Brian Mulroney vs Stephen Harper

[August1991]

Mulroney's Legacy

1. He gave us a free trade agreement.

2. He gave us the GST.

3. He tried to change UI.

4. He tried to change our Constitution.

======

Harper's Legacy

1. He got rid of the penny.

2. He said "Désormais... "

3. He changed our hate speech law.

4. He tried to change the Senate.

===

Am I missing something?

Edited August 28, 2017 by August1991

[August1991]

I admire anglo-saxon words such as rid and got. Short, and guttural. Impressive.

[-TSS-]

Someone else on this forum informed me when I asked about Mulroney that he turned out to be a crook and a liar and therefore he is not much missed in your country. All politicians are crooks and liars but the trick is not to get caught.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Mulroney's legacy:

He almost broke up the country.

Harper's legacy:

He almost destroyed the country.

Edited August 29, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[PIK]

14 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Mulroney's legacy:

He almost broke up the country.

Harper's legacy:

He almost destroyed the country.

Actually under harper the country was at peace. They was no threats of separation from anyone and also at peace with the provinces. The country actually was humming along, and was the envy of the world, and then came trudeau. So I have no idea where you come up with harper destroying the country.

[CITIZEN_2015]

I meant with his (Harper's) extreme right wing attitudes and policies, his style of running the country and even his own party with iron fist. His dictatorial tactics and the corrupt manner he ran the government and the scandals after scandals during his rule. The manipulative manner he imposed his ideologies. His imposed rules and laws were ideological not evidence based. His rule was alien to this country and undemocratic going against all the principles that this country was founded and stands. His exclusiveness versus inclusiveness adopted by Trudeau.

Edited August 29, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[PIK]

18 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I meant with his (Harper's) extreme right wing attitudes and policies, his style of running the country and even his own party with iron fist. His dictatorial tactics and the corrupt manner he ran the government and the scandals after scandals during his rule. The manipulative manner he imposed his ideologies. His imposed rules and laws were ideological not evidence based. His rule was alien to this country and undemocratic going against all the principles that this country was founded and stands. His exclusiveness versus inclusiveness adopted by Trudeau.

What extreme right wing views, I would like to hear this one. The media said harper was and it turned out he was not. Time for you to look at the facts instead of reusing the media talking pts. And waht scandals. Trudeau has had more scandal in the last 2 yrs then harper had in 10. And is trudeau nopt shoving his ideas down people's throats?

Edited August 30, 2017 by PIK

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, PIK said:

What extreme right wing views, I would like to hear this one.  

I don't think Harper was 'extreme right' but I can see some issues that he picked up on that were on the right side of the spectrum.  Are you really surprised ?

[-TSS-]

When there is a system where two parties alternate in power two consecutive terms of one party in power is optimal and it only wins a third term if the alternative is for some reason totally unelectable. That was the case with the British Tories in relation to their Labour-party.

When the Labour-party had reformed themselves they won a landslide. After three terms of them people were in turn tired of them and switched back to the Tories. And so and so it will go on.

[PIK]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think Harper was 'extreme right' but I can see some issues that he picked up on that were on the right side of the spectrum.  Are you really surprised ?

Like what mike? Being tougher on criminals? Trying to keep the crud out of this country? Not putting the country into a huge debt hole? what?

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, PIK said:

Like what mike? Being tougher on criminals? Trying to keep the crud out of this country? Not putting the country into a huge debt hole? what?

Calling immigrants crud?  Really? Do you still want me to explain what people see as 'right wing' now, or are we done with this topic?

[PIK]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Calling immigrants crud?  Really? Do you still want me to explain what people see as 'right wing' now, or are we done with this topic?

I said crud as in people that should not be allowed in this country. Most of the illegals, if came thru the proper channels would have been sent back, now we are handing out health cards and telling them to come back in 6 months. The silly season has to end, before everything gets fucked up. And there is many on the left that agree with what I said. That is why trudeau is one and done. So do you and your ilk have no respect for our borders and laws or even the country itself? So how about you and citizen answer my questions and quit deflecting, you sound like trudeau.

Edited August 30, 2017 by PIK

[OftenWrong]

 

1 minute ago, PIK said:

I said crud as in people that should not be allowed in this country. Most of the illegals, if came thru the proper channels would have been sent back, now we are handing out health cards and telling them to come back in 6 months. The silly season has to end, before everything gets fucked up. And there is many on the left that agree with what I said. That is why trudeau is one and done. So do you and your ilk have no respect for our borders and laws or even the country itself? So how about you and citizen answer my questions and quit deflecting, you sound like trudeau.

The left cannot stop extrapolating one statement into another. It is as though the limbic region of their brains were cranked up, while the grey matter has been suppressed. One should do a study, by dissecting their brains.

