NAFTA negotiations.

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure, but I am also acknowledging that Canada is a relative deadbeat when it comes to R&D investment based on OECD rankings.

It needs to be higher.  Recommendations?

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It needs to be higher.  Recommendations?

 

Favourable tax policy, more government-business partnerships, and expanded university research programs.

If Israel can lead OECD nations as a percentage of GDP,  Canada can certainly do better.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Favourable tax policy, more government-business partnerships, and expanded university research programs.

If Israel can lead OECD nations as a percentage of GDP,  Canada can certainly do better.

We had a lot of gov-funded research chairs.  Harper had cut these back, however.  We have many private-public partnerships.  I definitely think that there's too much reliance on government to take care of this kind of work in Canada.

[Wilber]

Little Donny is upset because the mean lady won't let him have his way. Sad.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4491165/trump-trashes-freeland-ambassador-says-she-is-ok/

[bush_cheney2004]

Has little to do with Freeland...Trump's intentions for NAFTA have been clear all along...destroy it, at least for U.S. membership.

NAFTA already had provisions for any member to leave after six months notice.

Trump wants to trash the original FTA too.

 

[Zeitgeist]

If Trump follow through with his threats, the tariffs and counter tariffs will damage exports for both countries, especially as the US exports more cars to Canada than Canada exports to the US.  He will have more workers, companies and countries blaming him.  There will be implications at the midterms and the next presidential election.  Trump’s last press conference  remarks on trade are more fodder for anti-Trump forces.  He’s really unifying Canadians against him and giving Trudeau the next election.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If Trump follow through with his threats, the tariffs and counter tariffs will damage exports for both countries, especially as the US exports more cars to Canada than Canada exports to the US.  He will have more workers, companies and countries blaming him.  There will be implications at the midterms and the next presidential election.  Trump’s last press conference  remarks on trade are more fodder for anti-Trump forces.  He’s really unifying Canadians against him and giving Trudeau the next election.  

 

I don't think Trump cares either way...especially about a Canadian federal election.

Most Americans are not so invested in Canadian politics.

Edited September 28, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

He seemed worried about Trudeau’s remarks after the G7 Conference.   Trump’s remarks on trade with Canada this week illustrate that he cares very much about the US’s biggest export market.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

He seemed worried about Trudeau’s remarks after the G7 Conference.   Trump’s remarks on trade with Canada this week illustrate that he cares very much about the US’s biggest export market.

 

That's just Trump's petulance....he doesn't care which party / PM "rules" in Canada.   Most Americans don't...why would they ?

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's just Trump's petulance....he doesn't care which party / PM "rules" in Canada.   Most Americans don't...why would they ?

It’s this kind of arrogance the world sees. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s this kind of arrogance the world sees. 

 

Sure....nothing new about that just because of Trump.

Americans...arrogant.   Canadians...smug.

Big deal.....

[turningrite]

16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Has little to do with Freeland...Trump's intentions for NAFTA have been clear all along...destroy it, at least for U.S. membership.

NAFTA already had provisions for any member to leave after six months notice.

Trump wants to trash the original FTA too.

 

The problem for Trump is that many powerful interests in the U.S., including the big U.S. automakers and the industrial unions, don't share his views about trade with Canada. And they're clearly exerting their influence to thwart Trump's ability to act out on his instincts. Even when taking a swing at Canada during his press conference at the UN this week, Trump undermined his own argument by stating that he could proceed with a U.S.-Mexico deal and Canada will come later, thus suggesting that he likely won't unilaterally pull the plug on the Canada-U.S. trade arrangement. I'm not sure that Trump has much in-depth knowledge of the trade file. He is clearly correct that the WTO system is problematic and that the form of corporate globalism that's emerged under the guise of "free trade" has sacrificed the interests, stability and prosperity of American industrial workers, but this has also been the case for industrial workers throughout the developed world, including in Canada. Trudeau is a shill for the corporate globalists and thus perhaps deserves Trump's ire, but as a country Canada, while it presents some valid irritants (i.e. supply management in dairy), shouldn't be Trump's enemy.

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, turningrite said:

.... Trudeau is a shill for the corporate globalists and thus perhaps deserves Trump's ire, but as a country Canada, while it presents some valid irritants (i.e. supply management in dairy), shouldn't be Trump's enemy.

 

I can certainly understand why Trudeau/Canada feel singled out, as Canada is a party to NAFTA.   But Trump's purpose and scope goes far beyond North America.   He has also taken on China, America's #1 trading partner for total import-export trade.   Trump already has a new trade deal with South Korea in the bag.

