EVIDENCE FOR GOD

[blackbird]

8 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Ok fair enough. One question however, why do you participate in discussion forums? Do you see them as not really discussion, but a stage upon which to proselytize?

The subject is "Evidence for God", which I have discussed at length and will continue to do so.   So the answer to your question is both to argue in favour of the evidence in favour of God and sharing the central message of the Bible.   Sharing the truth or the gospel is a central part of the teaching of the Bible.  You call it proselytizing, which has a kind of negative connotation, as if what is put forward is somehow sinister or false.   Salvation is a central message of the Bible.  It is the good news and is beneficial to the person who believes it.

Edited December 31, 2017 by blackbird

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The subject is "Evidence for God", which I have discussed at length and will continue to do so.   So the answer to your question is both to argue in favour of the evidence in favour of God and sharing the central message of the Bible.   Sharing the truth or the gospel is a central part of the teaching of the Bible.  You call it proselytizing, which has a kind of negative connotation, as if what is put forward is somehow sinister or false.   Salvation is a central message of the Bible.  It is the good news and is beneficial to the person who believes it.

It's only evidence for God for those who believe in God and think they have to have evidence as well as faith.  It isn't actual evidence.  As I don't believe in God, I think it's evidence that everything came into existence without one.

[blackbird]

53 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's only evidence for God for those who believe in God and think they have to have evidence as well as faith.  It isn't actual evidence.  As I don't believe in God, I think it's evidence that everything came into existence without one.

Do you have any evidence at all for your claim?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Do you have any evidence at all for your claim?

The fact it all exists without there ever having been a God is evidence enough for me. 

[blackbird]

Just now, bcsapper said:

The fact it all exists without there ever having been a God is evidence enough for me. 

So you are resting on an assumption without any evidence?  How did it all begin or where did everything come from?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you are resting on an assumption without any evidence?  How did it all begin or where did everything come from?

Anyone who believes in God is making assumptions without any evidence.  I'm just doing the same, as I don't.  I figure we all ought to be able to use the  same evidence.

Edited December 31, 2017 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

11 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Anyone who believes in God is making assumptions without any evidence.  I'm just doing the same, as I don't.  I figure we all ought to be able to use the  same evidence.

If you figure we ought to be able to use the same evidence, why don't you use the same evidence I use?  The creation is one huge piece of evidence.  The sub atomic particles are governed by laws of physics, correct?  Who created the sub atomic particles?   Who created the laws of physics that govern how the particles operate?  Who created the laws that govern nuclear fusion, not that I know what it is, but it must be some complex interaction between energy and particles, right?  These are not even biological things, so have nothing to do with the dubious theory of evolution.   Yet, they operate according to strict principles of physics, right?  Where did the energy, the particles, the laws that govern them all come from?  These things are all so precise and the laws must be so precise that there is no flexibility on how they operate.  Only an intelligent designer could have made it all possible.  To me that is evidence.  Real evidence. 

Consider the spectrum of light.  There is a wide range of light rays from the visible to the invisible.  Is light some form of energy?  I am told it has a wavelength so it must travel well at the speed of light, roughly 186,000 miles per second.  Who created the light waves?  Is it energy?  Maybe it has energy built in.  Some of it is visible and some invisible such as the rays beyond the human range of vision.  Then there are ultra violet rays, infra red rays and each having it's own wavelength.  The wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency of the wave I am told.  So the shorter the wavelength, the higher the frequency per second, correct?   How was all this designed to be precisely acting as it does?  It must have had a designer or creator which made to operate in a certain way, correct?  How else would one explain it's existence?  Radio waves is another wave, but is a different frequency that light.  But are radio waves the same kind of thing as light waves?   Is it some kind of energy  that travels at the same speed roughly 186,000 Mile per second?   If radio and light waves travel at the same speed, would we conclude they are the same kind of energy?  Are they even an energy?  

