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Leah Remini's "Scientology" series


Goddess

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3 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Interesting about the psychologists. It is amazing to see someone you know become such a different person almost overnight. It's scary to think how vulnerable we all are if exposed to enough indoctrination. 

I was born and raised in it - 3rd generation.  So I don't fully understand how "normal" people get involved in cults.  I know the one I was in, they sort of "prey" on ones who experience a loss in life or are already struggling.  They give classes on how to pull people like that into the group and use their disillusionment with life against them.

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4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

On a personal level, I could see how that would work.  I knew someone who was in a religion that could isolate you from your social group and family if they kicked you out.  

That sort of intimidation/isolation of deserters or apostates isn't uncommon among some religious groups. Islam, it goes without saying... but the Mormons as well, and I recall reading about the Mars Hill evangelical church under Mark Driscoll being particularly vindictive against people who left.

But with Scientology, it's once step beyond, though... I recall seeing videos posted by somebody who left the Scientologists...

Scientology goon-squad in action:

"the Squirrel Busters"

There's lots more like this. You can google for "squirrel busters" or "Scientology harassment" and find lots more.

Here's another video filmed by the same guy, Marty Rathbun.  What I found striking about this is how closely the stuff the woman is saying mirrors the self-talk that people struggling with clinical depression deal with.  I have probably mentioned that I have dealt with clinical depression during my life, and the stuff the woman is saying-- "you're a failure", "you're an embarrassment", "nothing you do matters", etc, is exactly the kind of stuff I told myself at my lowest points. I don't know if this is just a bully who knows how to hit someone where it hurts, or if it's a calculated attack, but whatever it is I personally found this pretty upsetting.
"You're an embarrassment"

Personally I've never been interested in anything Leah Remini has done before in her career, but I think that what she's doing right now is epic and awesome.

 -k

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5 hours ago, Goddess said:

I was born and raised in it - 3rd generation.  So I don't fully understand how "normal" people get involved in cults.  I know the one I was in, they sort of "prey" on ones who experience a loss in life or are already struggling.  They give classes on how to pull people like that into the group and use their disillusionment with life against them.

Interesting; the congregation I was involved with had no classes on 'pulling people in'?    During meetings, there was some talk about how best to approach householders, but nothing that I would describe as 'preying' on others.   

So you were wondering how 'normal' people become involved in cults.   I was 16, estranged from my parents and not accepted by my peers.  My mother had studied with them off and on for years; I assumed she was interested, but I think what it really was is that she wanted someone to talk to.  Also, she'd met a couple of JW ladies in a very small town, all us kids played together and I think she really did consider them friends.   So when I was a bit lost and looking for connection, I turned to the JWs.   They gave me a sense of belonging, purpose, meaning.  That got me through high school, which was good, but also influenced me into an early marriage which is kind of a mixed blessing because I have kids from it.   Still, I wish I had believed in myself enough to try college instead of getting married.

I understand the way in which they kept apart from the world, discouraged interaction with 'worldly' people and declare themselves the sole keeper of the 'truth', and the intense patriarchy is cult-like behavior, but I never got the sense I was forced or even manipulated into anything.  I made a conscious decision to become involved, and when it stopped making sense to me, I felt as free to leave as I had felt joining.   Elders came by one day to let me know I was about to be disfellowshipped, unless I chose to start attending meetings again immediately.  I declined, and off they went.     I could be wrong, but I don't think they would have followed me to the next town, let alone the next province, if I'd moved.  I also didn't feel like I had to leave with virtually nothing, but maybe that was more to do with your ex-husband than the JWs themselves?    For me, leaving was relatively easy - no family to speak of, just friends and social support.    I did have nightmares about Armageddon and my kids dying for a couple of years afterward, and I still miss a friend I had - but compared to many, my trauma was minimal.   

I admit, I am intrigued by some of the differences in our experiences.  Was my congregation that much different than yours?    Was it that I was involved between 30 and 40 years ago, and the organization has become even more cult-like than it was?    I certainly don't feel I experienced the same pressure you felt, but whether its because of my personality or because the congregation really was different, or because I didn't have the added pressure a family would bring?   Maybe a combination of all three?   

But whatever the reasons, it sounds like you went through some hell, and I'm glad you found the courage to leave and make a better life for you and your kids.