Canada has personalized any animus between Trump and Trudeau....Americans haven't.   It's just another trade negotiation, with "irritants" well defined beforehand (tariffs, non-tariff barriers, transshipments, IP theft, automotive content, dumping, dispute resolution, etc.).    Mexico  decided to cut to the chase...Canada wants to fight back for domestic political reasons (my guess).

Edited September 28, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I can certainly understand why Trudeau/Canada feel singled out, as Canada is a party to NAFTA.   But Trump's purpose and scope goes far beyond North America.   He has also taken on China, America's #1 trading partner for total import-export trade.   Trump already has a new trade deal with South Korea in the bag.

Canada has personalized any animus between Trump and Trudeau....Americans haven't.   It's just another trade negotiation, with "irritants" well defined beforehand (tariffs, non-tariff barriers, transshipments, IP theft, automotive content, dumping, dispute resolution, etc.).    Mexico  decided to cut to the chase...Canada wants to fight back for domestic political reasons (my guess).

Trump has changed his tack in one important respect, which is that he now makes it clear that his battle is with the Canadian government and its negotiators and representatives rather than with Canadians as a whole, who enjoy a level of passive goodwill among Americans that isn't enjoyed by many others, except perhaps Brits. As governments and political parties do extensive polling, this was probably being reflected in American public opinion, particularly in border states, otherwise Trump wouldn't have changed course. Mexico was in a weaker position than is Canada. It apparently agreed to conditions that Canada simply won't accept. It's main entry to U.S. markets is predicated on cheap labour, something Canada doesn't rely on. A lot of observers believe that other than for the auto sector in Ontario the demise of NAFTA wouldn't have a hugely negative impact on Canada's now largely services-based economy. Prior to Trump's NAFTA-inspired anti-Canada campaign, I recall one poll indicating that something like 25 percent of Canadians thought the country had benefited under the FTA/NAFTA regime, suggesting only lukewarm support for the arrangement. Support for the status quo grew as Trump's attacks commenced mainly due to the prospect of change, which few relish. But we can adapt to it if need be. One thing Trump will have to be careful about going forward is that his continuing bluster is actually boosting the Trudeau government's political fortunes. If he wants to see friendlier faces in power in Ottawa, he'd be best advised not give Trudeau a helping hand.

Edited September 28, 2018 by turningrite

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, turningrite said:

...Support for the status quo grew as Trump's attacks commenced mainly due to the prospect of change, which few relish. But we can adapt to it if need be. One thing Trump will have to be careful about going forward is that his continuing bluster is actually boosting the Trudeau government's political fortunes. If he wants to see friendlier faces in power in Ottawa, he'd be best advised not give Trudeau a helping hand.

 

OK, but this is not playing out the same way in the United States.   It is not a front-burner issue for everyday Americans...the economy is clicking on all cylinders with record benchmarks.   A Pew poll referenced in today's G&M also finds lukewarm love for NAFTA....not critical in the majority view of those polled.

Trump does not care about friends in Ottawa....U.S. diplomats and other wonks may...but not Trump.   It's just a game to him, purposely eschewing traditional diplomatic protocols like Rodney Dangerfield on a golf course.

In general, the amount that Canadians invest in this process and relationship does not translate well to the United States/Americans.   Americans don't hate Canada...they are largely indifferent and aloof to what NAFTA means to domestic Canadian politics and economics.   It is not personal....

[Rue]

On 9/27/2018 at 10:14 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Has little to do with Freeland...Trump's intentions for NAFTA have been clear all along...destroy it, at least for U.S. membership.

NAFTA already had provisions for any member to leave after six months notice.

Trump wants to trash the original FTA too.

 

I agree. Trump has been out to blow up Nafta and all trade agreements his country has entered into with other countries. 

[Rue]

23 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK, but this is not playing out the same way in the United States.   It is not a front-burner issue for everyday Americans...the economy is clicking on all cylinders with record benchmarks.   A Pew poll referenced in today's G&M also finds lukewarm love for NAFTA....not critical in the majority view of those polled.

Trump does not care about friends in Ottawa....U.S. diplomats and other wonks may...but not Trump.   It's just a game to him, purposely eschewing traditional diplomatic protocols like Rodney Dangerfield on a golf course.

In general, the amount that Canadians invest in this process and relationship does not translate well to the United States/Americans.   Americans don't hate Canada...they are largely indifferent and aloof to what NAFTA means to domestic Canadian politics and economics.   It is not personal....

