NAFTA negotiations.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

You've fallen into the trap of confusing the general with the specific.

 

It's not a trap....it's a fact, by your own admission or not.   Canada remains the highest cost automotive producer in North America, with sharp employment declines from 2000:

https://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/18/auto_manufacturing_in_canada_in_longterm_decline_report_warns.html

Trudeau and Freeland decided to back Mexico on NAFTA, even though Canada has lost many automotive jobs to that nation, just like the USA.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Boges]

25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It's not a trap....it's a fact, by your own admission or not.   Canada remains the highest cost automotive producer in North America, with sharp employment declines from 2000:

https://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/18/auto_manufacturing_in_canada_in_longterm_decline_report_warns.html

Trudeau and Freeland decided to back Mexico on NAFTA, even though Canada has lost many automotive jobs to that nation, just like the USA.

1) That article is from 2013

2) If Canada's Auto Industry is so dismal that why hasn't it evaporated in the subsequent 5 years. 

3) If Canada's Auto Industry is so uncompetitive then why threaten Tariffs? 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

1) That article is from 2013

2) If Canada's Auto Industry is so dismal that why hasn't it evaporated in the subsequent 5 years. 

3) If Canada's Auto Industry is so uncompetitive then why threaten Tariffs? 

 

1)  ...and more plants have closed since then.

2)  Because it took 10 years to lose 50,000 jobs before that.

3)  Because auto tariffs would really, really hurt Team Trudeau.

[Boges]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

1)  ...and more plants have closed since then.

2)  Because it took 10 years to lose 50,000 jobs before that.

3)  Because auto tariffs would really, really hurt Team Trudeau.

So I take it from this post that tariffs are vindictive and the goal is just to kill another countries industry by artificially raising the price to import. Because JT is a bad dude and deserves it. 

I'm glad American's at large don't have this view and only an isolationist fringe. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

So I take it from this post that tariffs are vindictive and the goal is just to kill another countries industry by artificially raising the price to import. Because JT is a bad dude and deserves it. 

I'm glad American's at large don't have this view and only an isolationist fringe. 

 

Whatever.....please let me know when a Canadian owned car make builds an assembly plant in the USA.

If Trump can "kill" Canada's auto industry all by himself, then maybe Canada/Ontario are way too dependent on another nation's economy.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Whatever.....please let me know when a Canadian owned car make builds an assembly plant in the USA.

If Trump can "kill" Canada's auto industry all by himself, then maybe Canada/Ontario are way too dependent on another nation's economy.

 

New for 2019. The Bombardier Narrow Body CS100 Coup!

Seats two and a half people comfortably... 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If Trump can "kill" Canada's auto industry all by himself, then maybe Canada/Ontario are way too dependent on another nation's economy.

It's like you act all insulted when Canadians want access to the American market when Americans want want access to the Canadian market all the time. I hear a Chick-fil-A is gonna be opening in Toronto. 

Trump won't be able to do it on his own unless the GOP retains the House. 

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

It's like you act all insulted when Canadians want access to the American market when Americans want want access to the Canadian market all the time. I hear a Chick-fil-A is gonna be opening in Toronto. 

Trump won't be able to do it on his own unless the GOP retains the House. 

 

Trump is just the latest U.S. president...and like all those before him, is not responsible for Canada's economic dependencies.   See "softwood lumber".

Canada wants access to the world's biggest national economy while offering far less opportunity in return.

Edited August 13, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada wants access to the world's biggest national economy while offering far less opportunity in return.

Again you're acting like American's do business with Canada against their will. The deal is just too good to be true. 

If you need tariffs then you're the ones that aren't being competitive. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Boges said:

Again you're acting like American's do business with Canada against their will. The deal is just too good to be true. 

If you need tariffs then you're the ones that aren't being competitive. 

 

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to the game....see "Canada" and "supply management".

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to the game....see "Canada" and "supply management".

And see subsidizing Farmers because of Retaliatory tariffs. Seems to help some farmers Trump has hurt sooooooo many more. 

