The Canadian Courts FAIL again

[Argus]

A murder charge was stayed the other day in Ottawa. A man who killed over drugs gets to walk free because the courts are too incompetent and inefficient to try him in any sort of reasonable time. He's been in jail awaiting trial for four years now and a judge said that was unconstitutional and released him.  Criminal charges routinely take a couple of years in Canada, while civil trials can sometimes take 5 or more years just to be scheduled. This is NOT the case everywhere in the world, of course. Trials in the US and UK get done fairly quickly by comparison, usually in under a year, and sometimes in just a few months for simpler cases. What is wrong with the Canadian system that the courts and system are clogged with red-tape, paperwork and gross inefficiency?

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/murder-charge-for-soldier-stayed-following-nearly-four-year-delay

[Wilber]

Charter and resulting case law that has produced a legal system that is no longer capable of getting out of its own way. When this judge says the system has failed, it is his system and his failure.

[?Impact]

Yes, our court system does appear to be slow. It would interesting if someone had real empirical data that compared Canada to other similar countries. Not just the average length of criminal & civil trials, but also resources devoted to the system and reasons (real, not assumed) for extended trials or delays. The OECD has some limited studies in this area, but they don't include Canada in the reports I have seen. Statistics Canada does have some information on Canadian cases, but I haven't seen a good comparison to other countries. Some of the interesting statistics I have read on Canadian criminal cases are:

1. 66% conviction rate overall, with cases involving violence lower (50%) than those not
2. Impaired driving is most frequent case, about 11% of all cases
3. The various administration of justice charges (failure to comply with orders, probation violation, etc.) account for about 20% of all cases
4. Males are the offender in over 70% of the cases.  60% of cases are ages 18-35.
5. Median length of process is 123 days (4 months) across the country, with Quebec being highest (240 days), and PEI being the shortest (35 days). 

Edited November 17, 2016 by ?Impact

[Wilber]

Our legal system loves to quote conviction rates. If you plea bargain down a majority of your cases just to get rid of them, they are all counted as convictions but have little to do with justice.

[?Impact]

10 minutes ago, Wilber said:

but have little to do with justice.

 

You are right, we have a legal system, not a justice system. What however is the point you are trying to make? What is justice? I think you are searching for something that is not attainable. The best we can hope for is a legal system that helps to minimize injustices. 

[Wilber]

A system that helps minimize injustices will give as many people as possible (accused and victims) their day in court.  The definition of justice shouldn't be reducing a prosecutors case load.

[Moonlight Graham]

Tell me how much justice is in a "justice system" where your quality of and access to justice is so strongly dependent on how much is in your pocketbook?

And who looks out for the people once they're in prison?  Who advocates for dirty yucky sub-human criminals?  Imagine all of the disgusting inhumane things that have been done to criminals in jail by the state, or were turned a blind eye to, that we've never heard about.  Who would even believe them?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[overthere]

Wow, Ontario justice system is flailing and failing badly in  2016.  

 

Duffy, Ghomeshi, the cop convicted of attempted murder/acquitted of murder on the streetcar. this case.....

[Michael Hardner]

Canadians notoriously do not pay attention to service levels for government services.  This needs to be fixed in many areas but especially justice and health.

[The_Squid]

Underfunding has been chronic in the courts for years...

[Argus]

17 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Underfunding has been chronic in the courts for years...

It is not merely underfunding. There are institutional issues which are grossly inefficient and should have been addressed long ago. A few are addressed here, though they've been mentioned before.

Ontario’s system, like many, is in desperate need of an overhaul. Ontario has the highest number of criminal charges stayed or withdrawn (for various reasons) of anywhere in Canada at 43.1 per cent on average, in comparison with a mere 8.6 per cent in Quebec. Thousands of cases clog up the system in Ontario that never go anywhere, while serious cases languish. Unlike in Quebec, police in Ontario directly lay charges without pre-charge approval by a Crown prosecutor. This needs to change.

Our courts must modernize. In many places, judges waste their time scheduling court appearances. For example, in Newfoundland and Labrador, one study found that up to 72 per cent of a court’s sitting time is spent on scheduling hearings.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/unreasonable-delay-a-law-of-unintended-consequences/article32927142/

[Wilber]

This is one reason and I imagine it applies to every step in the legal system.

 

 

Quote

 

However, policing has become more complex and labour-intensive, observes Rick Ruddell, who teaches justice studies at the University of Regina.

“What people don’t consider is that the police carry out a lot of social service duties.”