I think you are at least bloody frank about Trump. I am not so sure if people in the states that do business with Canada are as aloof as you think. It could be they have something to say in the mid terms about that.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

I think you are at least bloody frank about Trump. I am not so sure if people in the states that do business with Canada are as aloof as you think. It could be they have something to say in the mid terms about that.

 

Some may....most won't.

I always assumed that Canadians were keenly aware of America's indifference to Canada, another source of cross-border frustration.   Stranger still, why would or should the Americans give more deference to Canada's economy than to Mexico's for hard-ball NAFTA negotiations ?

Reading Canadian media on this issue, one can't help but think that many Canadians think they are special, with a special relationship with the U.S. , and now they are so hard done by.   This kind of drama ignores the historical record before and after NAFTA.  

To your point, is Canada now hoping that elections in a foreign country will save them from Justin Trudeau and Donald Trump ?

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

23 hours ago, turningrite said:

Trump has changed his tack in one important respect, which is that he now makes it clear that his battle is with the Canadian government and its negotiators and representatives rather than with Canadians as a whole, who enjoy a level of passive goodwill among Americans that isn't enjoyed by many others, except perhaps Brits. As governments and political parties do extensive polling, this was probably being reflected in American public opinion, particularly in border states, otherwise Trump wouldn't have changed course. Mexico was in a weaker position than is Canada. It apparently agreed to conditions that Canada simply won't accept. It's main entry to U.S. markets is predicated on cheap labour, something Canada doesn't rely on. A lot of observers believe that other than for the auto sector in Ontario the demise of NAFTA wouldn't have a hugely negative impact on Canada's now largely services-based economy. Prior to Trump's NAFTA-inspired anti-Canada campaign, I recall one poll indicating that something like 25 percent of Canadians thought the country had benefited under the FTA/NAFTA regime, suggesting only lukewarm support for the arrangement. Support for the status quo grew as Trump's attacks commenced mainly due to the prospect of change, which few relish. But we can adapt to it if need be. One thing Trump will have to be careful about going forward is that his continuing bluster is actually boosting the Trudeau government's political fortunes. If he wants to see friendlier faces in power in Ottawa, he'd be best advised not give Trudeau a helping hand.

I would not put any credence on anything Trump says. He has made it clear his rhetoric contradicts itself and changes itself at a moment. He has no consistency and no intelligent design in what he says. He has shown he can not handle nuance, meta communication or coded language. He can't read let alone read between the lines or be subtle.

Trump went into Nafta thinking he did not have to understand it's complexities and if he was rude, threw out some belligerent ultimatums, this would be a good tactic. He says as much in his art of the deal book where he claims being rude, belligerent and aggressive are good pressure tactics. He has no clue why that would or could be counter productive and how it in effect has empowered those that stand up to the rudeness.

He has no clue about what he is blowing up. To him this is personal, everything that challenges him in his mind warrants a rude personal insult in response because he has a narcissistic personality disorder. Any view or position he does not agree with is to be called fake, false, and the messenger or holder of that view is to be defined as something inferior to be insulted.

He most certainly does and did intend to insult all Canadians with his words and will continue to do so. The fact he insults all Canadians, then says he likes Canadians, means nothing. He constantly disconnects and says the exact opposites. He has a personality disorder manifested in constant opposite statements. Go back and listen to any speech he gives. He makes a statement. Then he says something the exact opposite. Then he goes back to the first statement. He has no fixed view. The only thing constant is his personal attacks on everyone He thinks disagrees with him.

Wife beaters often say sorry they did not mean it. That is the abusive behaviourv Trumpn ngages in. He abuses, then poses himself as the victim and the target of his abuse as the abuser.

Make no mistake this is not about any Canadian rep. It is about all Canada and the entire world in Trump's mind. He stated at the UN the entire world is a problem for him. Listen to his speech. This is a man who sees the entire world as a problem.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

57 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Some may....most won't.

I always assumed that Canadians were keenly aware of America's indifference to Canada, another source of cross-border frustration.   Stranger still, why would or should the Americans give more deference to Canada's economy than to Mexico's for hard-ball NAFTA negotiations ?

Reading Canadian media on this issue, one can't help but think that many Canadians think they are special, with a special relationship with the U.S. , and now they are so hard done by.   This kind of drama ignores the historical record before and after NAFTA.  

To your point, is Canada now hoping that elections in a foreign country will save them from Justin Trudeau and Donald Trump ?

