Toronto to introduce toll roads

[Ash74]

8 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Indeed,

Taxpayers already paid for the road, and we will continue to pay with our taxes to maintain the road. If the construction companies and the process of giving out contracts was not so f'n corrupt, this might be easier on our tax wallets. 

Taxes are not enough for this government. The new phrase of revenue tools makes it so nice and pretty. It does not matter if taxes of been raised and costs have caused people to choose between groceries or hydro it is secondary to wynne's grand design. 

Cap and trade will add a new stream towards her end goal. 

I just hope there something left of the people in Ontario. 

Tolls are just the latest "revenue tool" and with an excuse to increase funding for the TTC so that they can have more drivers on the sunshine list. That will make the unions happy 

[Boges]

The Buzzword here is a user pays model. If you use the highway, why don't you pay taxes, especially since you don't live in Toronto.

Except this toll isn't to maintain the Gardiner or the DVP it's a tax for transit expansion. 

And employing a User pay model is double dipping. People already pay taxes for services they don't use for the collective good, so now to move to a "User Pay" model is just to ad an extra layer of taxation. 

You'll see tolls everywhere in the USA, but they don't have nearly as high levels of taxation. 

[Bob Macadoo]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

The Buzzword here is a user pays model. If you use the highway, why don't you pay taxes, especially since you don't live in Toronto.

Except this toll isn't to maintain the Gardiner or the DVP it's a tax for transit expansion. 

And employing a User pay model is double dipping. People already pay taxes for services they don't use for the collective good, so now to move to a "User Pay" model is just to ad an extra layer of taxation. 

You'll see tolls everywhere in the USA, but they don't have nearly as high levels of taxation. 

The tolls are for transit infrastructure.....which includes the gardiner and dvp.  Why do you also think your provincial and federal gas tax pays for municipal roads?  Taxes are paying for grading and paving.  Overpass structures need rebuild.  Drainage needs redesign with increased runoff due to density building.  You pay in your power bill to maintain and upgrade infrastructure, you pay in your gas bill the same......your taxes don't cover it.  So pick....societal pay or user pay......but some people are going to have to pay more.

[Ash74]

29 minutes ago, Bob Macadoo said:

The tolls are for transit infrastructure.....which includes the gardiner and dvp.  Why do you also think your provincial and federal gas tax pays for municipal roads?  Taxes are paying for grading and paving.  Overpass structures need rebuild.  Drainage needs redesign with increased runoff due to density building.  You pay in your power bill to maintain and upgrade infrastructure, you pay in your gas bill the same......your taxes don't cover it.  So pick....societal pay or user pay......but some people are going to have to pay more.

Especially when roads are paved repeatedly for shoddy workmanship. Paying for the same repairs over and over adds up. 

See AG report. No wonder we are broke

 

[Bob Macadoo]

Nice duck.....you want to claw back money from those who faked contract compliance.....fine......that'll get you a couple pints of tar.....now what?

[Ash74]

3 minutes ago, Bob Macadoo said:

Nice duck.....you want to claw back money from those who faked contract compliance.....fine......that'll get you a couple pints of tar.....now what?

Old saying

Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves. 

Just because government believes in "what's a million?" does not mean we should ignore the issue. It is not a duck. It is a government that raises taxes constantly and still cries poor 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Ash74

[H10]

On 12/6/2016 at 6:16 PM, Ash74 said:

Taxes are not enough for this government. The new phrase of revenue tools makes it so nice and pretty. It does not matter if taxes of been raised and costs have caused people to choose between groceries or hydro it is secondary to wynne's grand design. 

Cap and trade will add a new stream towards her end goal. 

I just hope there something left of the people in Ontario. 

Tolls are just the latest "revenue tool" and with an excuse to increase funding for the TTC so that they can have more drivers on the sunshine list. That will make the unions happy 

LOL.  I will never understand how Canada, Toronto, has so much taxes but such shody infrastructure. Oslo has 500k people, Toronto has 2.7 million people.  It has 5 times the people and less subway stops. It has a similar tax rate.  Toronto has so much corruption, from the mayor right up to the premier.  I don't think the unions are even the tip of the iceberg, if the unions were well paid and did their job, that would be fine.  What we have is contractors paid $100,000+ for a few days of work worth $100-$1000 dollars charging millions of dollars where $10,000 is suitable.

