The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

Goddess · April 21, 2017

A closer read answered my own question, haha

Quote

Hossein Askari, an Iranian-born professor of International Business and International Affairs at George Washington University, said Muslim countries used religion as an instrument of state control. He said: “We must emphasise that many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination.

His reasoning is kinda weird and circular - Islamic countries are not practicing true Islam, but the West is....which to me..... would make those Western values....but he is saying they are not....??

Edited April 21, 2017 by Goddess

dialamah · April 21, 2017

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

A closer read answered my own question, haha

His reasoning is kinda weird and circular - Islamic countries are not practicing true Islam, but the West is....which to me..... would make those Western values....but he is saying they are not....??

I think he is pointing out that Islamic values are not so different than Western values.

Goddess · April 21, 2017

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think he is pointing out that Islamic values are not so different than Western values.

But how are they "Islamic" values when it's mainly Western countries practicing them?

It seems to me that he is appropriating Western values and claiming them as exclusively Islamic, yet at the same time saying the majority of Muslim countries do not practice Islamic values......the more I think about it, it's a very odd article. I think he did the opposite - he just showed that Islamic values are actually very different than Western values. He's saying "These are Islamic values, although they are not practiced by Muslims, they are practiced by Westerners." Very odd.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Goddess

kactus · April 21, 2017

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

A closer read answered my own question, haha

His reasoning is kinda weird and circular - Islamic countries are not practicing true Islam, but the West is....which to me..... would make those Western values....but he is saying they are not....??

It makes perfect sense what he says...

Religious leaders use religion as a tool to push their agenda. They ate like the good old Mafia back in old Italy where religion is used as a disguise for corruption. Just like the mafia some muslim leaders according to him are using religion to pursue their own agendas which is different from what that religion should be.

blackbird · April 22, 2017

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

I think he is pointing out that Islamic values are not so different than Western values.

Can anyone see why a Muslim might make that claim? Of course there will be those gullible souls who will swallow that and then support Islamic immigration.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

I think he is pointing out that Islamic values are not so different than Western values.

2 hours ago, kactus said:

It makes perfect sense what he says...

Religious leaders use religion as a tool to push their agenda. They ate like the good old Mafia back in old Italy where religion is used as a disguise for corruption. Just like the mafia some muslim leaders according to him are using religion to pursue their own agendas which is different from what that religion should be.

Quote

Any evidence that religious leaders are "using religion as a tool"? Ever thought they might actually believe what they are preaching?

blackbird · April 22, 2017

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

I think he is pointing out that Islamic values are not so different than Western values.

Practicing Islam entails following the Five Pillars. These are certain rituals one must do for example praying five times a day. Fasting at a certain time. Travelling to Mecca once in a lifetime if possible. These rituals are required just for the sake of following a man-made ritual. Christians do not or should not be praying as a ritual. I think Jesus spoke against that. Muslims must prostrate themselves to the east , toward Mecca, the holy site, according to Islam. But there are many other practices they don't necessarily tell you about such as female genital mutilation, where they forcibly cut a young girl's genitalia. Over 100 million have this done in certain countries. Also, women must be covered and in some places not go out without a husband or chaperone. What about the value of a woman compared with a man? Does he say anything about that?

Once when I was in the Trans Canada Highway in Manitoba, I pulled off for a rest. Shortly after I stopped, a man stopped on the road allowance on the other side of the highway, got out, and spread a carpet on the ground, then knealt down on it and started praying. First time I ever saw someone do that.

Christianity is based on the Bible which was completed about 2000 years ago and the Quran was written contrary to the Bible's command to write nothing new. If Muslims really believed the Bible was a holy book from God, why would they reject that warning in the Bible against receiving another holy book? Of course I could the same question of the Mormons.

Edited April 22, 2017 by blackbird

dialamah · April 22, 2017

39 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Can anyone see why a Muslim might make that claim? Of course there will be those gullible souls who will swallow that and then support Islamic immigration.

Any evidence that religious leaders are "using religion as a tool"? Ever thought they might actually believe what they are preaching?

Religious and political leaders have a long history of using religion as a tool to manipulate people. If you think otherwise, you are naive.

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

But there are many other practices they don't necessarily tell you about such as female genital mutilation, where they forcibly cut a young girl's genitalia.

