search to see if I should move too

[The New Movement]

Just now, Altai said:

Here 


 

That's a neat looking grave. No idea what you're trying to say.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, The New Movement said:

My question is - what is required to make this happen?

 

This process is already defined in Canada...see "Clarity Act".

It also may help to pay millions to the Clinton Foundation so that President Bill Clinton will make helpful speeches:

 

Quote

While looking directly at Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard in the audience, Clinton appeared to echo the Supreme Court Reference, warning that "when a people thinks it should be independent in order to have a meaningful political existence, serious questions should be asked.... Are minority rights as well as majority rights respected? How are we going to co-operate with our neighbours?" Clinton argued that federalism allows peoples seeking recognition of their identity a way to do so without isolating themselves in a nation-state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

 

[The New Movement]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This process is already defined in Canada...see "Clarity Act".

It also may help to pay millions to the Clinton Foundation so that President Bill Clinton will make helpful speeches:

 

 

Thanks, just went through it. It seems fair enough.

Yes, it would be great if we had some extra pocket change for things like that :-)

[-TSS-]

How did Nunavut come about? They obviously thought they needed an area of their own.

[The New Movement]

15 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

How did Nunavut come about? They obviously thought they needed an area of their own.

Good point. It seems they were already in negotiations with the federal government:

 

Quote

 

In 1976, as part of the land claims negotiations between the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami (then called the "Inuit Tapirisat of Canada") and the federal government, the parties discussed division of the Northwest Territories to provide a separate territory for the Inuit. On April 14, 1982, a plebiscite on division was held throughout the Northwest Territories. A majority of the residents voted in favour and the federal government gave a conditional agreement seven months later.[24]

The land claims agreement was completed in September 1992 and ratified by nearly 85% of the voters in Nunavut in a referendum. On July 9, 1993, the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement Act[9] and the Nunavut Act[8] were passed by the Canadian Parliament. The transition to establish Nunavut Territory was completed on April 1, 1999.

 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Nunavut

[Bonam]

You first need to create a de-facto independent region with a population that almost universally supports the idea. Only once you've got at least a few hundred thousand people lined up behind the idea and inhabiting a contiguous region together could you have any hope of getting it recognized in any official way. Even then, national governments have a tendency to crush upstart independence/separatist movement by force, even in otherwise advanced and peaceful countries. The recent events in Spain are a good example. 

It might be cheaper and easier to create the land you need somewhere else that is not presently claimed by any country. Like find a relatively shallow part of the Pacific somewhere and build some islands. A few hundred billion dollars should be all you need. 

[The New Movement]

Just now, Bonam said:

You first need to create a de-facto independent region with a population that almost universally supports the idea. Only once you've got at least a few hundred thousand people lined up behind the idea and inhabiting a contiguous region together could you have any hope of getting it recognized in any official way. Even then, national governments have a tendency to crush upstart independence/separatist movement by force, even in otherwise advanced and peaceful countries. The recent events in Spain are a good example. 

It might be cheaper and easier to create the land you need somewhere else that is not presently claimed by any country. Like find a relatively shallow part of the Pacific somewhere and build some islands. A few hundred billion dollars should be all you need. 

Thanks. Nunavut only has 35,000 so I'm not sure we need hundreds of thousands of people, although that would be great.

Yes, I noticed how fast and hard Spain tried to crush Catalonia. I don't think I'll have to resort to a surprise vote.

Regarding islands, with a few hundred billion dollars, I could likely convince a poorer country to sell me an island and release all their ownership. However, it still wouldn't alleviate the problem long-term. The only real long-term solution is for every country to create a new province/state X for alternative worldviews.

[bush_cheney2004]

It may be possible to organize and model such a state virtually without regard to land.

Political ideologies have long formed and executed alternative policies and actions within existing nation state frameworks and technology.

We have already seen the virtual creation and international recognition of crypto currencies,  voting,  commerce,  revenue collection,  education platforms, etc., which are examples of the working attributes for conventional states.

The hard part would be physical police/military power, but virtual tools have already been weaponized.

Edited October 30, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[cannuck]

there IS a way to do what the OP wants:  find a "first nation" that is on the smaller side, buy out the leadership or just get elected chief and move in.  You can be a sovereign state within a state, make all of your own rules, and get paid handsomely by the Feds just for asking.

[The New Movement]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It may be possible to organize and model such a state virtually without regard to land.

Political ideologies have long formed and executed alternative policies and actions within existing nation state frameworks and technology.

We have already seen the virtual creation and international recognition of crypto currencies,  voting,  commerce,  revenue collection,  education platforms, etc., which are examples of the working attributes for conventional states.

The hard part would be physical police/military power, but virtual tools have already been weaponized.

With my background in computer science, I will jump on the chance to use computer technology and the Internet as much as possible, including crypto currencies, electronic voting, online universities, etc.

One of the main reasons I believe we need our own physical space is to avoid being subjected to federal law. Besides that, it would be great to live and build families with like-minded people. Similar communities around the world would be connected to each other using the Internet.

[The New Movement]

5 minutes ago, cannuck said:

there IS a way to do what the OP wants:  find a "first nation" that is on the smaller side, buy out the leadership or just get elected chief and move in.  You can be a sovereign state within a state, make all of your own rules, and get paid handsomely by the Feds just for asking.

Thanks, that would be great if their weather wasn't so biting cold :-) 

[Benz]

If you do not want to be subject to any federal law, only independence is your solution. But to play the game and brainstorm about the possibility, let's try this.

What you need, is to create a new level. There is the Territory level, mostly governed by the federal with a very small local administration. There is the Province level, having alot of autonomy but, still having alot of power duplications and few domains that are managed by the federal. What you want is to create a new level, the State level. More autonomy than a province, but it has to depend on its own with minimal help from the federal. You would still have to respect the canadian constitution, but you would have a say on it. Which is not necessarly the case of all provinces.

There is only one catch. Canada has to agree with you to create such level. I cannot see how you could manage to convince the federal of such thing. Not realistic. That can be discussed only on a theoriy basis.

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, The New Movement said:

The only real long-term solution is for every country to create a new province/state X for alternative worldviews.

There really is no incentive for them to do this, though.  And if you only have hundreds of citizens, or fewer, then they probably won't even return your calls.  If you do get a response from government, it would manifest itself in an appearance on their 'watch lists' for security reasons.

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 It may be possible to organize and model such a state virtually without regard to land.  Political ideologies have long formed and executed alternative policies and actions within existing nation state frameworks and technology.

 

 This is a sharp observation.  If one can forgo the occupation of a physically discrete territory, and observe the laws of the region then most of the marks of a community are available for you.  Blockchain and internet will allow you to define an economic and communication framework also.