[H10]

3 hours ago, Bob Macadoo said:

The tolls are for transit infrastructure.....which includes the gardiner and dvp.  Why do you also think your provincial and federal gas tax pays for municipal roads?  Taxes are paying for grading and paving.  Overpass structures need rebuild.  Drainage needs redesign with increased runoff due to density building.  You pay in your power bill to maintain and upgrade infrastructure, you pay in your gas bill the same......your taxes don't cover it.  So pick....societal pay or user pay......but some people are going to have to pay more.

This is the false contradiction tax and spend corrupt politicians are trying to set up.  Tory went from claiming tolls were highway robbery to claiming we need tolls even though they raise marginal revenue.  We already paid for the highway, we paid multiple times, we pay property taxes, sales taxes on vehicles and gas, provincial income taxes, gas taxes, estate taxes, licensing taxes and fines (which are really just taxes on drivers issued arbitrarily).

How is it that every other highway in the province can be maintained without tolls but these two?  Don't you see they are blowing all our money.  Tolls will just mean more money wasted, reduced services, more gravy train and more waste of money.  We have a more dense city than ever, so how do we end up with more taxes?  We should have less not more!  Rob ford was right, there is a gravy train in the city of Toronto, land developers have been given over $4.5 billion dollars in tax exemptions since Tory took office, why doesn't he close that loophole and pay for the roads?  At the current rate, they will take every single dime you make.  They will never run out of money to spend.  And if the money is for transit infrastructure, why don't the ttc riders pay for it, after all they will be the beneficiaries?

[Boges]

Toronto owns those highways, so if they want to toll them they're free to do so. I think there may be consequences however. I do think it's just the easy solution and not to look how money is actually being spent. They keep punting this issue down the road and nothing ever gets done. No way these tolls get installed in the next 2 or 3 years. 

Patrick Brown has said he'd scrap the Toll plan. Now the City of Toronto Act specifies that Toronto can levy their own taxes (See the Land Transfer Tax they have). So I doubt he'll be able to unilaterally tell Toronto they can't do what the law says he can. But he's got a nice Wedge Issue for the 2018 election that will help in the Ford Nation Toronto Suburbs and into the 905 who stand to lose out from these Tolls. 

The Provincial Election is happening before the next mayoral race, if Brown is able to win seats in the surrounding Toronto suburbs, it'll probably give Tory some serious pause on this issue. 

[H10]

On 12/8/2016 at 9:44 AM, Boges said:

Toronto owns those highways, so if they want to toll them they're free to do so. I think there may be consequences however. I do think it's just the easy solution and not to look how money is actually being spent. They keep punting this issue down the road and nothing ever gets done. No way these tolls get installed in the next 2 or 3 years. 

Patrick Brown has said he'd scrap the Toll plan. Now the City of Toronto Act specifies that Toronto can levy their own taxes (See the Land Transfer Tax they have). So I doubt he'll be able to unilaterally tell Toronto they can't do what the law says he can. But he's got a nice Wedge Issue for the 2018 election that will help in the Ford Nation Toronto Suburbs and into the 905 who stand to lose out from these Tolls. 

The Provincial Election is happening before the next mayoral race, if Brown is able to win seats in the surrounding Toronto suburbs, it'll probably give Tory some serious pause on this issue. 

Toronto doesn't own the highways, the province does, they need permission from the province to do it and that is why Patrick Brown came out against it. Toronto can only levy taxes where the province has given them permission.  The cities only have power that the province or feds have given them, they have no real power except what the province says they have.

Tory is corrupt, he doesn't care if he loses the next election, he is just another Wynne.  His goal is to steal as much money as possible until he is booted from office in shame.  If the liberal government is dumb enough to approve the tolls, or arrogant enough, they might actually lose the 905 and therefore the election or at least become aminority government.