Also isn't US Corn and Soy heavily subsidized in the US? How is that fair to Canadian Corn and Soy producers? 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

And see subsidizing Farmers because of Retaliatory tariffs. Seems to help some farmers Trump has hurt sooooooo many more. 

Also isn't US Corn and Soy heavily subsidized in the US? How is that fair to Canadian Corn and Soy producers? 

 

Canada has been challenged on tariffs and non-tariff barriers that protect dairy, poultry, and other industries for decades by many nations (New Zealand, EU, Brazil, USA, etc.).

Trump did not invent this issue all by himself.

Don't like it ?    Stop trade with the USA...seek true love elsewhere.

 

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's not a trap....it's a fact, by your own admission or not.   Canada remains the highest cost automotive producer in North America, with sharp employment declines from 2000:

https://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/18/auto_manufacturing_in_canada_in_longterm_decline_report_warns.html

Trudeau and Freeland decided to back Mexico on NAFTA, even though Canada has lost many automotive jobs to that nation, just like the USA.

 

 

You don't understand productivity, do you? It has nothing to do with wages. It is simply a calculation of how many units of labor it takes to produce a product in comparison to the number of hours it takes to produce the same product in another location, jurisdiction or with a different technology. Cost efficiency, which you seem obsessed with, is something else altogether.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

You don't understand productivity, do you? It has nothing to do with wages. It is simply a calculation of how many units of labor it takes to produce a product in comparison to the number of hours it takes to produce the same product in another location, jurisdiction or with a different technology. Cost efficiency, which you seem obsessed with, is something else altogether.

 

Yes, I think I do understand productivity, and I also understand that Canadian worker productivity lags many other OECD nations.

Do you understand that ?

[turningrite]

5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes, I think I do understand productivity...

You 'think' you do, which more or less confirms that you actually don't. And the content of your comments regarding the subject cement this impression for me. Just saying....

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, turningrite said:

You 'think' you do, which more or less confirms that you actually don't. And the content of your comments regarding the subject cement this impression for me. Just saying....

 

That's OK....your impressions are irrelevant to the factual matter of lagging labour productivity in Canada.   Ontario even lags the Canadian average.  Just sayin'....

 

Quote

Ontario’s labour productivity growth has lagged the US and Canadian average, although growth has accelerated over the last three years (Exhibit 4). Reduced labour productivity growth across individual sectors as well as increased concentration of economic activity in lower productivity sectors are contributing to this trend. Manufacturing, in particular, saw a considerable decline in both productivity and its relative share of the overall economy. Additionally, insufficient investment in information and communications technology (ICT), slow adoption of technologies and innovative practices by businesses, and weak R&D spending are among the factors that continue to hold productivity back in Ontario. Increasing productivity is the only lever that can be used to sustain the long-term rise in the standard of living.

https://www.competeprosper.ca/blog/ontario-economic-update-lowest-median-income-growth-in-canada-what-gives

 

[turningrite]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's OK....your impressions are irrelevant to the factual matter of lagging labour productivity in Canada.   Ontario even lags the Canadian average.  Just sayin'....

 

I've already covered that territory where the auto industry is concerned, so you'll have to try harder.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I've already covered that territory where the auto industry is concerned, so you'll have to try harder.

 

No, I have clearly backed up my claims with "cites"....you haven't.

Quote

...Additionally, insufficient investment in information and communications technology (ICT), slow adoption of technologies and innovative practices by businesses, and weak R&D spending are among the factors that continue to hold productivity back in Ontario.

 

Ontario is bringing down the Canadian average !

Edited August 14, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, I have clearly backed up my claims with "cites"....you haven't.

 

Where? As I believe another commentator pointed out, you responded to my post and link about auto sector productivity in Canada with an outdated article. And then you confused labor productivity and cost efficiency, thus undermining the credibility of your argument. Ontario is undoubtedly an expensive jurisdiction and yet remains the manufacturing centre of Canada. Some of America's most expensive states in which to operate businesses, including Massachusetts and California, are also among the country's most prosperous. Where manufacturing productivity has suffered in Canada, this has often been due to investor choices and not due to bad workers. Overall, Canadian productivity is dragged down mainly by the over reliance on resource industries and the increasing transition to a services-focused economy. Manufacturing productivity in Canada, aside from the auto-related industries, has suffered in some instances due to investor choices, including by American corporations, that prefer cheap labor over innovation.