 

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16 hours ago, dialamah said:

Interesting; the congregation I was involved with had no classes on 'pulling people in'?    During meetings, there was some talk about how best to approach householders, but nothing that I would describe as 'preying' on others.   

So you were wondering how 'normal' people become involved in cults.   I was 16, estranged from my parents and not accepted by my peers.  My mother had studied with them off and on for years; I assumed she was interested, but I think what it really was is that she wanted someone to talk to.  Also, she'd met a couple of JW ladies in a very small town, all us kids played together and I think she really did consider them friends.   So when I was a bit lost and looking for connection, I turned to the JWs.   They gave me a sense of belonging, purpose, meaning.  That got me through high school, which was good, but also influenced me into an early marriage which is kind of a mixed blessing because I have kids from it.   Still, I wish I had believed in myself enough to try college instead of getting married.

I understand the way in which they kept apart from the world, discouraged interaction with 'worldly' people and declare themselves the sole keeper of the 'truth', and the intense patriarchy is cult-like behavior, but I never got the sense I was forced or even manipulated into anything.  I made a conscious decision to become involved, and when it stopped making sense to me, I felt as free to leave as I had felt joining.   Elders came by one day to let me know I was about to be disfellowshipped, unless I chose to start attending meetings again immediately.  I declined, and off they went.     I could be wrong, but I don't think they would have followed me to the next town, let alone the next province, if I'd moved.  I also didn't feel like I had to leave with virtually nothing, but maybe that was more to do with your ex-husband than the JWs themselves?    For me, leaving was relatively easy - no family to speak of, just friends and social support.    I did have nightmares about Armageddon and my kids dying for a couple of years afterward, and I still miss a friend I had - but compared to many, my trauma was minimal.   

I admit, I am intrigued by some of the differences in our experiences.  Was my congregation that much different than yours?    Was it that I was involved between 30 and 40 years ago, and the organization has become even more cult-like than it was?    I certainly don't feel I experienced the same pressure you felt, but whether its because of my personality or because the congregation really was different, or because I didn't have the added pressure a family would bring?   Maybe a combination of all three?   

But whatever the reasons, it sounds like you went through some hell, and I'm glad you found the courage to leave and make a better life for you and your kids.

 

I'm sure you attended the TMS every week like I did. I called them "classes" because like most cults, JWs have their own lingo that others don't understand. It makes them feel special and keeps them apart from others. The TMS is a weekly meeting where we were taught how to speak to people (not bad in itself) and draw out their fears and problems and then taught how to use certain scriptures to get them thinking our way. (I also attended many a Pioneer School.) It did always feel like "preying" on people to me.

Yes, certain parts of my experience were due to my ex-husband. But he was supported in the things he did. You know how apostates and DFed people are viewed - so anything he did to me was considered "fair game" as Leah said in the show. Of course they don't call it Fair Game and it didn't get to the extent described in the show. At least not with me. But I know others suffered through this.

Having to leave family behind definitely makes it harder for most. Leah was fortunate that her family agreed to leave with her. That is very rare.

The pressure to meet their many high standards was very great for me. I was wracked with guilt and fear during my entire time as a JW and really never once felt I was good enough to be in the Paradise. Not all ex-JWs felt that pressure to the same degree but all say they felt some. 

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41 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm sure you attended the TMS every week like I did. I called them "classes" because like most cults, JWs have their own lingo that others don't understand. It makes them feel special and keeps them apart from others. The TMS is a weekly meeting where we were taught how to speak to people (not bad in itself) and draw out their fears and problems and then taught how to use certain scriptures to get them thinking our way. (I also attended many a Pioneer School.) It did always feel like "preying" on people to me.

Yes, certain parts of my experience were due to my ex-husband. But he was supported in the things he did. You know how apostates and DFed people are viewed - so anything he did to me was considered "fair game" as Leah said in the show. Of course they don't call it Fair Game and it didn't get to the extent described in the show. At least not with me. But I know others suffered through this.

Having to leave family behind definitely makes it harder for most. Leah was fortunate that her family agreed to leave with her. That is very rare.

The pressure to meet their many high standards was very great for me. I was wracked with guilt and fear during my entire time as a JW and really never once felt I was good enough to be in the Paradise. Not all ex-JWs felt that pressure to the same degree but all say they felt some. 