FGM is a cultural practice, not an Islamic one. It's practiced by Muslims, Christians, and "others" throughout Africa and the Middle East. Even the Beta Isreal sect practiced it until the 1990s - along with their Christian and Muslim neighbors in Ethiopia. So when statistics say, for example, that 82% of Egyptian women have suffered FGM, they 82% of all women, Christian and Muslim. It has also been practiced at various times in other parts of the world, including England and America briefly in the mid-1800s. It was thought to be useful for women who didn't like sex, didn't like their husband or even just talked back.

As for your other comments, religious people rarely make much sense when they're doing what they think God is telling them to do.

dialamah · April 22, 2017

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

But how are they "Islamic" values when it's mainly Western countries practicing them?

It seems to me that he is appropriating Western values and claiming them as exclusively Islamic, yet at the same time saying the majority of Muslim countries do not practice Islamic values......the more I think about it, it's a very odd article. I think he did the opposite - he just showed that Islamic values are actually very different than Western values. He's saying "These are Islamic values, although they are not practiced by Muslims, they are practiced by Westerners." Very odd.

If the Quran says "Muslims must be just", then wouldn't that make Justice an Islamic value? I think he's saying that "These are Islamic values, although they are not being practiced by the governments in Islamic countries.

There are a lot of corrupt governments in the world; we don't normally assume that just because the government is corrupt that the people living in those countries lack values of justice or mercy or honesty. Or maybe you do?

Anyway, I agree with what you said previously - yearning for justice and opportunity aren't specifically Western or Islamic values - they're human values.

blackbird · April 22, 2017

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Religious and political leaders have a long history of using religion as a tool to manipulate people. If you think otherwise, you are naive.

FGM is a cultural practice, not an Islamic one. It's practiced by Muslims, Christians, and "others" throughout Africa and the Middle East. Even the Beta Isreal sect practiced it until the 1990s - along with their Christian and Muslim neighbors in Ethiopia. So when statistics say, for example, that 82% of Egyptian women have suffered FGM, they 82% of all women, Christian and Muslim. It has also been practiced at various times in other parts of the world, including England and America briefly in the mid-1800s. It was thought to be useful for women who didn't like sex, didn't like their husband or even just talked back.

As for your other comments, religious people rarely make much sense when they're doing what they think God is telling them to do.

I concede that there are religious leaders who do use religion as a tool. But not all. There are many bible believing ministers who actually believe what they are preaching and put in long hours working on their sermons and doing other good works.

According to Wikipedia, the practice of FGM is practiced mainly in a number of northern African countries. Some christians in Africa practice it as well. It is not taught in the Bible. It is not practiced by Christians today in the west as far as I know. I don't think it was practiced historically by christians. Africa seems to have problems with poverty, lack of education, and some continuing heathen practices, FGM being one.

Edited April 22, 2017 by blackbird

blackbird · April 22, 2017

36 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If the Quran says "Muslims must be just", then wouldn't that make Justice an Islamic value? I think he's saying that "These are Islamic values, although they are not being practiced by the governments in Islamic countries.

There are a lot of corrupt governments in the world; we don't normally assume that just because the government is corrupt that the people living in those countries lack values of justice or mercy or honesty. Or maybe you do?

Anyway, I agree with what you said previously - yearning for justice and opportunity aren't specifically Western or Islamic values - they're human values.

I met a man once who worked on a contract in Saudi Arabia decades ago. He was riding in a car with a Muslim and expressed concern that the Muslim was driving on the wrong side of road in dangerous places. The Muslim told him there is no point in worry because if is time to die we will die. It is all in Allah's hands.

Yes, we see the justice system in Saudi Arabia that executed 50 or 100 people a year or two ago, many for questionable things. We see the justice when people are sentenced to prison for years for speaking out against the government on social media or some other medium. We see the justice when people in recent years have had their hands or heads chopped off in a public square in some countries. We see the justice in Pakistan when a Muslim woman converted to christianity is sentenced to death for blasphemy. Great human values!

Edited April 22, 2017 by blackbird

blackbird · April 22, 2017

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Religious and political leaders have a long history of using religion as a tool to manipulate people. If you think otherwise, you are naive.

FGM is a cultural practice, not an Islamic one. It's practiced by Muslims, Christians, and "others" throughout Africa and the Middle East. Even the Beta Isreal sect practiced it until the 1990s - along with their Christian and Muslim neighbors in Ethiopia. So when statistics say, for example, that 82% of Egyptian women have suffered FGM, they 82% of all women, Christian and Muslim. It has also been practiced at various times in other parts of the world, including England and America briefly in the mid-1800s. It was thought to be useful for women who didn't like sex, didn't like their husband or even just talked back.

As for your other comments, religious people rarely make much sense when they're doing what they think God is telling them to do.