[bush_cheney2004]

18 minutes ago, turningrite said:

.... Overall, Canadian productivity is dragged down mainly by the over reliance on resource industries and the increasing transition to a services-focused economy. Manufacturing productivity in Canada, aside from the auto-related industries, has suffered in some instances due to investor choices, including by American corporations, that prefer cheap labor over innovation.

 

I don't care what the excuses are...clearly Ontario has lower labour productivity than the Canadian average and the United States.

It's not my purpose to explain why Ontario sucks in this regard...others have already explained why.

Many other multinationals operate in Canada for the auto sector, so it is not just the Americans.....nice try.

Edited August 14, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

Well we could look at productivity of plants.  Canadian manufacturing is quite high tech.  Our auto plants are among the most productive.  Our labour force is highly skilled and educated.  We shouldn't apologize for this.  There's always been that push from Right to Work states and Mexico to lower wages and scrap unions.  I find it interesting that usually the jurisdictions of Canada and the U.S. where wages are higher have more sophisticated manufacturing.  The Japanese have demonstrated that it can be done without unions, but Japanese workers are among the best paid workers worldwide.  If you pay people peanuts, you get monkeys.  The challenge as our economies have become more service oriented (for a host of reasons), is making service jobs pay.  Richard Florida has discussed this in detail.  With automation and programming increasingly running the show, an elite "Creative Class" has emerged.  We may want everyone to join that class and try to educated people accordingly, but we may soon find (we're already finding it) that only so many people can do that kind of work.  We will try to salvage and build our manufacturing, prevent offshoring, and so forth, but service jobs are a reality we have to contend with, like unemployment.

As for this attack on Canada.  We hear we're too low cost or we're too expensive.  We're too productive or we're too unproductive.  Smart companies and investors will invest in good businesses.  Canada has a strong market and good workers.  If you're manufacturing isn't cheap, it better have a strong value add of some kind.  We can talk about unfair subsidies, tariffs, supply management, you name it.  Countries do this.  Subsidies are about taxpayers bailing out private industry (hardly capitalist and ironically the U.S. approach to supporting farmers).  Supply management has been the Canadian way of ensuring price and supply stability in some of its agriculture (government interventions, but without taxpayer subsidies).  There are grievances from both sides relating to these practices.  Either each side compromises or the agreement contains exceptions, which is typical in trade agreements.

There have been U.S. complaints about dairy subsidies.  Maybe these are legitimate, but I know the U.S. has different dairy regulations from Canada's.  It also has a dairy surplus with Canada, as it has an auto sales surplus with Canada and an overall trade surplus with Canada.  All my life the high U.S. slapped tariffs on our softwood and tried to maintain them even after the NAFTA tribunal had made decisions in Canada's favour.  The U.S. would challenge these rulings.  Canada also appealed decisions.  Yet I see something more disturbing now, wherein the U.S. is undermining the mechanisms used to ensure fair trade, such as the WTO tribunal judges.  They've also been using the false excuse of a "security threat" to place tariffs on steel and aluminum, materials which the U.S. trades at a surplus with Canada.  There was also the Draconian 300% tariff on Bombardier for its C Series planes.  If it's really about open markets, then keep them open.  If it isn't entirely about open markets, if governments do see a need for some protections, then these protections need to be spelled out in agreements.  We've learned that there are times when government has had to intervene to prevent economic collapse.  Countries have to be up front going into negotiations about what the non-negotiables are and, if need be, remove them from the table. 

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well we could look at productivity of plants.  Canadian manufacturing is quite high tech.  Our auto plants are among the most productive.  Our labour force is highly skilled and educated.  We shouldn't apologize for this. 

 

Clearly labour productivity in Canada, and especially in Ontario is lagging peer nations and states/provinces.  

I am not just making up the data, which is plain to see, as are the reasons.

