CPC 2017: Bernier vs Alexander

[Charles Anthony]

Folks, 

Avoid thread drift. 

[Argus]

14 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Come on, this is bigotry against Quebecers. Shouldn't the best candidate get the job? 

Quebecers have, throughout this country's history, voted for the Quebecer, regardless of whether he was best or not. Why is that acceptable but me doing the reverse is bigotry against Quebecers?

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Omni said:

You really think so? I live in BC and I'll be damned if I can find a French speaker anywhere around here.

The problem in BC is finding an English speaker.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Omni said:

Leitch is probably as close to Trumpishness as you can get, you're right. But luckily I think even the conservative party is smart enough to discard her, and her "Canadian Values" BS. Otherwise JT probably wouldn't even have to come home from the Bahamas to win next time around.

Even though 70% of Canadians told a poll they support testing for Canadian values...

[-1=e^ipi]

I never said that it is acceptable for pro-Quebec bigotry. Nor have I said that Quebecers don't have significant over-representation in terms of the PM office or cabinet historically. But I still think that you should look at things on a case by case basis. So if the best candidate happens to be from Quebec, then they should get the position. Abolition of supply management is something that I think is a very good indicator in favour of Bernier in the same way it was for Martha Hall Findlay in the liberal leadership race (who isn't from Quebec).

[August1991]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:42 PM, Argus said:

I don't want yet another Quebec leader. Why is it every party leader has to be a Quebecer?

For the same reason that Donald Trump is a federal US president.

A civilized country has a leader from a broad spectrum of voters - in Canada, that means support in English and French Canada

[August1991]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:41 PM, Argus said:

On the CBC panel yesterday evening they said that their contacts in the party said O'Leary would be the man to beat, that their internal polling showed him far out front of everyone else. I have zero interest in Alexander, who is just another politician trying to play to ethnic voters by promising a big rise in immigration numbers.

CBC Panel - that's all you need to know.

If the CBC/CNN/MSM predicts something, you know it's wrong.

=====

Sorry, Argus. But the Conventional Wisdom is so wrong, so often recently. (I'm not saying that established knowledge is wrong.... )  

Edited January 20, 2017 by August1991

[Argus]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

For the same reason that Donald Trump is a federal US president.

A civilized country has a leader from a broad spectrum of voters - in Canada, that means support in English and French Canada

Quebecers don't consider themselves Canadians and they don't care what happens to Canada. Allowing our leader to be put forward from among their ranks every year simply because that's the guy THEY will support is collective insanity. Like other Quebec leaders, Trudeau will do what is in the best interests of Quebec, not Canada. 

[August1991]

On 1/20/2017 at 0:12 PM, Argus said:

Quebecers don't consider themselves Canadians and they don't care what happens to Canada. Allowing our leader to be put forward from among their ranks every year simply because that's the guy THEY will support is collective insanity. Like other Quebec leaders, Trudeau will do what is in the best interests of Quebec, not Canada. 

Argus, Quebecers consider themselves "Canadian" as long as other Canadians (you, for example) consider someone different is also Canadian.

Note to wacky Leftists: What is different?

[Argus]

8 hours ago, August1991 said:

Argus, Quebecers consider themselves "Canadian" as long as other Canadians (you, for example) consider someone different is also Canadian.

There is no emotional attachment to Canada on the part of most French Quebecers. They're here for the money. If Quebec discovered big oil reserves they'd separate the next day.

[Guest]

We'd be willing to chip in some of ours...

[Smallc]

I'm sorry, but you guys are deluding yourselves if you don't think that O'Leary has this in the bag.

[blueblood]

51 minutes ago, Smallc said:

I'm sorry, but you guys are deluding yourselves if you don't think that O'Leary has this in the bag.

I agree, O'Leary is very good at getting air time on all the media and social media.  

It is going to be a very divisive campaign and very dependant on the economy as Trudeau is a very likeable and media savvy prime minister.  

The other Tory candidates pissed away their chance at getting recognition.  I can remember Trudeau being quite effective at getting his name out there even though he has the famous last name.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Smallc said:

I'm sorry, but you guys are deluding yourselves if you don't think that O'Leary has this in the bag.

I suspect you are right. And if this was an open vote I have no doubt whatsoever you'd be right. But it's a vote only among Conservative Party members - unless he can convince thousands of newcomers to fork over their cash to join. Conservatives who are pro-life or who consider the military important, or care about immigration - or just don't want a ruthless corporate huckster without a shred of empathy for ordinary people in charge - will vote for someone else. But for that to work most of the current candidates need to quit so the remainder can stand out more.

