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1 hour ago, betsy said:

That's not the same with jihad of today, Charlie.    That's from the Old Testament (ancient time), and God had a reason why He tasked Israel to do as instructed - thus the people were particularly named and listed.  That would be taking the Torah out of context in order to suit the narrative you want to push.

 

Just answer the question:  cite JIHAD from the Torah.  The Torah and the Christian Old testament are very much alike.....it's not there.

Jihad in an Arabic word. Obviously you won't find it in books written in Hebrew and translated in English. But the essence of "fighting in the name of God" is the same. 

 

What reason has God to kill every living being in a certain city or tribe?  When barbarians from Mongolia used to conquer their enemy cities, they would create mountain of human skulls and enslave the women for trade, in the name of blue skies and unseen Gods. Muhammad killed a whole Jewish tribe in the name of God's word when the tribe violated a peace treaty. Crusaders claimed their wars were inspired by the word of God. It seems like rulers have been using God's name to empower themselves for centuries now. 

Edited by Charlie
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14 minutes ago, Charlie said:

Jihad in an Arabic word. Obviously you won't find it in books written in Hebrew and translated in English. But the essence of "fighting in the name of God" is the same.

Here is what jihad means:

 

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The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.

 

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

 

 

And....no, they're not the same.  Here is an explanation:

 

 

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How is the Islamic idea of jihad different from the violence in the Bible?

 

Also in Sura 9, “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29).

In addition to the teachings of the Koran, Muslims also follow the Hadith, a supposedly inspired record of Muhammad’s words and actions. The Hadith explains how Muhammad instructed his commander when sent out on an expedition, “When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to [accept] Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them” (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4294).

 

But what about the violence commanded by God in the Old Testament? Is that any different? The most often-discussed episodes of violence in the Old Testament are Yahweh’s command for the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites and take possession of the land He had promised Jacob’s children. When assessing these incidents, we must understand the context in which these events took place. The Canaanites were a brutal and wicked culture that frequently engaged in incredibly decadent behavior. As Christian author Norman Geisler put it, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”

By ordering the destruction of the Canaanites, God enacted a form of corporate capital punishment on a people that had been deserving of God’s judgment for some time. God had given the Canaanite people over 400 years to repent (
Genesis 15:13–16). When they did not, the Lord used the Israelites as an instrument of judgment on an evil and deeply depraved society.

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/jihad-Bible.html

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7 minutes ago, betsy said:

:lol:

The bible, and christianity have always been more evil, more murderous, bigger liars, Betsy. Witness the gigantic lies of 911. The illegal invasions after, the terrorist acts committed against Libya, Syria, the christian USA's torture chambers around the world, the US's long history of supporting vicious, right wing dictators.

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Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

...

Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

Defense Vs. Total Annihilation

"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.

Philip Jenkins, author of 'Jesus Wars'

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

 

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On 3/26/2017 at 1:36 PM, Altai said:

Anti-Islamic protesters attacked Quran during a meeting in Canada. Its not problem we have 10 billion other copies but the problem is this action is the outward appearance of a person's tendency to violence. So they are animating to destroy "Islam" by ripping a book. These persons are Anders Breiviks of the future. 

They should be detained and should be rehabilitated. 


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/03/23/ontario-schools-muslim-prayers_n_15568254.html

Still have yet to see a convincing argument for why the Quran should have the same rights as a human being and special protection afforded it by the law.

Still have yet to see how ripping up a book shows a person's "tendency towards violence" and how/why we can/should rehabilitate book-ripper-uppers.  (Amazing, too, that Islam's treatment and attitude towards women is defended here ad nauseum as being super-important to their culture, but it is repeatedly denied that the treatment and attitude towards women has anything to do with Islam's "tendencies towards violence" towards females.....)

Still have yet to see how ripping up a book = murdering almost a hundred people in cold blood.

Sorry, but I need more than just "Altai says so."

(Don't you hate it when kafirs don't just shut up and submit?)

Edited by Goddess
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7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Still have yet to see how ripping up a book = murdering almost a hundred people in cold blood.

Sorry, but I need more than just "Altai says so."

How have you missed the millions murdered because of a huge lie? 

How have you missed the millions murdered because of a phony war on terrorism?

If you need more than Altai, how about the the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS)? 

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Just now, hot enough said:

How have you missed the millions murdered because of a huge lie? 

How have you missed the millions murdered because of a phony war on terrorism?

If you need more than Altai, how about the the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS)? 

I see you agree with Altai that if a person rips up a Quran, they are exactly the same as a mass murderer.

You still have not explained how the 2 relate.  

In fact, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with any of my questions. :wacko:

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Hypocrisy is over dose. People are calling it as "discrimination" when a student requests not to attend some classes in the school.

