Here we go again again with our PM.

Smallc · December 11, 2016

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Sunny days do not require warmth, but a strong economy does require good policies and access to markets.

Mexico has both, and now leads Canada for exports to the United States. Sunny Ways !

I've been to Mexico. I love it, and I'm going back in 30 days - it doesn't lead Canada in a whole lot of anything economically.

Omni · December 11, 2016

1 minute ago, Smallc said:

I've been to Mexico. I love it, and I'm going back in 30 days - it doesn't lead Canada in a whole lot of anything economically.

Other than maybe illegal arms and drugs to the US.

bush_cheney2004 · December 11, 2016

38 minutes ago, Smallc said:

I've been to Mexico. I love it, and I'm going back in 30 days - it doesn't lead Canada in a whole lot of anything economically.

Well, we do know that Canada leads Mexico for illegal overstays in the United States.

A fair trade for leading Canada in exports to the U.S.

Trudeau + Wynne sure are a winning combination !

Edited December 11, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

Smallc · December 11, 2016

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Well, we do know that Canada leads Mexico for illegal overstays in the United States.

A fair trade for leading Canada in exports to the U.S.

We also get undying attention from Americans with an inferiority complex. I think we've got more than we deserve already.

bush_cheney2004 · December 11, 2016

4 minutes ago, Smallc said:

We also get undying attention from Americans with an inferiority complex. I think we've got more than we deserve already.

Yes, now imagine if part of an entire nation did it on a routine basis in between hockey games.

PM Trudeau explained why, "Because it matters so much to us".

As Trudeau continues to hose things up, cross border turnabout will be fair play.

Edited December 11, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

Smallc · December 11, 2016

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes, now imagine if part of an entire nation did it on a routine basis in between hockey games.

I'm surprised you had time to take such a poll, being an American with such a keen interest in Canada - between baseball games, of course.

bush_cheney2004 · December 11, 2016

Just now, Smallc said:

I'm surprised you had time to take such a poll, being an American with such a keen interest in Canada - between baseball games, of course.

I know, right ? Trudeau will provide ample (comical) opportunity to give back to Canada after years of gifts going south. Sunny ways !

Smallc · December 11, 2016

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I know, right ? Trudeau will provide ample (comical) opportunity to give back to Canada after years of gifts going south. Sunny ways !

I'm sure for every Trudeau gaffe, we'll have at least an equal amount from Senior Trump. Not to worry, you'll still get your attention. In the meantime, I'm sure there's some US magazine cover that Trudeau can grace.

bush_cheney2004 · December 11, 2016

7 minutes ago, Smallc said:

I'm sure for every Trudeau gaffe, we'll have at least an equal amount from Senior Trump. Not to worry, you'll still get your attention. In the meantime, I'm sure there's some US magazine cover that Trudeau can grace.

Trump hasn't assaulted any female representatives in Congress yet, unlike Trudeau in Parliament.

Far better than magazine covers, Trump's name rides high above the skyline of major Canadian cities...for years.

Edited December 11, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

Smallc · December 11, 2016

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump hasn't assaulted any female representatives in Congress yet, unlike Trudeau in Parliament.

Good job with the qualifier.

Charles Anthony · December 11, 2016

Folks,

Please avoid thread drift.

drummindiver · December 11, 2016

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 8:39 PM, OftenWrong said:

People are realizing the man is a complete hypocrite. Behind his smiling sunny face is the same old, dirty Liberal party. Canadians were fooled again.
You can bet they won't put up with this sort of bullshit the next election.

After what happened here in Ontario zi wouldn't take that bet.

Edited December 12, 2016 by drummindiver

segnosaur · December 13, 2016

On 12/7/2016 at 6:31 PM, Rue said:

I did not have a chance to respond to your comments about Castro. I lost track of how many subjective opinion statements without proof you posed as facts and the misrepresentations as to the points I made.

Let me help you with get on track then.

The number of subjective opinions I've offered without proof: Zero. Zip. Ziltch.