It is a cultural practice but it is mainly practiced in northern African Muslim countries. Check Wikipedia. The Quran does not teach it although there is apparently a place in one of the hadiths that recommend it. It is practiced for several reasons to do with control of girls, keeping them virgins, reducing their desire for sexual activitiy. All inhumane and barbaric. Many of those northern African countries are lawless, lack civilized government, have terrorist groups, massive poverity, civil wars, etc.

dre · April 22, 2017

Hahahaha.

Just got back after a break for a while, and read through this thread. Funny stuff... I dont think one single thread in MLW history has had so much retarded hyperbole.

"The illegal immigrant invasion"

"Destroying our civilization"

"Attacking our culture"

"The liberal media conspiracy to destroy the very fabric of our existance"

Then it devolves into a discussion about which of the sick religions of that putrid maggot Abraham, is worse.

Good times!

dre · April 22, 2017

On 4/18/2017 at 4:06 PM, Argus said:

I said in another thread there is no economic case to be made for immigration and no one has yet managed to contradict me. The enthusiasm for immigration from the left has nothing whatsoever to do with economics. As I posted earlier, when the Economic Council of Canada was asked if greater immigration would boost the economy they replied that other reasons would have to be found to justify that.

Let me put it this way. If all immigrants to Canada came from the UK would the Left in Canada be nearly so enthusiastic about immigration, and would the Riight be nearly so opposed? (leaving out the certainty that immigrants from the UK would enjoy much better economic success here).

You WERE contradicted in that thread and had absolutely no answer for it. Just a bunch of hyperbole, conspiracy theory and nonsense.

dre · April 22, 2017

On 4/19/2017 at 10:16 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Very simple: ban abortion and non-white immigration and the white race is saved. All you have to do is convince more than .1% of the population that are white nationalists to get on board with this, change the constitution and so on.

The real fun will come once the nationalists get their way "stop letting darkies in to destroy my culture", and they realize it still wont matter. There's too many of them hear already, and their numbers will grow even if the border is shut down... The conversation then will turn to how to "deal with" them.

dre · April 22, 2017

On 4/18/2017 at 3:36 PM, Michael Hardner said:

On 4/18/2017 at 2:48 PM, Argus said:

Kevin O'Leary is, I think an 'open' personality type. He flies around the world constantly and seems to delight in it, rarely staying in the same place for long. Trudeau is much the same, also an "open" personality type. And I think this explains their enthusiastic support for immigration.

I disagree. They have in common that they both ascribe to economic orthodoxy and that is what explains their immigration stance.

This is exactly right. Economic orthodoxy IS what drives immigration. The prevailing economic model in the west is growth economics. Countries try to attain a slow steady and consistant rate of growth.

Here's a look at Canada's population growth for the last few decades.

Since 1965, look how straight that line is... Doesnt matter if Conservatives or Liberals are in charge the line is almost dead straight. If all the xenophobes on here are so worried about immigration then for god sakes make some babies. Stop values having more cars and houses than children.

The reality is if Canadas birth rate declines immigration will increase and vice versa.

People on here go on and on an on about these immigrants threatening our white European culture, but WE are the threat to ourselves. What do you think is going to happen to a culture where families have less than 2 children on average? Eventually there will be nobody. The last two white european nationalists will have one child and the kid will jerk off on the internet until he dies alone.

blackbird · April 22, 2017

32 minutes ago, dre said:

Hahahaha.

Just got back after a break for a while, and read through this thread. Funny stuff... I dont think one single thread in MLW history has had so much retarded hyperbole.

"The illegal immigrant invasion"

"Destroying our civilization"

"Attacking our culture"

"The liberal media conspiracy to destroy the very fabric of our existance"

Then it devolves into a discussion about which of the sick religions of that putrid maggot Abraham, is worse.

Good times!

34 minutes ago, dre said:

Hahahaha.

Just got back after a break for a while, and read through this thread. Funny stuff... I dont think one single thread in MLW history has had so much retarded hyperbole.

"The illegal immigrant invasion"

"Destroying our civilization"

"Attacking our culture"

"The liberal media conspiracy to destroy the very fabric of our existance"

Then it devolves into a discussion about which of the sick religions of that putrid maggot Abraham, is worse.

Good times!

Guess you must be one of the 'Open" types described in the subject article. Glad you enjoyed it all anyway. What would possess you to call Abraham a putrid maggot though? Seems to me he was a famous patriarch of much of civilization and a good man.