TMS, not sure what that is so either I never heard it or I've forgotten - please remind me. :)   I attended the Sunday meeting, and two Bible study meetings during the week; perhaps one of those is what you are referring to.   I never did go to Pioneer School, but I did think about doing that once I got out of high school. 

My ex-husband had an unfortunate habit of becoming romantically involved with the wives of Elders; this happened three times in about six years.  It did seem to me that there was a lot more concern over ensuring the Elders did not suffer any damage to their reputation, whilst our marital issues and my personal distress were secondary.   The women were put on private reproof, and forgiveness on my part was counselled, both for my husband and the women involved.   I did try the whole forgiveness thing and to be honest, it was easier to forgive the women than it was to overlook the feeling that I was considered to be at fault rather than the people who'd betrayed me.  No doubt the private talk was that I deserved it for marrying out of the faith.  Anyway, it was about six months after the last one that I invited my husband to move out and I stopped going to meetings.     My mother-in-law had to stop associating with me, but since I'd dumped her son it wasn't like we were going to be buds anyway.    I really did hate the patriarchy, though I didn't know what it was called at the time.   But it was very evident that the men were more important, more respected and more favored than women and that really bugged me.

Thinking back, I don't think I was ever truly invested because I had a plan:  after Armageddon, when Satan was to be cast into the abyss for 1000 years, that's when I would check out the whole 'immortality' thing.  If I was getting bored after 1000 years, when Satan was released for the final test of mankind I had every intention of 'failing' the test.  

My experience with them has persuaded me that people turn to and cling to religion because they need an external force to guide their actions.   They aren't able to set a path from within themselves, someone has to set it for them.   To me, most religious people are essentially afraid - they need an authority to tell them about the world and how to live in it.   Religion teaches people not to think critically, but to accept whatever is given them for answers, even more so than the general population.   I think some people find cults are very safe, in that sense - there is no doubt at any time about what someone should be doing or not doing; everything is very black and white.   Not only do they have all the right answers, without much thinking effort, they also get to believe they're specially chosen.   

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22 hours ago, dialamah said:

  To me, most religious people are essentially afraid - they need an authority to tell them about the world and how to live in it.   Religion teaches people not to think critically, but to accept whatever is given them for answers, even more so than the general population.   I think some people find cults are very safe, in that sense - there is no doubt at any time about what someone should be doing or not doing; everything is very black and white.   Not only do they have all the right answers, without much thinking effort, they also get to believe they're specially chosen.   

The jw's I know prior to being brainwashed were not big readers and rarely followed the news and not highly educated. I suppose that wouldn't apply to people born into a cult who are brainwashed from a very early age. 

Would that be true do you two think? 

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On 25/12/2016 at 3:52 PM, WestCoastRunner said:

The jw's I know prior to being brainwashed were not big readers and rarely followed the news and not highly educated. I suppose that wouldn't apply to people born into a cult who are brainwashed from a very early age. 

Would that be true do you two think? 

I think this is very true.  (In general, as there are a few JW converts from the academic world.)  That's why I always felt we "preyed" on people.

JWs STRONGLY discourage higher education, which seems to be OK with Scientology. I remember an "urban legend" that went around the JW world for awhile - that if you read the Awake magazine regularly, within X numbers of years (I heard 4 yrs and 7 yrs) it would be the equivalent of a university education. They are also huge deniers of evolution and have a history of giving out really bad medical advice.

I was always a huge reader and too much of a logical thinker, I was always in trouble as a JW, not matter how much I tried. Too many questions and not enough answers that made sense.

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Technically when a group has a high degree of control over you if its religious in ideology its a "sect", if its non religious, its a "cult".

Now in layman's terms we just call them all cults but here is the problem. There is no clear distinct line between a religion and some of these cults or sects.

Take for example the Salvation Army. No one would call it a "cult" but it is. The members wear a distinct uniform. They live separate and apart from mainstream society.

They live a very rigid and strict life. They subordinate themselves to a cause and leader.

They are in fact a cult but would anyone find them a problem?

Pretty hard to. In terms of charities they have the least amount of waste. Most of the money you give them will go to a charitable exercise and not overhead and we know what great things they do.

Then we get other cults or sects. So who determines when say the Catholic Church is not a large cult, but Scientology is? Why is one called a cult and the other simply a religion?