You see, I like to back my statements up with references. When I pointed out that incomes are lower under Castro, I gave a reference to a paper published by university researchers. When I suggested that people don't like Castro, I referred to an opinion poll published in the Washington Post, a reputable news source. When I pointed out how Castro was living very well off, I backed it up with a reference to Forbes, another reputable news source.

The person who does seem to give opinions without proof is you. Consider all the claims you've made..."People love castro" (no proof given). "Castro doesn't live extravagantly" (no proof given).

Quote

You stated: " At the risk of Godwinning this thread, by your logic we couldn't even condemn Nazi Germany, or Italy during WW2 because "Hey the facists made the trains run on time so not everything was bad".)" Your above comment makes no sense.

My comments make perfect sense.

Hitler/Mussolini were first rate jerks. If someone tried to say "They weren't all bad, you have to take the good along with the bad", I would point out that whatever "good" that they did (e.g. making the trains run on time) was such a miniscule accomplishment, and the bad things that they did (i.e. killing millions) was so horrendous that whatever "good" that they did could safely be ignored when we label them as jerks.

Its the same with Castro... Yes, literacy is high in Cuba, but that is such a minor accomplishment (especially considering that they already had a high literacy rate before the revolution), and the depth of Castro's abuses is so high (killing thousands, stifling free speech, leaving his people poorer than before, etc) that a rational person can safely say "This Castro guy is not worth praising".

Quote

You believe since I am trying to present another view about Castro other than yours I am a supporter of Mussolini and Hitler.

Actually, I'd say its more an issue of hypocrisy.

Quote

Next you have totally misrepresented my views on food and calorie intake in Cuba. What I have shown is that your simply taking calories as a sign of health is wrong. You also confuse and do not understand the difference between my showing that lack of choice and limits on food is very true, but lack of variety and starvation is something different.

And once again.... regardless of whatever vitamins/minerals/other nutrients a person gets in their diet... Total Calories are important, and a person must obtain a minimum number of Calories otherwise health problems set in.

Cubans under castro were not getting that minimum number of calories. Thus, its proper to label it "malnutrition" if the people were not getting enough calories in their diet. (And its only been due to foreign aid that Cubans have finally been able to get the number of calories they need.)

Quote

You not I have made comments to suggest Cubans eat cats and were starving and you even make the ridiculous statement that and I quote "not much so in the US".

You do realize that when I talk about Cubans eating cats, I'm not suggesting that as some sort of hyperbole, or some poetic statement. I'm actually referring to actually catching and eating house cats. As in "Here kitty kitty! Get in this pot so I can make a stew!"

I'm no denying that there are poor people in the U.S. There certainly are people on welfare, and the working poor. Many of those people don't eat right. But its rare that they would have to survive by literally eating cats.

Now, you've published a bunch of links, many of which are bunk, but because they are similar kind of bunk I'm reorganizing things a little bit...

Quote

There is another side of the story you won't even consider:

http://www.iammyownreporter.com/misconceptions.htm

https://www.wfp.org/countries/cuba

https://youthandeldersja.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/unicef-cuba-has-0-child-malnutrition/

https://amte.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/is-fidel-castro-one-of-the-richest-men-in-the-world/

http://borgenproject.org/poverty-in-cuba/

Ok, so many problems with your little band of quotes...

[/quote]

Ok, so many problems with your little band of quotes...

First of all... "iammyownreporter"? "wordpress"? You are seriously considering those as valid sources? You do realize that anyone in the world can create their own web site with a credit card and an extra $100. I tend to post from sites like Universities, or major newspapers. I could have posted from any number of private Anti-Castro blogs and similar sites, but the rational thinker in my says "stick to reputable sites... major newspapers, university research, and the like". You are posting from sites created by nobodies, with "facts" that aren't subject to verification. I think that says a lot about how you came to your

Secondly, lets pretend your sites were reputable. Your 'iammyownreporter' site says that "prostitution isn't motivated by harsh conditions". Your "borgenproject" site says "many women depend on prostitution to make a living". These are contradictory. So which is it? Do women need to turn to prostitution or not? And more importantly, why exactly should we trust you or your sources if they have those types of contradictions?