 

In regards to your first comment I would not expect any of the three countries to do anything but negotiate to protect their interests. Its Trump who has a problem understanding that and misrepresents Canadian negotiators of being too hard-ball while he makes idiot threats about tariffs and hurls personal insults at imagined slights against him interfering with the hard work his negotiators are doing patronizing them as if they need Trump to make loud farting noises to bolster their positions.

In regards to your second comment I think the Canadian press may at times mistake our meaning in the US but may I say most of us Canadians are very aware how unaware US politicians and Americans are of Canada to the point we have comedies on it on t.v. and have an inferiority complex about it yes.

I would hope some of us know the difference between our individual  subjective impressions of American ignorance which I would argue you call indifference.

I am confident US citizens doing business with Canada are well aware of what Canadian trade means to them.

We Canadians  are never surprised at American protectionist policies that constantly have violated NAFTA and destroyed many of our industries prior to Nafta.

We are well aware the US constantly  violated Nafta and was held accountable in the dispute resolution process for the constant violations and so rather than acknowledge it's litany of violations at this time, wants to now get rid of the dispute resolution process so it can can continue to violate any new agreement.

Have Trump explain to you who in fact violated Nafta and abused who and how he wants to be able to continue that abuse and considers preventing that abuse through a dispute resolution process abusive. The analogy is Trump wants to continue beating his wife and if his wife says no more, she is abusing him, and better still if the law tries to hold him responsible, the law is abusive.

We are well aware the same Trump who claims we abuse dairy farmers slapped a punitive tarrif on Bomardier aircraft sales and has no problem engaging in the very practices he accused Canada of.

I can say most Canadians don't expect a damn thing from the US but quid pro quo.Canadians do not need your love as much as you think although I do but only in the case of Halle Berry or Jennifer Lopez.  

Yes we are too dependent which makes us vulnerable to the US acting as our drug pusher.We need to get off the juice of find another supplier.  

In regards to your last comment I would think at this point the entire world including Americans will be happy when Trump goes.

Also if I am a Trudeau lover I want Trump on office. Anyone at this pointvstanding up to Trump automatically looks good.

I say that as  generralizations. For me Trump is just an ignorant simpleton who if I do catch him on t.v. is simply a reminder of the difficult behaviour problems associated with Alzheimer's and men with bad haircuts.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

19 minutes ago, Rue said:

In regards to your first comment I would not expect any of the three countries to do anything but negotiate to protect their interests. Its Trump who has a problem understanding that and misrepresents Canadian negotiators of being too hard-ball while he makes idiot threats about tariffs and hurls personal insults at imagined slights against him interfering with the hard work his negotiators are doing patronizing them as if they need Trump to make loud farting noises to bolster their positions.

 

It is not a problem for Trump at all, it is a successful strategy that he deployed well enough to win a GOP nomination and presidential election.   Trudeau and Freeland took the bait and went after Trump in speeches and interviews, demanding that the U.S. keep supporting the "post WW2 order" that they can't protect themselves. 

 

Quote

In regards to your second comment I think the Canadian press may at times mistake it's meaning in the US but may I say most of us Canadians are very aware how unaware US politicians and Americans are of Canada to the point we have comedies on it on t.v. and have an inferiority complex about it yes. However if we are to generalize Canada has been rated the most educated country in the world. I would hope that means some of us know the difference between are subjective impressions of American ignorance of people from business people.

 

Then why are Canadian media whining the blues about Trump ?   Why did Canada expect anything different than what Trump actually said he would do...you know...since Canadians are so well educated and loves to tell the world as much ?

The American business people already own 50% of Canada's manufacturing base, and a good portion of bitumen/oil production and distribution (increasing after NAFTA).

 

Quote

US citizens doing business with Canada are well aware of what Canadian trade means for them. We are never surprised at why this then generates American protectionist policies that violated NAFTA.

We are well aware the US violated Nafta and was held accountable in the dispute resolution process forvthe constant violations and so rather than acknowledge it's litany of violations wants to now get rid of the dispute resolution process so it can can continue to violate any new agreement.

 

Again, the vast majority of Americans don't care....it is not something we go to bed every night worrying about.   They do not gobble up Canadian news and entertainment media...NAFTA is just more filler on network broadcasts.

If Canada doesn't like America's "violations" of NAFTA, it has been free to leave it for over 25 years, but never has, and we know why.    Trump isn't the first president to hammer Canada on trade, and he won't be the last.