They both have secretive, unaccountable central organizations. There's power secrets within both- so who says one is b ad the other good?

I spent about 5 years counseling people exiting cults. In my day there were people calling themselves cult deprogrammers but there is really no such thing.

Former cult members would be hired by families to kidnap back family members from cults and "deprogram" them but I can explain why that didn't work well.

To start with any cult or sect to be a problem will have these common characteristics:

1-a leader who is unquestioned and has absolute power

2-supporters of 1 who can not be questioned and have absolute power over others

3-a system of organization run at multiple levels of progression where each level is kept unaware of the true powers of the level above it

4-a system of belief that controls who you can see, talk to, be related to, have a family with

5-a system that controls your every day functions and lifestyle and demands you subordinate all your income to the group's authority figure for collecting revenue

6-a system that controls when you eat, what you can eat, when you seep

7-a system that controls what you are to believe is true and untrue, good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable.

Now in regards to this thing called "brain washing" in fact psychologically a human can be put under the command and do the bidding of another human very easily, within 20 to 30 seconds actually if done right.

Most cults or sects will take you away on recruiting retreats where they control when you go to the bathroom, when you eat, what you eat, what you can think of and discuss and group pressure is used to get you to chant in unison and agree and not question but repeat back and accept without question.

This is called regression. By doing that you are brought back psychologically to the stage of a young child dependent on their parent's commands.

The cult's leaders recreate the role of unquestioned parent.

Fellow cult members become the new family replacing the old.

Cults or sects address the need of people to be part of a pack. People by nature are pack animals and social and feel empowered and safe in packs.

If at a stage in their life they feel in turmoil, uncertain, not in control, lacking purpose, cults make strong attractions offering them a way to find certainty, control, purpose.

Not all cults are religious. Technically if they are they are sects. Some of the most famous people cults mix religion with the worship of a human.

Nazism is a classic example of a cult where Hitler becomes the Messiah figure. Often cults and sects use uniforms and different kinds of uniforms to enforce the levels of authority.

The Masons are another classic example. So is Scientology, most organized religions, any political parties and causes.

There was a cult of personality used to get Justin Trudeau elected. In fact the techniques used during his election campaign complete with the hand on heart gesture are propaganda tools perfected by Joseph Goebels the propaganda Minister of Nazi Germany who recycled the Roman salute and instea dof  Hail Cesar the Heil Hitler chant.

The film techniques used showing Hitler holding babies and walking in crowds smiling and laughing at people are done today by Trudeau. There are election photo ops where he walks into the crowd and stands holding babies and giggling with young girls just as Hitler did.

There's a fine line between political movements and cults of all kinds.

There's a fine line between fusing or mixing religious with political dogma.

So when does a cult become harmful and who says so?

For me I would answer people in workshops saying, it is a problem when the person wanting to exit says so. Until they say so, its like someone who has alcoholism, until they feel they have a drinking problem, and want to do something about it, the breaking away from or exiting of the cult won't happen. The individual identity must resurface again from underneath the group control over it supressing its expression.

If you kidnap a cult member, and lock them in a room like deprogrammers did, and sort of engage in what often looked like an exorcism confronting the people, yelling at them, challenging them, what actually happened was the deprogrammer would create a Stockholm Syndrome effect. This is a psychological phenomena all cult g roups and pimps use. Where any human gains control over another  to the point where the person under control feels they can not break free, Stockholm Syndrome is then cultivated and what happens is the broken down person who no longer feels capable of making a decision for themselves now identifies with their tormentor, abuser cult leader, pimp and does what that leader wants.

This is why its so hard to break a prostitute away from a pimp, or a woman from an abusive mate, or convince a child they are not to blame for their being molested, or a cult member leaving their group. Such people lose their individual sense of self and it becomes, crushed, supressed and controlled by an external force, usuallhy a megalomaniac with a narcissistic personality who demands unquestionable devotion and total control over you in each and every way.

People who break with such relationships to do so meaningfully start on their own, something inside them reaches back out to them-I have seen it is  like a flame we all have burning inside us but some people feel has burned out when its just run down to a tiny flicker controlled by external forces-somehow people regain the flame and it burns again-why each person or Godess first chooses to come back to me is the riddle of eternal life and in each of us I believe it exists as unique as our fingerprints-its a life force within each of us we are born with and its manifested through free choice. If you don't exercise free choice it appears to disappear but free choice is always inside us even when we convince ourselves its not.