What about gravity?  What is that?  We know it is invisible and we know it exists because we can feel it pulling us down.  But why?  What is happening?  What is it?  Who can give me some answers?  This is an amazing orchestrated system that seems to work together to make the universe what it is.  So these various energies, rays, waves of energy, light, radio waves, gravity forces all work together to make things what they are.  So should we all just throw our hands up in the air and say I dunno it was a huge accident that occurred somewhere at sometime that brought it all into place?  Is that what you're telling me?

I didn't mention it but gravity is another huge issue.  Isn't gravity what keeps the moon circling the earth in a certain orbit so it doesn't fall to earth and destroy everything or drift away out into space?  Isn't gravity what keeps each planet in it's orbit circling around the sun in an orderly fashion?  What about the energy from the sun that heats the earth and makes everything grow, enabling life to exist and thrive?  It must be just the right amount to give us the seasons as the angle of earth changes through the year to give us spring, summer, fall, and winter.  Seems quite well organized.  So life can then follow it's pattern.  The trees and vegetation and animals live by the seasons and do different things in different seasons.  It seems to be set up to operate on a certain pattern.  Why?  How did it happen?  Was it an accident too?  Was everything just a pure accident?  Seems like one huge amazing accident if you go by that theory.  But since there is so much to it if you care to describe everything that is happening, it would take an infinite number of accidents to happen to create where we are now.  How likely or possible is that? 

Edited December 31, 2017 by blackbird

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

If you figure we ought to be able to use the same evidence, why don't you use the same evidence I use?  The creation is one huge piece of evidence.  The sub atomic particles are governed by laws of physics, correct?  Who created the sub atomic particles?   Who created the laws of physics that govern how the particles operate?  Who created the laws that govern nuclear fusion, not that I know what it is, but it must be some complex interaction between energy and particles, right?  These are not even biological things, so have nothing to do with the dubious theory of evolution.   Yet, they operate according to strict principles of physics, right?  Where did the energy, the particles, the laws that govern them all come from?  These things are all so precise and the laws must be so precise that there is no flexibility on how they operate.  Only an intelligent designer could have made it all possible.  To me that is evidence.  Real evidence. 

Consider the spectrum of light.  There is a wide range of light rays from the visible to the invisible.  Is light some form of energy?  I am told it has a wavelength so it must travel well at the speed of light, roughly 186,000 miles per second.  Who created the light waves?  Is it energy?  Maybe it has energy built in.  Some of it is visible and some invisible such as the rays beyond the human range of vision.  Then there are ultra violet rays, infra red rays and each having it's own wavelength.  The wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency of the wave I am told.  So the shorter the wavelength, the higher the frequency per second, correct?   How was all this designed to be precisely acting as it does?  It must have had a designer or creator which made to operate in a certain way, correct?  How else would one explain it's existence?  Radio waves is another wave, but is a different frequency that light.  But are radio waves the same kind of thing as light waves?   Is it some kind of energy  that travels at the same speed roughly 186,000 Mile per second?   If radio and light waves travel at the same speed, would we conclude they are the same kind of energy?  Are they even an energy?  

What about gravity?  What is that?  We know it is invisible and we know it exists because we can feel it pulling us down.  But why?  What is happening?  What is it?  Who can give me some answers?  This is an amazing orchestrated system that seems to work together to make the universe what it is.  So these various energies, rays, waves of energy, light, radio waves, gravity forces all work together to make things what they are.  So should we all just throw our hands up in the air and say I dunno it was a huge accident that occurred somewhere at sometime that brought it all into place?  Is that what you're telling me?

I didn't mention it but gravity is another huge issue.  Isn't gravity what keeps the moon circling the earth in a certain orbit so it doesn't fall to earth and destroy everything or drift away out into space?  Isn't gravity what keeps each planet in it's orbit circling around the sun in an orderly fashion?  What about the energy from the sun that heats the earth and makes everything grow, enabling life to exist and thrive?  It must be just the right amount to give us the seasons as the angle of earth changes through the year to give us spring, summer, fall, and winter.  Seems quite well organized.  So life can then follow it's pattern.  The trees and vegetation and animals live by the seasons and do different things in different seasons.  It seems to be set up to operate on a certain pattern.  Why?  How did it happen?  Was it an accident too?  Was everything just a pure accident?  Seems like one huge amazing accident if you go by that theory.  But since there is so much to it if you care to describe everything that is happening, it would take an infinite number of accidents to happen to create where we are now.  How likely or possible is that? 