SpankyMcFarland · April 22, 2017

11 hours ago, Argus said:

But if your beliefs are colored by your emotional social values and you believe what you want to believe then you will refuse to accept what the other person says. And most people fall into that category.

The evidence has a way of seeping in over time, though. For example, in places like France and Sweden the ground is definitely shifting.

dre · April 22, 2017

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Guess you must be one of the 'Open" types described in the subject article. Glad you enjoyed it all anyway. What would possess you to call Abraham a putrid maggot though? Seems to me he was a famous patriarch of much of civilization and a good man.

Look we can agree to disagree... But to me a person that plans to burn his son alive because a ghost inside his head told him too is a little messed up. But a person who actually has the gall to make that child carry the wood himself that he would be burned alive with? That's just gawd damn gross.

Couldn't he at least have carried the wood for the poor little guy? I mean if you're going to burn a child alive is that too much to ask?

Never mind that god himself asked him to do it, then at the last minute said "nawwww just kidding man!". What the hell kind of omnipotent being does that? I guess the kind that destroys an entire species (except for two) and millions of other species by flooding out their planet, or destroying cities full of innocent people because a couple of guys had butt sex somewhere.

blackbird · April 22, 2017

3 minutes ago, dre said:

Look we can agree to disagree... But to me a person that plans to burn his son alive because a ghost inside his head told him too is a little messed up. But a person who actually has the gall to make that child carry the wood himself that he would be burned alive with? That's just gawd damn gross.

Couldn't he at least have carried the wood for the poor little guy? I mean if you're going to burn a child alive is that too much to ask?

Never mind that god himself asked him to do it, then at the last minute said "nawwww just kidding man!". What the hell kind of omnipotent being does that? I guess the kind that destroys an entire species (except for two) and millions of other species by flooding out their planet, or destroying cities full of innocent people because a couple of guys had butt sex somewhere.

God did talk to Abraham and perhaps was testing his faith. Many of the writers of the Bible died as martyrs for what they saw and believed. Nobody would die if it was phony or a lie.

dialamah · April 22, 2017

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

God did talk to Abraham and perhaps was testing his faith. Many of the writers of the Bible died as martyrs for what they saw and believed. Nobody would die if it was phony or a lie.

Yes, people are willing to die for what they believe in. But dying for something doesn't give credibility to that something.

Michael Hardner · April 22, 2017

Let's stop drifting the thread folks...

Argus · April 22, 2017

17 hours ago, Goddess said:

But how are they "Islamic" values when it's mainly Western countries practicing them?

One of the things Jonathan Haidre pointed out was how willing people were to be convinced of what they wanted to be convinced of. That went for scientists, too. My guess is this person decided what 'islamic values' were based on his own sense of moral values, and then decided that western countries best emulated them. But that is merely HIS interpretation of what Islamic values are. And that interpretation is clearly different from the Muslim world at large, else we'd see gender equality through the Muslim world, which we most definitely do not. In fact we don't find it anywhere in the Muslim world.

And I note she never answered your original question. Because the only way of doing what you suggest is values screening and she's opposed to that.

Argus · April 22, 2017

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

If the Quran says "Muslims must be just", then wouldn't that make Justice an Islamic value?

The Koran's talk about being just and fair is intended for the treatment of Muslims, not infidels

dialamah · April 22, 2017

21 hours ago, Argus said:

Yes. Clearly. If 100,000 people apply to immigrate to Canada from the UK, Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden and Finland combined we can only grant 12,322 permission to come here. The visa allocations for the middle east, Asia and Africa are much higher than for Europe. Nairobi was given 5346 visas for immigrants last year, which is more than Rome (3777) even though Rome is also the processing centre for other countries, including Greece.

2

So it occurs to me to ask - how many people applied in Rome vs Nairobi? According to this site, Canada does focus on immigrants who will be an economic benefit to Canada. If Kenya is a terrible place to live and Italy isn't, wouldn't it make sense that more Kenyans would want to leave and that accounts for the difference in numbers? And given the points system Canada uses that focuses on education and work experience - could it be that the Kenyan immigrants are just as economically viable as the Italian ones?

Argus · April 22, 2017

11 hours ago, dre said:

You WERE contradicted in that thread and had absolutely no answer for it. Just a bunch of hyperbole, conspiracy theory and nonsense.

I was not. Oh, maybe you argued that it was, but you, like the other SJWs here, have never been able to present a coherent argument in favour of immigration, not showed any economic evidence in support. You favour immigration because immigrants are different and non-white. If they were all white anglos you'd quickly lose interest and fasten your mind on some other shiny object.