When  have counselled victims of such groups I will only tell you that the therapy is very very slow and the more trauma, the slower it is and its not about telling the person a thing-its about listening, not judging them and simply helping them realize there are choices, that they have choices and you help them identify the possible choices.

I have seen unspeakable things done to women, children, youth, people of both genders and I won't discuss it other than to say people can be talked into doing the most horrific of crimes against one another in groups. Groups have the effect on the frontal lobe of the brain drugs and alcohol does and that is to lower inhibitions and encourage people to act on impulses and do things they would otherwise never do. Rape, physical beating and killings, mutilations, lighting people on fire, kicking people to death,. torturing people, assisting in perverted rituals, etc., can all be brought on for want of a better word by what we call group hysteria or disinhibition caused by group peer pressure.

If I was one on one with say Godess, because I am a man, I would not engage in certain discussions and transfer them to a woman. I would do certain kinds of intervention designed to reassure them of existing laws, safety, and to reintroduce men as figures not to be feared but questioned and people who do NOT understand what it is like to be a woman but do understand basic emotions and the need for privacy.

With young men getting a young man to stop scratching himself until he's gone through to the bone, or to eat again, or to be able to close one's eyes to sleep, its tough. Its no different than soldiers with ptsd. Its no different than soldiers who return from a conflict zone where they have sen horrific things and now you just dump them back into a mundane life and say, carry on. It takes years to turn off their inner switches or what some call demons. Their bodies have been in a state of what is called hyper-vigilance-every ounce of blood in their body was pumping fast, their adrenalin constantly pumping producing steroids which then depleted the serotonin from the brain causing them to suffer from serotonin depletion also called depression. This depression is real. It needs medicine. Depression always comes with anxoiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, nightmares, it never comes alone. It comes in a cluster of phenomena unique to each person's chemical make up. A sound, smell, sight, taste, feeling of a particular texture can set off a shock or panic attack or flashback.

Some have these attacks so bad they get seizures or migraines or nose bleeds, wet their pants or defecate. Many find it difficult to eat or go the other extreme and over-eat. Some  become addicted to drugs and alcohol  or gambling. Everyone copes differently.

What causes people to join cults can be loneliness, a lack of purpose or meaning in life, or it could b e a genuine desire to want to  be a better person or do good.

In one sense armies and navies and military institutions are cults. They attract young idealistic people. When the reality of the true conflict zone kicks in there can be a sense of betrayal and a deep realization that humans are horrible people capable of things the soldier thought never possible and from his or her own fellow soldiers.

War and those who fight it had to join units that were in all intents and purposes cults. When the reality of death and violence kicks in, for many they lose faith and are never quite the same feeling God never existed or abandon them. I have no idea why some lose faith and others keep it.

I have no idea why some can not function outside their cults and commit suicide and others regain their lives.

I have no idea why prisons which create cult environments of personality destroy some but not others.

There is a lot we know and don't know about cults and group psychology and its effects on people.

Again while Wikepedia is not always accurate it does have a good article as a starting point on the subject:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmental_lists_of_cults_and_sects

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes, thank you, Rue. Very nicely put, as always :)

Have you read any of Steven Hassan's books? He was a former Moonie and I referred to his B.I.T.E model frequently when I was on the recovery forum. I even wrote an article using the BITE model, showing snippets from their own books and magazines to illustrate each point.

http://www.reveal.org/library/psych/shassan.html

 

 

Edit because the article above is not the one I wrote. I just included it to show what the BITE model is. I will try to find my article on the recovery forum, if anyone would like to see it. 

Edited by Goddess
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12 hours ago, Goddess said:

Yes, thank you, Rue. Very nicely put, as always :)

Have you read any of Steven Hassan's books? He was a former Moonie and I referred to his B.I.T.E model frequently when I was on the recovery forum. I even wrote an article using the BITE model, showing snippets from their own books and magazines to illustrate each point.

http://www.reveal.org/library/psych/shassan.html

 

 

Edit because the article above is not the one I wrote. I just included it to show what the BITE model is. I will try to find my article on the recovery forum, if anyone would like to see it. 

Yes. Its a model that I and others have read.  I personally think its a helpful guide.

 

 

 

Edited by Rue
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