I don't know.  Some postulate the existence of an infinite number of universes, in which case it would be very likely.  Either way, more likely than a God.

That's to me, of course.  Obviously not to you.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I don't know.  Some postulate the existence of an infinite number of universes, in which case it would be very likely.  Either way, more likely than a God.

That's to me, of course.  Obviously not to you.

You didn't answer or address any of the many evidences I pointed out.  No explanations how all these things came about.  But just you don't think God created it.  No evidence to the contrary; just no to God.  So it is not a question of the evidence, but of the will to not believe.  A simple bias you might say.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

You didn't answer or address any of the many evidences I pointed out.  No explanations how all these things came about.  But just you don't think God created it.  No evidence to the contrary; just no to God.  So it is not a question of the evidence, but of the will to not believe.  A simple bias you might say.

The problem with science is, it doesn't work on faith.  I have to wait for people to figure things out and then tell me, and I have to hope to understand it.  So I do.  I don't simply say "God did it", because it seems reasonable and I really like the idea of going to Heaven.  If humans last long enough I suppose they will eventually figure everything out.  There's no reason whatsoever why we should have done so by 2018.

[?Impact]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

Who created the sub atomic particles?   Who created the laws of physics that govern how the particles operate?  Who created the laws that govern nuclear fusion, not that I know what it is, but it must be some complex interaction between energy and particles, right? ...

Only an intelligent designer could have made it all possible.  To me that is evidence.  Real evidence.

No, that is speculation at the grandest of scale - zero evidence. To make an assumption that a "designer" is required is not evidence, it is day dreaming. Of course the Bible thumpers ignore the greatest of all conundrums, who designed the designer. You are relying on the FM theory - if I don't understand something it must be F*ken Magic.

21 hours ago, blackbird said:

You call it proselytizing, which has a kind of negative connotation, as if what is put forward is somehow sinister or false.   Salvation is a central message of the Bible.  It is the good news and is beneficial to the person who believes it.

What you were arguing before was negative, you were denigrating the Roman Catholic Church, and by extension all Catholics. It may be against your particular beliefs, but it is not for hundreds of millions of others.

Salvation is great news - if and only if it is true. Otherwise it is false hope. As you correctly pointed out, religions like the Catholic Church have exploited that hope to fill their pocketbooks and to justify crimes against others including murder.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

No, that is speculation at the grandest of scale - zero evidence. To make an assumption that a "designer" is required is not evidence, it is day dreaming. Of course the Bible thumpers ignore the greatest of all conundrums, who designed the designer. You are relying on the FM theory - if I don't understand something it must be F*ken Magic.

What you were arguing before was negative, you were denigrating the Roman Catholic Church, and by extension all Catholics. It may be against your particular beliefs, but it is not for hundreds of millions of others.

Salvation is great news - if and only if it is true. Otherwise it is false hope. As you correctly pointed out, religions like the Catholic Church have exploited that hope to fill their pocketbooks and to justify crimes against others including murder.

Denigrating is another word which implies unreasonable criticism.  I have plenty of biblical reasons for disagreeing with the dogmas of Rome.  Yes, I understand hundreds of millions of people follow it, but that alone does not mean I should not criticize or disagree with their teachings.  I have had Catholic friends in the past whom I have debated with, but still remain cordial friends.  Like any of the world's false religions, the people are exploited and are the ones who pay.  If you want to read some interesting books which are available online for free to read, Google Avro Manhattan.   He passed away now but in his lifetime, he has contributed greatly to the knowledge about Rome and what they have been doing.  A couple of his books are "The Vatican Billions" and if I recall something like The Vatican in World Politics.  I read the one about the part Rome played getting the U.S. into the Vietnam War.,  another interesting book.  Or the Vatican Holocaust.   Of course salvation is great news and it is true.