The same people call it as "freedom of expression" when someone attack people's values, such as ripping apart a holy book and they dont call it "discrimination". 

 

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5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I see you agree with Altai that if a person rips up a Quran, they are exactly the same as a mass murderer.

That is terribly illogical. And you, I surmise, are a native speaker of English.

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You still have not explained how the 2 relate.  

 

Native speakers should frame their thoughts and words clearly, unless they are looking to deceive.

Quote

In fact, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with any of my questions. 

Puuuuleeezee! Are you suggesting that his man would be ripping a Quran and screaming at this meeting if 911 and all that it brought hadn't ever happened?

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2 minutes ago, Altai said:

Hypocrisy is over dose. People are calling it as "discrimination" when a student requests not to attend some classes in the school.

The same people call it as "freedom of expression" when someone attack people's values, such as ripping apart a holy book and they dont call it "discrimination". 

 

Ripping apart a Quran may be "disrespectful" (as would ripping apart a Bible, yes? Or is that different for you?) but it is hardly "discrimination."

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1 minute ago, hot enough said:

That is terribly illogical. And you, I surmise, are a native speaker of English.

I feel that equating ripping up a Quran with a mass murderer is illogical.  That's why I'm surprised you agree with the premise.

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Native speakers should frame their thoughts and words clearly, unless they are looking to deceive.

Hmmm....let me try again:  Altai has said that ripping up a Quran is the equivalent of murdering almost 100 people, as Anders Breivik did.  He/She/They do not explain how the two (I had typed the number "2" for brevity, but since you are confused, I will clarify it by typing the word  "two") can  possibly be likened.  I asked for clarification and you replied with some comments about 9/11 and other random unsubstantiated comments.

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Puuuuleeezee! Are you suggesting that his man would be ripping a Quran and screaming at this meeting if 911 and all that it brought hadn't ever happened?

Yes, I am.  I think a lot  of people are getting very frustrated with Islamic extremeists running around the planet killing people.  This has occured almost daily since 9/11.  You obviously feel that terrorism by Muslims is completely justified and are here to defend it in every comment you make.  I disagree.

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1 hour ago, hot enough said:

 And you, I surmise, are a native speaker of English.

 

 

What the heck is a,  "native speaker of English?" 

That would be how I imagine  Altai would be phrasing it....:lol:....are you from Turkiye too?

Edited by betsy
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2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I feel that equating ripping up a Quran with a mass murderer is illogical.  That's why I'm surprised you agree with the premise.

She did not equate them. She said that folks like that could become folks like Anders B. Not many do, thank dog, but the Quran ripper is definitely someone the police might watch more closely, or hold as a possible suspect. 

Quote

Hmmm....let me try again:  Altai has said that ripping up a Quran is the equivalent of murdering almost 100 people, as Anders Breivik did.  He/She/They do not explain how the two (I had typed the number "2" for brevity, but since you are confused, I will clarify it by typing the word  "two") can  possibly be likened.  I asked for clarification and you replied with some comments about 9/11 and other random unsubstantiated comments.

This is much better. Good writing skills are as important, even more important than verbal skills, given the physical disconnect. I explained, above, how there could easily and logically be a connection between the two. We've seen it all before and we are seeing it again. People being blamed for an event that they had no part of. The US is famous for doing this. If you were older and more knowledgeable you would understand.

 

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Yes, I am.  I think a lot  of people are getting very frustrated with Islamic extremeists running around the planet killing people.  This has occured almost daily since 9/11.  You obviously feel that terrorism by Muslims is completely justified and are here to defend it in every comment you make.  I disagree.

In such serious situations, exaggeration for emphasis isn't really appropriate. That would be every sentence except for your first and last. How can you ever advance something as ludicrous as you have when the count is in the high millions of Muslims killed because of deeply evil lies?

 

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Unworthy victims: Western wars have killed four million Muslims since 1990

 

Last month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million.

The 97-page report by the Nobel Peace Prize-winning doctors’ group is the first to tally up the total number of civilian casualties from US-led counter-terrorism interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The PSR report is authored by an interdisciplinary team of leading public health experts, including Dr. Robert Gould, director of health professional outreach and education at the University of California San Francisco Medical Center, and Professor Tim Takaro of the Faculty of Health Sciences at Simon Fraser University.

Yet it has been almost completely blacked out by the English-language media, despite being the first effort by a world-leading public health organisation to produce a scientifically robust calculation of the number of people killed by the US-UK-led “war on terror”.

Mind the gaps

The PSR report is described by Dr Hans von Sponeck, former UN assistant secretary-general, as “a significant contribution to narrowing the gap between reliable estimates of victims of war, especially civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and tendentious, manipulated or even fraudulent accounts”.