 

Quote

We don't expect a damn thing from the US but quid pro quo.Canadians do not need your love as much as you think. Yes we are too dependent which makes us vulnerable to the US acting as our drug pusher.We need to get off the juice of find another supplier. 

 

Then Trump is actually doing Canada a huge favour....forcing Canada to kick itself in the ass and develop more trade diversification.   The U.S. is far more diversified on trade than is Canada (or Mexico).  

 

Quote

In regards to your last comment I would think at this point the entire world including Americans will be happy when Trump goes.

Also if I am a leftist, terrorist, Trudeau lover or abusive shmuck,  extrene right wing lunatic I would want Trump to stay.  He makes Trudeau the underdog, enables leftists to use Trump as a negative false stereotype for what all political ideologies are except leftist ones, and if I am a facist, wife beater, racist, he gives me inspiration.

I say that as  generralizations. For me Trump is just an ignorant simpleton who if I do catch him on t.v. is simply a reminder of the difficult behaviour problems associated with Alzheimer's and men with bad haircuts.

Bad hair cuts I think are what was responsible for Trump, Hussein, Ghaddafi, Hussein, Mugabe, Stalin, Hitler and Kathleen Wynne.

 

Trump is just another American president....foreigners investing so much disdain for him only exemplifies just how dependent they are on what America does, real or imagined.

Trump (and the next president after him) matter far more than Trudeau...sorry  (not sorry).

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

NAFTA matters more than the UN to Freeland...and Canada:

 

Quote

Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland's speech to the UN General Assembly in New York City today will now take place Monday due to NAFTA talks, and officials say there is a strong possibility someone else might have to deliver the remarks on Canada's behalf.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nafta-deadline-freeland-un-washington-canada-1.4844134

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

She’s our Trade Minister.  What else should she do?   It’s been said many times, but obviously needs repetition: NAFTA has always been a mixed bag for Canada.  Increased trade and fewer barriers are generally good for countries.  Unfair trade agreements are not.  So whether you call it the new NAFTA, the Trump Extortion Deal for America or anything else, we won’t sign a shit deal.  

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

She’s our Trade Minister.  What else should she do?   It’s been said many times, but obviously needs repetition: NAFTA has always been a mixed bag for Canada.  Increased trade and fewer barriers are generally good for countries.  Unfair trade agreements are not.  So whether you call it the new NAFTA, the Trump Extortion Deal for America or anything else, we won’t sign a shit deal.  

 

I thought JIm Carr was Minister of International Trade....not Freeland...as of July.

I hope NAFTA goes away forever...replaced by unilateral trade deals instead.

Canada already signed a "shit deal" back in 1993.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The American business people already own 50% of Canada's manufacturing base, and a good portion of bitumen/oil production and distribution (increasing after NAFTA).

 

If Canada doesn't like America's "violations" of NAFTA, it has been free to leave it for over 25 years, but never has, and we know why.    Trump isn't the first president to hammer Canada on trade, and he won't be the last.

 

Then Trump is actually doing Canada a huge favour....forcing Canada to kick itself in the ass and develop more trade diversification.   The U.S. is far more diversified on trade than is Canada (or Mexico).  

 

Trump is just another American president....foreigners investing so much disdain for him only exemplifies just how dependent they are on what America does, real or imagined.

Trump (and the next president after him) matter far more than Trudeau...sorry  (not sorry).

 

Can't argue with any of the above BC. Most of what you say I agree with, I have said it from day one, Canada's decision to be over-dependent on the US will of course make us vulnerable to American protectionist policies. America engages in protectionism no different than we do in Canada. We were lazy in the sense of not investigating in our own businesses and looking outside US markets.

Changing the subject a bit but including NAFTA,  Canada has to reach out for new markets other than China and the US. No point whining about that.

Next Canada US relations and for that matter US relations with any nation is far larger in complexity, meaning and duration that a President who is in term for at most 8 years which is not that much if we put it in perspective

Trudeaus and Trumps come and go.

You also know my biases. I have always been pro American foreign policy most of the time until Obama came in. I actually think the UN Ambassador for the US Nicki Haley is brilliant and fresh air in a corrupt  UN.  I personally have problems with many international organizations corrupted by foreign governments with questionable agendas.

I think Trump undermined what she was doing and turned himself into a fool before the UN making countries like China and Iran look good. The problem with Trump is because he has become so out of control and lunatic fringe any relevant issues to do with Chinese predatory pricing, Iran and its funding of g terrorism and engaging in terror against its own citizens and embracing the likes of Putin and Kim, has compromised US foreign policy