You dismissal of the evidences I mentioned ignore that fact that those kinds of things simply could not have happened by accident.  I'm not sure how you reason that the various physical things I mentioned could come about without a creator.  Even such basic things as light and radio waves and the whole spectrum of light waves.  It just had to have a Creator.  There is no other explanation for it.  Neither is there an explanation for how the sub atomic particles and energy came into being apart from a Creator. 

Questioning who created the Creator can only be answered by saying God by definition is eternal and infinite in power.  He was not created.  He simply always was God.  I know that probably will not satisfy you, but all I can say in response is to study the King James Bible (1611) Authorized Version.  You want some kind of proof but the only proof God has given is the creation and His written revelation to mankind.

[taxme]

On 12/31/2017 at 3:00 PM, ?Impact said:

No, that is speculation at the grandest of scale - zero evidence. To make an assumption that a "designer" is required is not evidence, it is day dreaming. Of course the Bible thumpers ignore the greatest of all conundrums, who designed the designer. You are relying on the FM theory - if I don't understand something it must be F*ken Magic.

What you were arguing before was negative, you were denigrating the Roman Catholic Church, and by extension all Catholics. It may be against your particular beliefs, but it is not for hundreds of millions of others.

Salvation is great news - if and only if it is true. Otherwise it is false hope. As you correctly pointed out, religions like the Catholic Church have exploited that hope to fill their pocketbooks and to justify crimes against others including murder.

Wake up everybody will you. This has to be all just a part of some kind of computer game made to appear so real to us earthlings, and we all get to play little characters in that game, and when your time is up, you get deleted, and another character takes your place just like we see and sometimes play those kinds of games on the internet. 

That is how how all of a sudden poof, the computer was turned on, and magically our world is turned on again for the pleasure of the computer master that controls this worldly game.

Makes sense now, doesn't it?  Let's just hope this is not our day to get deleted.  

[GostHacked]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:00 PM, blackbird said:

Questioning who created the Creator can only be answered by saying God by definition is eternal and infinite in power.  He was not created.  He simply always was God.  I know that probably will not satisfy you, but all I can say in response is to study the King James Bible (1611) Authorized Version.  You want some kind of proof but the only proof God has given is the creation and His written revelation to mankind.

Proof.....  this pen I hold wards off tigers. And it actually works, I don't see any tigers here in Ottawa.

You cannot say 'here is the universe which is evidence God created it and God exists'.

[?Impact]

37 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

 I don't see any tigers here in Ottawa.

This was spotted just off County Rd 19 in Wendover.

[blackbird]

57 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Proof.....  this pen I hold wards off tigers. And it actually works, I don't see any tigers here in Ottawa.

You cannot say 'here is the universe which is evidence God created it and God exists'.

I don't have to say it.  God said it:

"1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

Psalm 19:1-6

Interesting that this Psalm tells that the greatness of God as Creator is declared in the creation itself, not by speaking audibly in man's words.  But the creation speaks to us in it's amazing creation itself.  Everything that exists tells us God created this thing and that thing, creature or human, mountain, or ocean, river, or lake, whatever we are looking at.

Edited January 4, 2018 by blackbird

[GostHacked]

The book was written by man. If god was that good, he would have written the book himself.

[Topaz]

Ok, people I'm going to tell u something and u tell me  your opinion. Some of u know my hubby died in the car coming back from a medical CT Scan. A couple days before, he said he needed to tell me something  because he wasn't sure if he was going to beat the skin cancer. What he talked what he wanted  for a funeral and etc, then he said, I don't  if I will reach heaven but I've  have loved u forever and protected u and if I do reach heaven, I will try to do the same.  Well, about 4 months later, I was out driving in my town and I came to an intersection and I looked BOTH ways, I started to go across the street and as soon as I hit the gas pedal I message came to me, Topaz break!! ( naturally,  my real name was said) I  hit the brake pedal and a very small car  went pass in front of me. I was still on my side of the street , so I didn't hit the car, but the point I  am trying to make is ... I NEVER saw the car coming. I consider myself a good and safe driver and yes, I was shaken and the only thing I can believe is, I have 2 guarding Angels now. I do believe in a higher power and there is so much we don't know.