[PIK]

3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

The left cannot stop extrapolating one statement into another. It is as though the limbic region of their brains were cranked up, while the grey matter has been suppressed. One should do a study, by dissecting their brains.

It already has been done and the answer to it all, is liberalism is a disease. lol

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, PIK said:

1. So do you and your ilk have no respect for our borders and laws or even the country itself?

2. So how about you and citizen answer my questions and quit deflecting, you sound like trudeau.

1. I didn't say that, and I haven't defended Trudeau either so don't refer to me as "ilk".  

2. It's your questions on Harper we're trying to answer but if you call immigrants - even disallowed immigrants - "crud" it's hard for me to answer "What did Harper do that is right wing ?".  Maybe his environmental record is something that you can see as non-centrist as plenty of Conservative parties have put more focus on the environment.

Sorry to break your little heart, there, but I don't understand this idea that all ideas are centrist. It reveals an ignorance about what 'centrist' means.  Let me ask you - do you think Disney movies are 'left wing' ?

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, PIK said:

It already has been done and the answer to it all, is liberalism is a disease. lol

Ok, there it is.  Well, then the real answer is Harper was a centrist and anyone who opposed him was just crazy.  Now, you're happy.

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

The left cannot stop extrapolating one statement into another.  

Right, because they're crazy right ?  Why even talk to them right ?  

I try to bring people into reasonable political conversation and I'm rewarded by retarded statements like "liberalism is a disease".  If you ever see me saying "conservatism is a disease", put me in a diaper or shoot me or something, I'll be done.  If you hate liberals, then try not talking to them.  I talk to conservatives all the time, and some of them can even talk back reasonably...

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Right, because they're crazy right ?  Why even talk to them right ?  

I try to bring people into reasonable political conversation and I'm rewarded by retarded statements like "liberalism is a disease".  If you ever see me saying "conservatism is a disease", put me in a diaper or shoot me or something, I'll be done.  If you hate liberals, then try not talking to them.  I talk to conservatives all the time, and some of them can even talk back reasonably...

Its not you, it's just the zany-ness of your extrapolations. That's where the initial accusation really lies, and it gets exasperating to constanty defend something you did not mean or say. Many immigrants were still allowed in under Harper.

Edited August 30, 2017 by OftenWrong
added context

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 Many immigrants were still allowed in under Harper.

The zanyness is asking what is so right-wing, while simultaneously denying that there's any validity to a liberal mindset.  You either want to discuss or you don't.  Auguste started a perfectly reasonable topic, I suggest we go back to that and move on.

[Michael Hardner]

On 8/28/2017 at 4:00 AM, August1991 said:

Mulroney's Legacy

1. He gave us a free trade agreement.

2. He gave us the GST.

3. He tried to change UI.

4. He tried to change our Constitution.

======

Harper's Legacy

1. He got rid of the penny.

2. He said "Désormais... "

3. He changed our hate speech law.

4. He tried to change the Senate.

===

Am I missing something?

Mulroney is far enough in the rearview mirror to give a good assessment of what he did, so I agree with your points on him just based on memory.

Harper discarded a couple of big liberal initiatives, notably signing on to Kyoto and the Kelowna accord, and also refrained from an austerity approach to the 2008 crash and kept the economy going during that time.  You might also note that they continued iterating security approaches that have been in place by Western governments since the 9/11 attacks.

Nothing mind-shattering from either man, nor do I expect anything that different from the current PM.

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, PIK said:

What extreme right wing views, I would like to hear this one. The media said harper was and it turned out he was not. Time for you to look at the facts instead of reusing the media talking pts. And waht scandals. Trudeau has had more scandal in the last 2 yrs then harper had in 10. And is trudeau nopt shoving his ideas down people's throats?

You seriously have t ask about Harper government scandals?  A book can be written about them.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You seriously have t ask about Harper government scandals?  A book can be written about them.

I don't agree that Trudeau or Harper have had scandals to any significant degree.  The biggest scandal in memory was the Liberal sponsorship scandal under Chretien - since then it's been small potatoes at the federal level.

[CITIZEN_2015]

There were multiple scandals the manner in which his own office (PMO) and people close to him or to his office conducted themselves during his government not just one.

[August1991]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

...

Harper discarded a couple of big liberal initiatives, notably signing on to Kyoto and the Kelowna accord...

....

Michael, I agree. But even you use the word "discard". Agreed, Harper stopped/discarded.

=====

Mulroney rolled back the change. He created the GST and, heck, Free Trade. Other than our criminal code on free speech, Harper never did that.

I'm not a Team A defender of Mulroney - but Mulroney also rolled forward apartheid.

Progressive, Conservative, Forward, Backward....

==========

Justin Trudeau now defends Free Trade. John Turner in 1988 did not. 

IMHO, federal Liberals change with/follow perceived opinion; they are practical, true democrats.

Edited August 31, 2017 by August1991
add

[August1991]

http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2653709009