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Waterboarding. Is it really that bad?


sharkman

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On 1/27/2017 at 10:48 AM, cybercoma said:

Not to mention the long-term psychological consequences for the torturers and the fact that the United States has no moral high ground to be fighting terrorists when they engage in torture. I don't know about you, but if I knew a country was torturing Canadian citizens, I would want them levelled.

you mean like how our government has looked after all our soldiers with PTSD,and has rushed in all the aid they need to prevent more soldiers from dying....that kind of consequences..... 

you'd want them leveled, not sure what that means ? but it sounds serious ? do you want Iran leveled, they have tortured Canadians for months on end, then again there is Iraq, Jordan, Sudan, Libya, Somolia , UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt  ....all of them have tortured Canadians .What happened Cyber you really don't like Muslims do you.....

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3 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Clearly you don't understand what is meant by the term "literature"...    

No i get the term "LITERATURE", squid, but like you i don't give a rats ass what your literature says, just like how you totally disregarded my opinion..... I've seen the results personally, and i really don't care what your literature say , by so called experts, i seen hard as nails, military men broken down, and reduced to tears in a couple days..... by mild forms of torture..... that much i know, and if it can happen to them , im pretty sure it would work on your so called experts....Maybe your experts can check out these military schools, and it's training.....that's not going to happen, it flies in the face on what they are preaching..... 

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16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

No i get the term "LITERATURE", squid, but like you i don't give a rats ass what your literature says, just like how you totally disregarded my opinion..... I've seen the results personally, and i really don't care what your literature say , by so called experts, i seen hard as nails, military men broken down, and reduced to tears in a couple days..... by mild forms of torture..... that much i know, and if it can happen to them , im pretty sure it would work on your so called experts....Maybe your experts can check out these military schools, and it's training.....that's not going to happen, it flies in the face on what they are preaching..... 

 

Agree 100%....U.S. training pipelines included SERE training especially for pilots and other personnel at high risk for capture because of this reality.  

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On 2017-01-27 at 7:48 AM, cybercoma said:

Not to mention the long-term psychological consequences for the torturers and the fact that the United States has no moral high ground to be fighting terrorists when they engage in torture. I don't know about you, but if I knew a country was torturing Canadian citizens, I would want them levelled.

I would too.  Plus any country where adultery, blasphemy, homosexuality or apostasy was punishable by death.

Levelled!!!

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10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I would too.  Plus any country where adultery, blasphemy, homosexuality or apostasy was punishable by death.

Levelled!!!

 

Can't say I disagree with this sentiment, but what about the people who live in that country and who do not agree with torture, or death for adultery, blasphemy, homosexuality or apostasy?   Couldn't we just extract those people, and level the rest?   :)   

 

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Just now, dialamah said:

Can't say I disagree with this sentiment, but what about the people who live in that country and who do not agree with torture, or death for adultery, blasphemy, homosexuality or apostasy?   Couldn't we just extract those people, and level the rest?   :)   

 

I agree.  I just thought cybercoma was being a little extreme.

I would extract the people who do agree with it, level them, and leave the country for the rest.  Seems fairer, as the other way would leave the decent types with nowhere to live.

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Just now, bcsapper said:

I agree.  I just thought cybercoma was being a little extreme.

I would extract the people who do agree with it, level them, and leave the country for the rest.  Seems fairer, as the other way would leave the decent types with nowhere to live.

 

Good point.  If only it were that simple.   :(

 

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Waterboarding is torture. Its a method to force admission or disclosure through the stimulation of a sensation that causes a person to slowly suffocate/drown.

Torture by its basic and inherent definition is any debliverate or planned or knowing application on a person's body that causes pain.

The motive can be the person is a sadist and gets sexual pleasure or it can be to extract information that will not be disclosed consentually.

As a general rule the lack of consent and the pain, those two inter-connected components necessarily make it unethical.

In an ideal world we extract information consensually and if it can not be by consent, by methods preferably that cause no pain or duress.

In the real world, torture is used in many countries and cultures as the person inflicted pain is defined by social values that have deemed that person unworthy and not having sufficient human value to deserve not being pained.

Now in our Western societies  we argue  have evolved to the level where we now believe if we deliberately torture even for the best of reasons its wrong because it remains unethical and makes us indistinguishable from terrorists, criminals and sadists.

Some now argue while it is as a general rule unethical, if it saves innocent lives and only the person tortured is pained, the pain to that individual is a lesser evil than saving innocent lives and therefore the purpose (ends) justifies the means (torture to get info otherwise not available to save people).

Let's be real. Police, government enforcement agents  use torture or brute physical force to extract information. That is reality.

Any conventional Western army placed in a position of dealing with terrorism and preventing a terrorist act has used it.

In Iraq we had Bush-Chaney-Rumsfeld create a precedent where they contracted out the interrogation of Iraqis both soldiers and civilians to private civilians from Haliburton because the conventional IU S Army could not torture in the way these private contractors did without being charged with international war crimes.

The US deliberately avoided war crimes by using civilians and not their military to interrogate. The Bush regime re-wrote interrogation techniques to define waterboarding as not being considered torture in laws. In fact the US Supreme Court on 4 different attempts by Bush to pass laws saying waterboarding was not torture rejected such attempts.

Obama's tenure left that issue alone saying they considered waterboarding torture and therefore illegal. All NATO military forces except Turkey come from countries which define waterboarding as illegal.

It is well known Western nations sent known terrorists they captured to both Syria and Turkey for torture to get them to disclose info.

Prior to the Syria civil was, the US, Canada, Britain, France and Germany sent terrorists to Syria and Turkey for interrogation consisting of torture.

It is unrealistic to think despite Obama's being against waterboarding it did not continue during his regime. Its also naïve to think its not used widespread by intelligence counter-intelligence and military interrogation units across the world.

Its wide spread. Its been used in the Middle East by all nations in the Arab League, Israel, Iran, Turkey, China, Russia, North Korea. Human Rights groups report it across the world. Its a favourite tactic that was use din Argentina Brazil, Central America, Haiti, North Korea, on and on.

We know US officers against using it challenged Haliburton private contractors and CIA private contractors and  for many of those officers, their careers were ended.

We know Canadian soldiers returned from Afghanistan were well aware people were being tortured by people they were supposedly protecting.

Soldiers for the most part are honourable people and do not want to torture people and want to follow a code of ethical behaviour and when they see people wearing their uniform or claimed to be their allies or fighting on the same side engaging in unethical behaviour, it dehumanizes them and if they question it, the consequences can be horrible for them.

Because of conventional soldiers with ptsd, I take the position that we owe them and all conventional soldiers the right to know that we civilians must hold our politicians who order them and control them, to be accountable. I believe out of our respect for soldiers who put their lives on the line for us, we civilians must assure the politicians we elect don't place our soldiers in situations where they have to dehumanize themselves by torturing others if possible.

On this one I agree with Jesse Ventura. He has said, only an idiot would believe you don't use painful techniques in the heat of the moment if its to save lives but if you turn it into regular practice your conventional armed forces will eventually disintegrate like they did in Vietnam.

Iraq was a farse because the Bush Regime deliberately broke military law and conventional law and tried to create hybrid laws to exempt them from conventional treaties as to torture and war.

I don't agree with Trump on this. Then again you listen to him its clear-for him might is right. He gives no thought to the implications of torture and what it does long term to a society if they choose to use it.

I would argue torture should be a last resort in very rare situations.

 

Edited by Rue
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