The report conducts a critical review of previous death toll estimates of “war on terror” casualties. It is heavily critical of the figure most widely cited by mainstream media as authoritative, namely, the Iraq Body Count (IBC) estimate of 110,000 dead. That figure is derived from collating media reports of civilian killings, but the PSR report identifies serious gaps and methodological problems in this approach.

For instance, although 40,000 corpses had been buried in Najaf since the launch of the war, IBC recorded only 1,354 deaths in Najaf for the same period. That example shows how wide the gap is between IBC’s Najaf figure and the actual death toll – in this case, by a factor of over 30.

Such gaps are replete throughout IBC’s database. In another instance, IBC recorded just three airstrikes in a period in 2005, when the number of air attacks had in fact increased from 25 to 120 that year. Again, the gap here is by a factor of 40.

According to the PSR study, the much-disputed Lancet study that estimated 655,000 Iraq deaths up to 2006 (and over a million until today by extrapolation) was likely to be far more accurate than IBC’s figures. In fact, the report confirms a virtual consensus among epidemiologists on the reliability of the Lancet study.

Despite some legitimate criticisms, the statistical methodology it applied is the universally recognised standard to determine deaths from conflict zones, used by international agencies and governments.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394

 

This is the norm, this has been the norm since WWII. Vietnam - Gulf of Tonkin lie over 3 million Vietnamese die; Korea US lies 3 plus million die; Indonesia US lies, a million die; Cambodia US lies US saturation bombs a million or more into graves, sets in place a genocide that kills another million or two; Nicaragua US lies 50,000 die, and this, below, is how they often die at the hands of the USA or USA proxies. 

 

Quote

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part II

CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

 

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1 hour ago, betsy said:

 

What the heck is a,  "native speaker of English?" 

That would be how I imagine  Altai would be phrasing it....:lol:....are you from Turkiye too?

If you do not understand that, Betsy, possibly you aren't a very knowledgeable native speaker of English. 

That exact phrase gives 18,700 hits in Google Scholar. Derivations of it produce well over a million. 

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9 minutes ago, hot enough said:

She did not equate them. She said that folks like that could become folks like Anders B. Not many do, thank dog, but the Quran ripper is definitely someone the police might watch more closely, or hold as a possible suspect. 

 

 

Mmmm....actually she did equate them:

Quote

So they are animating to destroy "Islam" by ripping a book. These persons are Anders Breiviks of the future. 

I understand it's difficult to have reading comprehension when you only see what you want to see and are blindly loyal to extreme Islam.

Quote

the Quran ripper is definitely someone the police might watch more closely, or hold as a possible suspect

.

Are you kidding me?  A possible suspect in what?  You seriously want a person who rips up a Quran to be held in prison?  

 

Good luck with the whole world domination thing......

Edited by Goddess
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1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Not interested in the truth, eh, Goddess? You would rather run around spreading malicious lies. When it gets so bad and your friends and neighbors start Muslim pogroms, are you going to be right in there?

I'm just not interested in supporting extreme Islam, as you are.

Knock yourself out, sweetie.

Edited by Goddess
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4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm just not interested in supporting extreme Islam, as you are.

Knock yourself out, sweetie.

But you are interested in supporting a much much more extreme and murderous Christianity/US/UK/... . Why?

Let's discuss the 2 million Muslims murdered since 911 versus your unknown number of "others". Or we could extend it back to 1990 when the count is up to 4 million. 

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18 minutes ago, hot enough said:

She did not equate them. She said that folks like that could become folks like Anders B. 

Boy, you sure  have a problem with comprehension.   Better read her OP again.


 

Quote

 

Altai

Anti-Islamic protesters attacked Quran during a meeting in Canada. Its not problem we have 10 billion other copies but the problem is this action is the outward appearance of a person's tendency to violence. So they are animating to destroy "Islam" by ripping a book. These persons are Anders Breiviks of the future. 

They should be detained and should be rehabilitated. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, hot enough said:

But you are interested in supporting a much much more extreme and murderous Christianity/US/UK/... . Why?

Let's discuss the 2 million Muslims murdered since 911 versus your unknown number of "others". Or we could extend it back to 1990 when the count is up to 4 million. 

Yes, yes....what is this?..... The 147th time you've posted the exact same comment on every thread, no matter what the thread is about.

We get it.  You think Islam is innocent and peaceful and Western society is the Devil.

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6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, yes....what is this?..... The 147th time you've posted the exact same comment on every thread, no matter what the thread is about.

We get it.  You think Islam is innocent and peaceful and Western society is the Devil.

It's not what I think that matters, G, it's the facts. 

Four million Muslims have been slaughtered because of lies - by well known liars, world class liars, that have murdered tens of millions more, and you want to change the subject.

Edited by hot enough
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