Lastly, as I pointed out, your references that talk about child malnutrition in Cuba are irrelevant, because as I said.... Cuba receives substantial food aid. It doesn't matter how well the people are fed now... if they are being fed by handouts (even some from the 'evil' united states), then your country is not a success.

Quote

Your sweeping statement the US embargo did not harm Cubans only its own mismanagement did is the kind of one sided statement I challenge:

http://medicc.org/ns/documents/The_impact_of_the_U.S._Embargo_on_Health_&_Nutrition_in_Cuba.pdf

But wait a second.... your reference to 'iammyownreporter' specifically debunked the embargo when it pointed out how the embargo wasn't an issue because of all the other countries that do trade with Cuba. So which of your references do you want to stick to... the 'iammyownreporter' one or the 'medicc' one?

Quote

Now if you think not having cell phones makes one a victim of communism knock yourself out.

First of all, you were the one that brought up the cell phone issue.

Secondly, its not just cell phones that Cubans lack, its land lines as well.

Lastly, phones (both cell and landline) are usually seen as important tools for communication. It allows people to talk to friends and family, improves business communication, can be used for emergency services, etc. Its hardly a luxury, especially not in this day and age. So not having a phone should be seen as pretty significant. After all, more people had phones before the revolution than they do now...

Quote

Quote

So you want to refer to all the articles he was rich and lived lavishly, sufe but there is another side as well:

But the point is, you claimed that he didn't live lavishly. I showed that you were wrong.

Quote

Quote

Back to the thread, Trudeau I suppose in your world should have called him names.

Nope. In fact, I've already stated how Trudeau should have handled it. He should have done the same thing as Obama.

The Obama statement expressed condolences to the family, but when it came to the people he just said they are in their "thoughts and prayers"; i.e. no claim about whether Cubans would be mourning the death of Castro or celebrating. He also kept things vague with comments about how Castro "altered lives", without specifically saying whether it was for the better or worse. Obama didn't condemn Castro, but he didn't praise him either. It walked the line perfectly... conciliatory enough not to damage fragile Cuban/American relations, while not being over-the-top in its praise of Castro.

Trudeau should have taken the same sort of tone... "We express our condolences to the family of Castro... we've had a long history of diplomatic relations and we hope to have more in the future. Peace out. (drop the mic)" Simple, doesn't praise a brutal dictator but doesn't do anything that will anger his successors. Instead, what we got was unnecessary praise which hyped Castro's questionable successes and whitewashed his abuses.

Quote

Quote

By t he way I love discussions about Cuba and Cubans that can't differentiate them from Castro.

I'm quite willing to differentiate the 2 of them. But since Castro was a dictator and had almost absolute control of the island (setting economic and political policy) then any discussion of Cuba's success or failures will revolve around Castro.

Quote

Quote

I also like people who think the US doesn't have anyone eating cats:

http://www.worldhunger.org/hunger-in-america-2015-united-states-hunger-and-poverty-facts/

http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/5-facts-about-hunger-in-america

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-hunger-us

Once again... never claimed that poor people and/or poverty don't exist in the U.S. ... only that whatever problems exist in the U.S., the problems are not as widespread (i.e. fewer people will have problems getting food in the U.S. as compared to Cuba) and far less severe (e.g. in the U.S., people might resort to going to food banks. In Cuba, people resort to eating cats. I think most rational people would prefer having to go to a food bank over eating cats, even though you can argue that both are cases of being "poor")

And one other thing... poor people do exist in the U.S., but many of those receive aid from other Americans. (Food stamps from the government, food banks from charitable organizations.) On the other hand, Cuba can't seem to feed its people without outside aid. So in the U.S. there is a problem with wealth distribution, but that's nowhere near as severe as the situation where Cuba has to beg the rest of the world for aid.