O'Leary strikes me as very nearly a pure capitalist, and a pure capitalist doesn't care about people except insofar as some of them are of profit to him. The rest are just expenses.

[Derek 2.0]

On 1/17/2017 at 11:48 PM, August1991 said:

I reckon that it will become a choice between Alexander and Bernier. 

Mad Max is who I will likely vote for at my local riding level, but like Trump in the States, brash retail politics is what will be needed to take down Trudeau.........as I said last summer when the O'Leary rumors started to swirl:

 

 

Quote

As spoken to by Mr Wonderful himself, in ~4+ years time a capable and charismatic Tory leader will be able speak to Canadian voters and ask them if they are better off with the economic policies of Justin Trudeau and his billions of borrowed spending.....................if the Tories fail to select a well spoken and personable leader, regardless of the merits of their policies, we had might as well start another Tory leader thread for the 2023 election early.......simple as that.

 

The Tory race, like the GOP primaries, has too many voices drowning each other out, allowing an O'Leary with an established media presence to come up the middle.......though I hope Bernier wins, and the continued mini Trudeau scandals and piss poor economy could make it plausible for him to win, I still think Kevin O'Leary will win the Tory leadership, and could very well win the election in 2019.........Trudeau will have a record to defend and O'Leary will hammer him on the economy. I don't expect it to be pretty. 

Trudeau is either going to reverse himself on so many promises or let the economy sink even faster........Budgets don't balance themselves, and Trump is the Godzilla to the Trudeau Bambi........O'Leary is somewhere in between.

 

 

[blueblood]

41 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Mad Max is who I will likely vote for at my local riding level, but like Trump in the States, brash retail politics is what will be needed to take down Trudeau.........as I said last summer when the O'Leary rumors started to swirl:

 

 

 

The Tory race, like the GOP primaries, has too many voices drowning each other out, allowing an O'Leary with an established media presence to come up the middle.......though I hope Bernier wins, and the continued mini Trudeau scandals and piss poor economy could make it plausible for him to win, I still think Kevin O'Leary will win the Tory leadership, and could very well win the election in 2019.........Trudeau will have a record to defend and O'Leary will hammer him on the economy. I don't expect it to be pretty. 

Trudeau is either going to reverse himself on so many promises or let the economy sink even faster........Budgets don't balance themselves, and Trump is the Godzilla to the Trudeau Bambi........O'Leary is somewhere in between.

 

 

Bernier is a policy wonk who has as much charisma as a chair.  You need media savvy to take down Trudeau.  The media and liberal machine will eat mad max for dinner.  O'Leary knows how to play them like a fiddle and can brush off criticism.

bernier is good for a high level cabinet post but doesn't have the chops to manipulate the media and hammer Trudeau, he's too soft.

why any sane Tory would vote for bernier thinking he could knock off trudeau is living in fantasyland.

Edited January 22, 2017 by blueblood

[blueblood]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I suspect you are right. And if this was an open vote I have no doubt whatsoever you'd be right. But it's a vote only among Conservative Party members - unless he can convince thousands of newcomers to fork over their cash to join. Conservatives who are pro-life or who consider the military important, or care about immigration - or just don't want a ruthless corporate huckster without a shred of empathy for ordinary people in charge - will vote for someone else. But for that to work most of the current candidates need to quit so the remainder can stand out more.

O'Leary strikes me as very nearly a pure capitalist, and a pure capitalist doesn't care about people except insofar as some of them are of profit to him. The rest are just expenses.

O'Leary has a big theme with the economy and is wise to sluff things that are red meat for hard core Tory junkies such as immigration, abortions, and the military.  It's quite smart as he knows the issue of the economy is one of the few things that unite Canadians and is framing that issue.

if conservatives are that stupid to be making an issue out of things that don't matter compared to the economy which is affecting everyone then they deserve to lose.  Dion tried the carbon tax and lost, Ignatieff didn't offer anything and lost, however Trudeau pitched infrastructure spending to boost the economy and won.  The Tories tried to do identity politics against trudeau and got creamed.  Trump essentially won because of his pitch for the economy, something that is going straight over kellie leitch's head.

[Derek 2.0]

2 minutes ago, blueblood said:

O'Leary knows how to play them like a fiddle and can brush off criticism.