[drummindiver]

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 0:17 PM, Boges said:

It's to help the TTC close their budget gap. 

The Gardiner does need significant upgrades. 

Yes,  but I imagine it will be like McGuinty's health "premium". Used for whatever is politically helpful as opposed to intention.

 

[drummindiver]

On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Ash74 said:

Especially when roads are paved repeatedly for shoddy workmanship. Paying for the same repairs over and over adds up. 

See AG report. No wonder we are broke

 

Or just plain criminality. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/quebecs-corruption-scandal-is-a-canadian-problem/article6140631/%3Fservice%3Damp?client=ms-android-rogers-ca

[Michael Hardner]

On 12/10/2016 at 9:50 PM, hernanday said:

Toronto doesn't own the highways, the province does,...

No these are city-owned and operated highways, you are wrong on that one.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Expressway " The Gardiner Expressway is now wholly owned and operated by the City of Toronto. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Valley_Parkway " The parkway was the second expressway to be built by Metropolitan Toronto (Metro). " " Maintained by City of Toronto "

 

Now the City has to do whatever the Province tells it to, however.  So the Province could just prohibit tolls.

[H10]

On 12/12/2016 at 6:38 PM, Michael Hardner said:

No these are city-owned and operated highways, you are wrong on that one.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Expressway " The Gardiner Expressway is now wholly owned and operated by the City of Toronto. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Valley_Parkway " The parkway was the second expressway to be built by Metropolitan Toronto (Metro). " " Maintained by City of Toronto "

 

Now the City has to do whatever the Province tells it to, however.  So the Province could just prohibit tolls.

 

Do you have a reputable source, ie a non-wikipedia source anyone can edit?  And does maintained by mean it is owned?

Edited December 14, 2016 by H10

[Michael Hardner]

We usually use Wikipedia as a source. I will look through.

[Michael Hardner]

CTV News quotes a UBC Prof who specializes in transportation:

Quote

 

"It's important that Mayor Tory understand the ramifications of his actions on business and tourism. However, as Toronto owns the Gardiner and DVP, he is free to impose these tolls without input from his neighbours in the 905."

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/toronto-mayor-wants-gardiner-expressway-don-valley-to-be-toll-roads-1.3174706

[Rue]

To try answer Hern's question ownership of roads  can be confusing. Take Hwy 407. Part of it is publically owned (by the province) and part of it is leased to a private consortium to make profit for a non permanent time period.

As a general rule local roads within cities are maintained by municipal taxes, private roads off of public roads  and within private property are the responsibility of the owner of the property, anything else, i.e., highways outside cities, the province. Any road issue that impacts on more than one province also becomes a federal matter.

Technically no municipal law exists without first being allowed by the provincial legislature which has to first  delegate specific tax collection authority to a city, town or village it creates under the Municipal Act and its supporting regulations. 

Within a city, i.e., Toronto they have a road classification system that designates streets into different groups or classes according to the type of service each group is intended to provide. There are local, collector, minor arterial, major arterial  roads and express ways all defined by the number of cars that use them, seed limits, whether they have sidewalks, property access, transit access.

The province classifies its highways or King's Highways also known as the 400 series which you can find at:http://www.thekingshighway.ca/intro.html

Toronto doesn't own highways. John Tory has referred to City owned highways but he's mistaken.. He really  means City controlled not owned  highways.  His City is delegated the right to maintain certain highways within its borders through the collection of municipal taxes through its municipal government but all  that authority to collect taxes (tolls)  first must be given to it by provincial law, which is done through the Municipal Act of Ontario and supporting regulations as I mentioned.

The province does have the legal power to veto or prevent any tax collection activity of any town, village, city it delegates powers to through its Municipal Act. So in theory if it said no to road taxes  or tols within the City of Toronto  the City would not be able to charge the tolls.

In the present case John Tory got permission from Ms. Wynne to charge his tolls and he will impose them on the Gardiner and Don Valley.