Edited December 13, 2016 by segnosaur
Fix to quote tags

Rue · December 13, 2016

Excellent response Seg enjoyed it. Just a couple of things. A lot of the reports on Castro living a luxurious lifestyle come from the same suspect sources as you claim I quote.

Also my surveillance on you indicates a pretty posh existence. ( I have drones)

As for prostitution, he did away with the wide spread prostitution of his predecessor but after the Soviet collapse and subsequent economic catastrophe in Cuba, I try to provide you sources that are balanced on the topic that is why you call them contradictory-they are different perspectives. it is my opinion and its only that, that the prostitution in Cuba was wiped out but then allowed back as part of its model to bring in tourism to get hard US currency. It had to be approved by the government. It could not exist without their controlling it and allowing the prostitutes to work the hotels. It is a way to keep track of potentially wealthy people to see if you can come up with someone worth blackmailing and two is a great way to get US currency quickly. Hookers in Cuba are never too far way from some man with sun glasses smoking black tobacco and staring.

Can't say I approve of it and I blame directly the government for it but I can say they police it for aids and underage children. I approve of Cuba's medical and education systems and their tourism model and their getting housing for everyone and wages higher then they would have gotten under Batista but yah the price of forced egalitarianism has come by limiting individual freedoms and liberties.

I don't necessarily approve of their economic policies when it comes to farming.

Can't say Cuba is a utopia and yah for gay people like all gay people in the West Indies its not the greatest place for them to live no but is that communism or a culture prevalent in most of Central and South America and the West Indies? I do agree with some posters who have argued the irony in Trudeau skirting around the gay rights issue and looking the other way on Castro's record on that . I can't argue that.

All I have tried to do is provide a counter argument to yours about Cuba and the totality of the legacy undr Cstro and suggest Trudeau didn't exactly wax poetic on the topic and each sentence out of his mouth has many UH UH UH U H's anyways. He is not eloquent. He's got a speech impediment and speaks in words that make people despise politicians-all rhetoric and hot air but on Castro come on he kept his comments brief.

Trudeau went to Cuba hoping for a ridiculous photo op and didn't expect the back lash and then a week or so later after posing himself as such a dear friend of the Castros of course send his Guv Gen..

All kidding aside you have made excellent points. I've tried to counter them and argue it is too easy to write Castro off. I concede he was not an angel and Cuba was no utopia but what I am saying is and I remain on that point, that the assumption that a materialist and capitalist society was and will be BETTER or superior to others in any society not just Cuba is not black and white and no I don't buy cell phones as a method of measuring social progress, lol just the opposite. It's a consumer and government tracking device pure and simple. Its as bad as the big bad commies you say control Cubans.

Now here again os the way I talk about Castro and his legacy, not in black and white terms but relative ones which do not applaud his human rights violations or pretend his economic policies were perfect unlike you I don't argue the US embargo had no negative impact on Cuba,or that everything he did was evil:

https://cliojournal.wikispaces.com/An+Assessment+of+the+Cuban+Revolution

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-big-question-has-cuba-benefited-or-suffered-under-fidel-castros-47-year-rule-410305.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/The-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-of-Fidels-revolutionary-life.html

Now the best analogy I can come up with in regards to how a politician refers to Castro is this one. Trudeau got heat by those sounding an awful lot like people jumping on the Donald S. Trump right wing bad wagon. George Bush Sr., former head of the CIA if you read his reports on Castro was not afraid to talk about the good not just bad things he did. In a proper analysis you have to. Doesn't mean you support the regime. This is the same Bush who as ambassador to China was the no.1 US analyst of it under Mao and ushered the way for Nixon into China following Trudeau's earlier initiative. Capitalists get into bed with Commies all the time.

Case in point-Trump and Putin. As we talk Trump is taking about appointing the former head of Exxon as Sec. of State and that guy is as close to Putin as it gets.You see Trump openly talking about Putin as you do Castro.

The reason capitalists speak so badly of Castro is not because he was a tyrant but because he wouldn't sell out to them. Capitalists had no problem getting into bed with Pinochet and other dictators across the world. Hell at one point Tony Blair went to Libya and kissed Moe Ghadafi's hand, as did the Prez of France and Prime Minister of Italy and our Trade Minister.