[taxme]

On 1/3/2018 at 4:38 PM, ?Impact said:

This was spotted just off County Rd 19 in Wendover.

What a cute puddy cat. 

[taxme]

On 1/3/2018 at 5:36 PM, GostHacked said:

The book was written by man. If god was that good, he would have written the book himself.

That is why what is written in the bible cannot be totally agreed with or taken serious. When man touches anything he seems to always somehow screws most things up. But hey. 

[taxme]

On 1/3/2018 at 4:44 PM, blackbird said:

I don't have to say it.  God said it:

"1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

Psalm 19:1-6

Interesting that this Psalm tells that the greatness of God as Creator is declared in the creation itself, not by speaking audibly in man's words.  But the creation speaks to us in it's amazing creation itself.  Everything that exists tells us God created this thing and that thing, creature or human, mountain, or ocean, river, or lake, whatever we are looking at.

So, why or what is god waiting for to come back from wherever he is and save us all from the bloody mess on earth today,and which has been happening on earth since time began? When will we ever see peace on earth? Maybe the only peace we will ever get to know maybe is probably when the day we die. Then we will all live or rest in peace if we know anything at all when that time happens. When you die you may just die and that is it. How will you even know if a god exists if you are no more. Just wondering. 

[DogOnPorch]

So God created this entire Universe so that we could look at it from our backwater Local Group of galaxies...from a tiny rock while waiting for the freakin' Hereafter?

Yeah...no.

We can SEE further than the Earth/Sun is old. In the beginning...lol.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

So, why or what is god waiting for to come back from wherever he is and save us all from the bloody mess on earth today,and which has been happening on earth since time began? When will we ever see peace on earth? Maybe the only peace we will ever get to know maybe is probably when the day we die. Then we will all live or rest in peace if we know anything at all when that time happens. When you die you may just die and that is it. How will you even know if a god exists if you are no more. Just wondering. 

The Bible does have the answers to those questions.  What you believe or accept on this subject will first of all depend on what you are willing to consider and believe concerning the Bible.  But a more urgent question was examined by one the foremost legal minds.

I would like you to consider this question examined by a professor of law, Dr. Simon Greenleaf, who thought the whole thing was a hoax.

Whether the christian faith is fact or fiction rests on whether Jesus Christ actually rose from the dead.  This question has been studied in depth by a man who was a skeptic but one of the greatest legal minds. 

I give part of it and the link for the rest.

quote

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is either ...
the greatest event, or the greatest fraud — in history!

 

Did Jesus Christ actually rise from the dead?

 

Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Greenleaf concluded that according to the jurisdiction of legal evidence the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the best supported event in all of history! And not only that, Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ! What changed his mind? What evidence did Dr. Greenleaf encounter that so drastically turned him around? What facts did he discover that he could not rationally ignore? In order to answer that, let's go back to that scene nearly 2,000 years ago. That eery night in the garden of Gethsemene, as a blood-thirsty mob came and arrested Jesus Christ. He was brought before Pilate, and there in plain view, Jesus Christ was spit upon, cursed, he was laughed at, whipped, beaten. He was branded a blasphemer. And He was sentenced to die by the most extreme, shameful form of capital punishment ever devised — crucifixion. Galatians 3:13 reads, "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree". Jesus Christ died a curse. He died as a criminal. He died in open shame and disgrace. In the eyes of the world, Jesus Christ died a total disgrace! And there stood His apostles — in stunned unbelief. Here was their hope. Here were 11 men that had forsaken all and followed this man. They believed in this man for 3 years. Can you imagine what was going on in their minds? Didn't He heal the sick? Didn't we see Him walk on water? Didn't we see Him raise people from the dead? Didn't we see Him still the raging storm? And to end like this? THAT NIGHT, THERE STOOD 11 DEFEATED AND CONFUSED MEN! They had given up everything for naught. And then to die like He did. Beaten. Smitten. Humiliated. Guilty. Blasphemer. A complete disgrace!   And Mark 14:50, says, "And they all forsook him, and fled". There was the apostle Peter, the one who boasted, just days earlier, "Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee." (Matthew 26:35) There he was that night, standing in the mob, defeated, confused, and hurt. Jesus was dead! He was crucified as a blasphemer! One of the women saw Peter and said, "you were one of them, you was with Jesus of Nazareth". The Bible says "he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak." (Mark 14:71) Three times Peter denied the Lord, cursing and swearing, "I know not this man".   "And they all forsook him, and fled!"   BUT SOMETHING HAPPENED! Something happened to that small band of frightened and humiliated men. . . Less than two months later — they went back into Jerusalem boldly preaching, at the threat of death, that — JESUS CHRIST WAS ALIVE! Listen to Peter in Acts 2,: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs. . . ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. . . THIS JESUS HATH GOD RAISED UP, WHEREOF WE ALL ARE WITNESSES."   What transformed these fearful and confused men into fierce, bold lions?   Acts chapter 4:18-19, reads, "And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye." And verse 20 reads, "For we cannot but speak the things which WE HAVE SEEN AND HEARD".   What had these men seen? What had these men heard? What was it that beatings, threatenings, jail, torture and even death could not silence? In Acts 5, they put in jail and beaten — and verse 41 says "And they departed. . . rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name".   What had these 12 men seen that they would eventually die a horrible death for?   Friend, there's only one event in the history of this universe that could explain such a change.   THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! One theory suggests the apostles fabricated the resurrection. Two major problems: One, If the body of Jesus Christ was available, you'd better believe, the Roman authorities would have paraded His body for all to see. Christianity was spreading like a wild fire! And nothing could have quenched that flame quicker than the body of Jesus Christ! An article, suggesting Jesus faked His death and resurrection, appeared in the prestigious British Journal of the Royal College of Physicians. The article makes the assertion, "the whole episode was planned by Jesus and his followers. . . that death would be feigned so that early removal from the cross might be secured." Do you know the problem with that — if the resurrection of Jesus Christ was not true — there were 11 men that knew it! Remember, friend — THESE MEN WERE EYEWITNESSES! They were there!   "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were EYEWITNESSES. . ." Luke 1:2 "That which was from the beginning, which we have HEARD, which we have SEEN WITH OUR EYES, which we have LOOKED UPON, and our HANDS HAVE HANDLED. . ." 1 John 1:1 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty." 2 Peter 1:16 And these men went so far as seal their testimony with their blood! They died a horrible and martyrs death!   FOR A LIE. . . KNOWING IT WAS A LIE! There is no way, these 12 men could have all been deceived. For this reason — these 12 men not only died for a lie — and here is the catch — THEY KNEW IT WAS A LIE!   If the resurrection of Jesus Christ a lie — THEY KNEW IT! You can not find a group of 11 men in the history of this universe who forsook all, were beaten, were jailed and even went so far as die for a lie — KNOWING it was a lie!   IT IS IMPOSSIBLE! Michael Green, principal of St. John's College, Nottingham, writes concerning the apostles, ". . . You could imprison them, flog them, kill them, but you could not make them deny their conviction that on the third day he rose again." Dr. Greenleaf wrote, "IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD!"   And then there's the man called Saul of Tarsus. Saul of Tarsus thought Jesus was a false messiah, a fake, a blasphemer. And to exterminate Christianity totally, became his passion! The Bible describes him:   "As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison." (Acts 8:3) "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, . . ." (Acts 9:1) Saul of Tarsus was one of Christianitys' most rabid persecutors. One day traveling the dusty road to Damascus, Saul burning with vengeance, with documents authorizing him to capture all the followers of Jesus. But on the road to Damascus something happened to Saul of Tarsus. . .   "And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest". (Acts 9:3-5) And on the road to Damascus, the greatest conversion in history took place! For Saul of Tarsus, among the greatest enemies of Jesus Christ, that ever lived — became the Apostle Paul — THE GREATEST CHRISTIAN THAT EVER LIVED!   What happened to this man? What could so transform this man, that he completely dedicated his life to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ? And was later beheaded at Rome in 67 A.D. for his faith in Jesus Christ.   There is only one possible explanation — THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! Gilbert West and Lord Lyttleton, two Oxford students, believed Christianity was a "tale gone mad" and they determined to refute the Christian faith. Lyttleton resolved to disprove the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, and West would refute the resurrection of Jesus Christ. They figured a careful, rational, examination of the evidence would easily disprove the Christian faith. But after examining the evidence — they both separately came to the opposite conclusion! Lyttleton concluded that Saul of Tarsus did, in fact, convert to the Apostle Paul through Jesus Christ. And Gilbert West concluded that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was among the best established facts in all of history! West went on to write a book entitled, "Observations on the History and Evidences of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ". Professor Thomas Arnold, former chair of history at Oxford, and author of the famous volumes, History of Rome, was skillfully educated in the study of historical facts. Professor Arnold, stated, "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is PROVED BY BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE of every sort, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." After investigating the evidence of the resurrection, Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England, stated, ". . . there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true." To deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ you have to close your eyes to the overwhelming facts of history.   And friend that's a very serious thing to do If Jesus Christ actually rose from the dead — what He said about "after death" is not something to take lightly! And Jesus Christ warned of a place called hell — over and over! He mentioned hell eight times more than heaven! In Luke 16:23, Jesus described a man that had died, and Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,. . ."   Jesus said plainly — the man was in hell! Jesus went on to describe the man, in verse 24, ". . . for I am tormented in this flame."   Friend, Jesus Christ believed in a place of fire and torment called hell!   Unquote   http://av1611.org/resur.html