 

Quote

As for this attack on Canada.  We hear we're too low cost or we're too expensive.  We're too productive or we're too unproductive.  Smart companies and investors will invest in good businesses.  Canada has a strong market and good workers.  If you're manufacturing isn't cheap, it better have a strong value add of some kind. 

 

Actually, the biggest knock against Canada is that there is too little value ad, relying too much on the export of raw materials that are imported as far more valuable finished goods.

I believe the common Biblical reference for Canada in this regard is:  "Hewers of wood and drawers of water".

 

Quote

 If it's really about open markets, then keep them open.  If it isn't entirely about open markets, if governments do see a need for some protections, then these protections need to be spelled out in agreements.  We've learned that there are times when government has had to intervene to prevent economic collapse.  Countries have to be up front going into negotiations about what the non-negotiables are and, if need be, remove them from the table. 

 

Then drop all tariffs and non-tariff barriers, stop the IP theft, and stop the dumping/transshipment from China.

Canada would cut down every damn beetle infested tree in the country if it could dump it all on the U.S. economy.

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

Ha ha, you're so wrong in almost all your points, but I've already explained this many times.  We don't do IP theft, nor do we "dump" lumber or other commodities.  We have a strong tech sector and sophisticated manufacturing, but you fail to see the whole picture, focusing only on data that supports your argument.  From time to time the U.S. goes after us on the sale of some of our resources/commodities primarily because we produce a lot of them to meet high demand, in construction for example.  Are you proposing quotas (lol)?  Also, don't even try to slam Canada on auto productivity.  You're repeating misconceptions again to try to make what you want to be true a reality.  We could say a lot about how Trump's actions are creating trade mayhem.  He's now trying to rally a boycott against Harley Davidson because it is trying to maintain its market share in the E.U. AFTER TRUMP CAUSED A TARIFF TRADE WAR WITH EUROPE.  Trump is interfering with business.  The more he engages in this practice of escalating barriers, the more his policies will be questioned.  American farmers are getting anxious.  Trump is one guy.  If he screws up, he will be replaced.  Same goes for Trudeau. 

With regard to Canada, suffice it to say that businesses and consumers decide which businesses to patronize based on the factors that they deem to be important.  Canada is overall quite competitive.  If we weren't, most businesses in Canada would suffer.  Some businesses flourish and others fail because either they successfully meet demand or they don't.  That's how business works.  Consumers have many choices.  In a free market economy, their decisions take precedence over what one or a handful of people in government think people should want.  Below is an interesting old article regarding what happened to the most productive auto plant in North America.  Being productive is obviously just one factor businesses have to consider.

Doomed GM plant is most productive

Rankings show GM plant slated to close takes least time of any in North America to assemble a car.

By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer

May 31 2007: 3:59 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The most productive auto plant in North America is doomed - it's on the list of plants that General Motors is closing as the world's largest automaker slashes capacity in a bid to stem losses.

The annual ranking of auto plant productivity by Harbour Consulting found GM's Oshawa No. 2 plant is the most productive in the North American auto industry.

GM narrowed the productivity gap with its Japanese rivals in 2006, according to a study released Thursday, but its most productivity plant is slated to close next year.

 

That plant is among the plants that GM (Charts, Fortune 500) plans to close in coming years as it seeks to get capacity closer in line with demand.

The Ontario plant, which makes the Pontiac Grand Prix and Buick LaCrosse and Allure, took only 15.68 hours on average to build a vehicle in 2006. That's an improvement from the 16.08 hours it took in 2005, and is better than the 16.34 hours it takes to build a vehicle at the neighboring Oshawa No. 1 GM assembly line.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[turningrite]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I don't care what the excuses are...

It's not my purpose to explain why Ontario sucks in this regard...others have already explained why.

I'm glad you're conceding by means of admitting that it's not your purpose to explain. Presumably, your purpose is merely to express your opinions, which you have done. In any case, it's your prerogative but we now know this argument is at an end and you're position has lost.

[turningrite]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Ha ha, you're so wrong in almost all your points, but I've already explained this many times. 

 

It's pointless to raise facts about this matter with critics whose minds are made up and in some cases apparently don't even understand the concept of labor productivity. Those of us reading this string who have a grasp of facts understand your argument.