 

My point exactly

 

2 minutes ago, blueblood said:

bernier is good for a high level cabinet post but doesn't have the chops to manipulate the media and hammer Trudeau, he's too soft.

 

The same was said about Harper......until faced with Trudeau. The difference now, Trudeau himself is damaging the "brand" that he sold during our last election......if the economy continues to slip, and the media starts to turn on Trudeau (which I think they are), the Tories may not even need a populist persona like O'Leary to replace him.

[blueblood]

2 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

My point exactly

 

 

The same was said about Harper......until faced with Trudeau. The difference now, Trudeau himself is damaging the "brand" that he sold during our last election......if the economy continues to slip, and the media starts to turn on Trudeau (which I think they are), the Tories may not even need a populist persona like O'Leary to replace him.

Trudeau is much better at gaining support than one gives him credit for.  I remember hearing about Trudeau speaking at universities for over a decade to get his name and message out there.  Trudeau is still likeable and has massive name recognition.  What O'Leary brings to the table is far more than populism, it's a brand and a message of fiscal discipline to boost the economy.  Not only that O'Leary is a far better communicator than bernier.  O'Leary has himself all over the press twice a week.  Where is bernier?  The Tories picking bernier would be like the republicans picking mitt Romney to try and beat Obama and that was a train wreck.

[blueblood]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/trump-says-he-will-meet-with-pm-trudeau-begin-renegotiating-nafta-1.3252128

and then Trudeau decides to start tweeting...  

1st Rick Santorum chided Trudeau about how Trudeau will now be negotiating from weakness and now trudeau sends that tweet the same day that trump is talking about renegotiating nafta.  

The tory leadership candidates will have fun with that one...

[Smallc]

What's so bad about that tweet?

[blueblood]

37 minutes ago, Smallc said:

What's so bad about that tweet?

Once again Trudeau is caught taking sides in American politics.  It's unwise for him to blatantly and without prompting support protesters questioning trumps legitimacy and trumps dealings with women; especially when he wants to enter into negotiations with trump to try and preserve Canada's interests.  

Trudeau should have kept his trap shut even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the protesters making a very valid point.

[Smallc]

1 minute ago, blueblood said:

Once again Trudeau is caught taking sides in American politics.

Those protests happened in Canada as well, and were not only aimed at trump, but at reinforcing women's rights.  There's no evidence that he was referring to what was happening in the US.  In fact, since his tweet specifically mentions Canada, there is direct evidence to the contrary.

Trudeau is pretty much the only world leader that didn't say anything about Trudeau during the election campaign, even when prompted.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Smallc

[blueblood]

Just now, Smallc said:

Those protests happened in Canada as well, and were not only aimed at trump, but at reinforcing women's rights.  There's no evidence that he was referring to what was happening in the US.

That doesn't matter if there's hard evidence as Trudeau isn't in court.  

Often times perception is reality and as clearly shown in this day and age that's the case.  Trudeau better hope that he's insignificant enough for trump not to pay attention to him as it's perceived that Trudeau is openly supporting those who appear to be delegitimizing trumps presidency and that wouldn't fly in negotiations with that very person.

[Derek 2.0]

1 hour ago, blueblood said:

Trudeau is much better at gaining support than one gives him credit for.

Trudeau has peaked (granted a very high peak) by promising the Moon and won't be able to deliver on many of his promises....is he going to repromise to do all the stuff that that he didn't do? Trudeau, as I said, will have to campaign on his record and attempt maintain support..........if the economy is a dumpster fire in 2019, I doubt Trudeau will be gaining support.

 

1 hour ago, blueblood said:

Not only that O'Leary is a far better communicator than bernier.  

 

How so? I don't dispute O'Leary receives far more media coverage then Bernier, but how is he a better communicator? I'd be fine with Bernier debating an "ur--ummm---er" Trudeau in both French and English, defending his record and the economy........how will O'Leary sound against Trudeau in French?

1 hour ago, blueblood said:

The Tories picking bernier would be like the republicans picking mitt Romney to try and beat Obama and that was a train wreck.

 

Apples to oranges........Try Romney versus Obama versus a Saunders. Three parties aside, the then US economy was "rebounding" and the Tories have nowhere near as many people insurgents within the party like the GOP has with the Tea Party........Don't get me wrong, I think O'Leary would have a very good shot and if he became the leader of the party I would support him, until then, on principle I support Max