Edited January 6, 2018 by blackbird

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, taxme said:

So, why or what is god waiting for to come back from wherever he is and save us all from the bloody mess on earth today,and which has been happening on earth since time began? When will we ever see peace on earth? Maybe the only peace we will ever get to know maybe is probably when the day we die. Then we will all live or rest in peace if we know anything at all when that time happens. When you die you may just die and that is it. How will you even know if a god exists if you are no more. Just wondering. 

Briefly to summarize from rough memory and may not be exactly how it will be.

The last days are already here.   Wars, kingdom rising against kingdom.

A push toward one world government or globalism is now in progress.  A new world order will develop.  That is what the world is heading toward now.  Jesus is prophesied to return and remove all believers before the last seven  year reign of the anti-Christ begins. This is referred to as the rapture. Those remaining will be in for terrible times. If one becomes a believer during this time, he may be martyred for refusing to take the mark of the beast.  (a mark or computer chip in his right hand or forehead).

The new world order will begin at some point, financial systems will collapse.  An anti-Christ will head the one world government.  Money will be abolished and everyone will who is around at that time will have to take a mark, possibly a computer chip implanted in the right hand or forehead.  Money will be gone.  Nobody will be able to buy or sell without this mark (or computer chip) in his/her right hand or forehead.  Believers in Jesus should not take the mark or implant.  They will be beheaded.

It will be as in the days of Sodom and Gomorah.. People will not have natural affections any more.  There will be a lot of violence and drug use.

There will be all kinds of upheavals, natural disasters. 

Along with the anti-Christ, there will be a false prophet leading a false one-world religion.

The whole world will be against Israel.  There will be several campaigns that will eventually lead up to Armageddon.  Many nations will move against Israel.  There may be a nuclear war.  There will be battle over Jerusalem.  We see even today the controversy over Jerusalem.  The world's three main religions claim to have a stake in Jerusalem.   Jerusalem always has been a focal point of great conflict and in the last days will be the focal point.   These things are described in Revelation.  Leaving out some events, after seven years, the Lord will return to earth and destroy Israel's enemies.   The Lord will return to earth at Mount of Olives, just outside Jerusalem.   Then the Lord will establish rule over the earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years.  Believers will rule with Him.  After a thousand years a new heaven and a new earth will be created.

 

Ref.  Matthew Ch24,   2 Thessalonians ch2,   Revelation. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by blackbird

[?Impact]

6 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

We can SEE further than the Earth/Sun is old. In the beginning...lol.

Obviously you are not a scholar of Genesis. Firmament is star dust.