You hear any capitalists complaining about lack of public liberty and human rights in Vietnam, China, Cambodia? You think Coca Cola and Nike and Adidas and all the clothes companies give a damn about tyranical regimes?

Let's cut to the chase. There have been people as soiled as Castro in how they have run countries and not a peep from the US-the whole legacy of Cuba comes down to anger over his giving the finger to the Western capitalist network of power. He gave his finger to the IS and International Monetary Fund. He played a dangerous game of becoming dependent on the Soviet Union, China, Venezuela to offset that. But what he also did is lure in Canadian, Spanish, Italian, French, hotel investors with up front 50-50 partnerships on hotels. He knew how to work with capitalists who would not have the upper hand on him and I ask you to look at the tourism model.

Hotel workers were given housing which they did not have under Bautista. They were given as well guaranteed wages, health care and education. No they did not live as they do in Mexico, Dominican Republic and Haiti or even Jamaica going home in the night time with small wages and no way to pay for medical care. I have travelled in the West Indies on volunteer missions. I can't say their capitalist models have done any remarkable thing for the average person. The tourism benefits an elite class. The governments are all corrupt. Land deals and elections are a joke. I am saying Cuba is no utopia but the West Indies as a whole is not necessarily better. Please don't argue the people in Haiti do better by not being communist.

Next. Castro like Santa Claus had a beard. He didn't fly in a sleigh but he drove in a jeep. There you go.

:

Edited December 13, 2016 by Rue

?Impact · December 13, 2016

1 hour ago, segnosaur said:

Cubans under castro were not getting that minimum number of calories. Thus, its proper to label it "malnutrition" if the people were not getting enough calories in their diet. (And its only been due to foreign aid that Cubans have finally been able to get the number of calories they need.)

From the numbers I have seen, Cubans were getting the almost perfect number of calories (based on average adult). It was not malnutrition, and more importantly it was not unhealthy overeating we see in the average North American diet. Yes the decades of American trade embargo on Cuba did put it in a poor position for importing food, and being a small island in a major hurricaine area caused its domestic food supply to be vulnerable to natural disasters.

On 12/11/2016 at 0:36 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump hasn't assaulted any female representatives in Congress yet, unlike Trudeau in Parliament.

Trudeau is a member of Parliament. Trump is not a member of Congress. Are you sure you are an American citizen?

Rue · December 14, 2016

21 hours ago, ?Impact said:

From the numbers I have seen, Cubans were getting the almost perfect number of calories (based on average adult). It was not malnutrition, and more importantly it was not unhealthy overeating we see in the average North American diet. Yes the decades of American trade embargo on Cuba did put it in a poor position for importing food, and being a small island in a major hurricaine area caused its domestic food supply to be vulnerable to natural disasters.

Trudeau is a member of Parliament. Trump is not a member of Congress. Are you sure you are an American citizen?

As you stated there have been some hurricanes that devastated Cuba that had significant impact on its agricultural production, Then there was the American embargo and there was also disasterous policies Castro implemented similar to the exact same failed model he borrowed from the Soviet Union. Its a mix of all 3.

The greatest weakness of the Soviet style Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Kruschev-Breshnev model was its ridiculous 3, 5 and 10 year plans. The problem with socialism or collectivism is it works well in small collective farms but the larger it becomes the more likely it breaks down. Coops have had success in Canada in the past but gone the way of the dodo bird because of world wide economic control by the IMF not to mention protectionist tarrifs and various free trade agreements.

Today farming is controlled by large coroporations not collectives or individual farmers. A country like Cuba can not protect itself against the IMF, Chiquita, Delmontr, Coca Cola, the Chinese state monopoly when it comes to food prices. Its a different era than in the 60's even 70's.