So in summary Tory is technically wrong when he says City owned roads. The City does not own them, they do have the delegated authority to maingtain them through tax collection.

The City is subordinate in title to the province which technically is subordinate to the federal crown laws.

In fact you want to get technical the only one who owns land in Canada is the Queen or aboriginal tribes delegated that recognition through treaties the Cabadian federal government agreed to recognize and inherit from the British Crown which date back to King John and the Magna Carta Act. With the exception of specific aboriginal titles no one but the crown owns anything.  Tory got a little carried away.

He does have the authority to charge tolls however.

That said here is my argument on road tolls and why I think they are a sham:

1. We are told they will raise new money. Its not new. Its my money and your money.

2. Its a highway user fee which is a form of tax.

3. Its a second tax because citizens are already paying taxes for the road now being used to collect this second tax,

4,. There is zero I repeat zero guarantee the money raised by tolls by the City will be  used only to build roads and address traffic congestion-in fact its more likely the momey will be used to cover the city's out of control deficit and having it wasted no differently then the other taxes.

5. The doubling of a  tax doesn't guarantee it will be spent properly, if anything it makes it more possible to spend even more money improperly.

6. Ask yourself what portion of those road tolls will even see their way to maintaining the roads let alone build new ones?

7. How does taxing you even more stop corruption, inefficiency in spending? How does giving a drug addict more of the drug of his or her choice get them to stop using?

The problem we have is inefficient municipal governance of the taxes it does collect.

Ford was elected because people believed the city government was wasting money.

This same sentiment is what got Trump elected in the US and I would suggest is going to throw Wynne out on her buttox and Trudeau out on his when people see the amount of waste and lack of accountability to all the money spent by the government.

The City of Toronto has tax congestion and increasing taxes of car users won't end that,

The only way this City can cut congestion is to build subways and rapid transit units to provide people alternative methods of travel.

One subway system carries two or three rush hours.

If the City was in fact interested in congestion it would build in a safeguard that every penny from the tolls must be spent on mass transit. You won't see that and so because you won't the toll is a sham. You are pissing it away.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Rue

[H10]

I rarely agree with Rue.  Whatever the case, the moeny will not help.  The problem is corruption, all the donors of tory getting handouts on city dollar coming to collect their due.  The city will become broke.

[Rue]

Hah I just read H's response. Sooner or later everyone agrees with moi. I like to think of myself as a contagious virus on this forum.

You no like, take penicillin.

[H10]

On 11/24/2016 at 0:15 PM, GostHacked said:

Taxpayers have already paid for the roads. Who benefits from these toll roads?

The tolling company who paid for tory's campaign

[drummindiver]

Looks like Wynne is working on her approval rating for next June and put the kibosh on tolls. Just more taxes for everyone.

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/01/26/no-go-for-road-tolls-on-dvp-gardiner

[Boges]

Looks like she assumes 416 support, but needs the 905, who stand to suffer from tolling highways to Toronto. Super cynical move. 

[H10]

2 hours ago, drummindiver said:

Looks like Wynne is working on her approval rating for next June and put the kibosh on tolls. Just more taxes for everyone.

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/01/26/no-go-for-road-tolls-on-dvp-gardiner

This makes sense, she needs the 905 to win a close election, 905 is the deciding vote in most provinicial and federal elections and the pc would be smart to kill her on passing this tolls stuff because it is extremely unpopular in the 905.  We pay enough taxes, why should we pay to drive on the roads a 3rd time?

[Boges]

It's hilarious listening to these two talking heads (Wynne and Tory) acting like this funding is imminent.

Both will face election (In 2018) before either the Gas Tax funding gets doubled or any proposed tolling infrastructure would be built. Wynne could easily backtrack on this if she gets another mandate. 

Wynne has to do this because the NDP and PCs have pledged to cancel any tolling plans should they be elected. So it's not even like the NDP could benefit from any anti-Wynne sentiments from Downtown Toronto. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Boges

[Smallc]

Wynne said no, but I still hate her in other words.