The Soviet model failed in Russia and gave way to what it is today organized crime running a series of black markets all protected by the government which serves as the enforcement agency for the mob in Russia. In Cuba the attempt of its government to guarantee access to food for all comes into conflict with how to encourage farmers to produce more-to provide incentives. The government in Cuba as a general rule was loath to have people outside government generate wealth from individual amassing of profit and so giving profit back to farm owners was not up for consideration.. Its an issue that has also come up in Vietnam, China, not just Cuba. China seems to use a model Castro did not approve of. In fact the Soviet model Castro depended on was widely dismissed by even leftists. Its a complex debate as to how one controls and distributes the production of labour, the division of profit and the distribution of food. Distribution of food can determine how much prices get inflated depending on the market that dictates the price. Not sure how much that has to do with Castro or Cuba and how much of that is just a problem the whole world deals with.

The US always used cheap illegal labour from Mexico, third world, Central and South America, to assure the picking of its lettuce, fruits, vegetables, tobacco.

China is one slave labour market. So is Vietnam.

Farmers today in Canada have no say, The potato boards, etc., all dictated by the large mega nationals like McCain's.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Rue

PIK · January 3, 2017

Happy New Year. Tonight is 150 years in the making, and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ring in the New Year together.”

PM Trudeau.

I guess together mean when I am in the Caribbean on your dime we will be together. Is this guy ever going to stay home and get to work?? Does this guy even get it what his job is?? And the end of the yr interview he had the gall to say the media treats him horribly. We are doomed.

Omni · January 3, 2017

10 minutes ago, PIK said:

Happy New Year. Tonight is 150 years in the making, and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ring in the New Year together.”

PM Trudeau.

I guess together mean when I am in the Caribbean on your dime we will be together. Is this guy ever going to stay home and get to work?? Does this guy even get it what his job is?? And the end of the yr interview he had the gall to say the media treats him horribly. We are doomed.

I bet you he didn't spend over a million bucks flying his own armored limo like Harper used to do back when we were really doomed.

Smallc · January 3, 2017

3 hours ago, PIK said:

Happy New Year. Tonight is 150 years in the making, and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ring in the New Year together.”

PM Trudeau.

I guess together mean when I am in the Caribbean on your dime we will be together. Is this guy ever going to stay home and get to work?? Does this guy even get it what his job is?? And the end of the yr interview he had the gall to say the media treats him horribly. We are doomed.

Pallister is in Costa Rica - you said that wasn't a problem.

PIK · January 3, 2017

2 hours ago, Omni said:

I bet you he didn't spend over a million bucks flying his own armored limo like Harper used to do back when we were really doomed.

I have no problem with security for PM's, but this constant vacation he has been on ,must come to a stop. It seems he cant go anywhere without giving our money away. He is the PM of Canada, not world leader. As I have said many time, Canada is to Small of stage for trudeau. But you seem to forget all the billions trudeau has spent in 1 yr and not one new net job.

Smallc · January 3, 2017

Constant vacation? You're kidding right?

PIK · January 3, 2017

2 minutes ago, Smallc said:

Pallister is in Costa Rica - you said that wasn't a problem.

Premier of Manitoba is not the PM of Canada. And I would take him for 10 months of the yr, over 12 months of Wynne.

Smallc · January 3, 2017

Just now, PIK said:

Premier of Manitoba is not the PM of Canada. And I would take him for 10 months of the yr, over 12 months of Wynne.

You're right - Trudeau has a plane on standby 24/7 with a satellite communication system and a staff dedicated to making sure things are running smooth - Pallister, not so much.

Omni · January 3, 2017

10 minutes ago, PIK said:

I have no problem with security for PM's, but this constant vacation he has been on ,must come to a stop. It seems he cant go anywhere without giving our money away. He is the PM of Canada, not world leader. As I have said many time, Canada is to Small of stage for trudeau. But you seem to forget all the billions trudeau has spent in 1 yr and not one new net job.

Just wait until the shovels go in the ground building pipelines and we'll see about jobs. And flying a Cadillac all the way to India is just a little bit extravagant I would say. I've been there, they have shiny vehicles.