“Law enforcement represents only a small fraction of their job. Even though the rate of police-reported crime is showing a decrease, their workload is actually increasing in a lot of areas, as they’re responding to all these other social problems.”

The paperwork burdens of policing has also grown, he points out.

“Impaired driving, for example. Twenty years ago, it took three hours to process an impaired driving case. Now it takes closer to eight or nine hours of an officer’s time. The requirements are so much higher now in terms of reporting and paperwork.”

 

 

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

This is one reason and I imagine it applies to every step in the legal system

The police are over burdened with paperwork, which is a function of the bureaucracy and complexity of the criminal justice system. Lawyers ever expanding the kind and number of forms that have to be filled out for every arrest, and if any form has a spelling error, well then, it's time for the case to be tossed out or a Charter case to be instituted... If we ever had a real police drama you'd see the cops spending most of their time filling out paperwork, waiting to testify, and testifying in court.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Yes when I read about this last week I was disgusted that something like this could happen in Canada. But I partially blamed Harper and his injustice minister Peter MacKay who brought in stupid laws based on their own religious beliefs and hence tied up the courts with stupid cases with non-criminals while real criminals getting away with murder and rape. Damn Harper regime for which we will be paying heavy prices for years.  Stupid laws like bill C36 who criminalizes and jails those engaging in consensual sex with adults up to 5 years (or at least those people charged will have to line up for courts) as one example which was introduced in 2014 against all expert advice in a manipulative manner based on personal beliefs and Trudeau government is too acting too cowardly to repeal this stupid bill at least so.far.

Edited November 20, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Wilber]

Yup, all Harpers fault. He brought in the Charter and made the Courts produce all the case law that strangles our system. Wait a minute, he was 23 and attending the U of Calgary in 1982.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes when I read about this last week I was disgusted that something like this could happen in Canada. But I partially blamed Harper and his injustice minister Peter MacKay who brought in stupid laws based on their own religious beliefs and hence tied up the courts with stupid cases with non-criminals while real criminals getting away with murder and rape.

I can't think of any laws brought in because of their religious beliefs. Perhaps you can offer up a few examples.

[CITIZEN_2015]

I have already given an example in my post. Perhaps you could go back and read it.

[Wilber]

No you didn't.

[dre]

On 11/17/2016 at 9:00 AM, Argus said:

A murder charge was stayed the other day in Ottawa. A man who killed over drugs gets to walk free because the courts are too incompetent and inefficient to try him in any sort of reasonable time. He's been in jail awaiting trial for four years now and a judge said that was unconstitutional and released him.  Criminal charges routinely take a couple of years in Canada, while civil trials can sometimes take 5 or more years just to be scheduled. This is NOT the case everywhere in the world, of course. Trials in the US and UK get done fairly quickly by comparison, usually in under a year, and sometimes in just a few months for simpler cases. What is wrong with the Canadian system that the courts and system are clogged with red-tape, paperwork and gross inefficiency?

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/murder-charge-for-soldier-stayed-following-nearly-four-year-delay

Well for one thing we jam them full of frivolous cases over things that shouldn't even be illegal... Like recreational drugs and prostitution for example. And to make it worse the idiotic war on drugs also generates a whole host of more serious offenses. Nearly 30 percent of assaults are drug related.... 27% of weapons violations....

 

Its the government and its laws that are broken. And the recent omnibus crime bill will just make things worse.

[dre]

On 11/19/2016 at 1:38 PM, Argus said:

The police are over burdened with paperwork, which is a function of the bureaucracy and complexity of the criminal justice system. Lawyers ever expanding the kind and number of forms that have to be filled out for every arrest, and if any form has a spelling error, well then, it's time for the case to be tossed out or a Charter case to be instituted... If we ever had a real police drama you'd see the cops spending most of their time filling out paperwork, waiting to testify, and testifying in court.

Police are over burdened by chasing kids around the park for smoking dope, chasing around sex workers,  and millions of incidents around things that should not even be in the criminal code.

[Wilber]

11 minutes ago, dre said:

Police are over burdened by chasing kids around the park for smoking dope, chasing around sex workers,  and millions of incidents around things that should not even be in the criminal code.

 If you believe that, you have no clue what they actually do.

 

Police and Prostitution

Edited November 21, 2016 by Wilber
Added link

[dre]

The second biggest reason for the backlog (besides all the wasteful frivolous cases), is the gutting of the system by governments. All across the country they are firing court staff, defunding legal aid, etc. In BC alone there are thousands and thousands of cases that will soon have to be dismissed due to the charges expiring.

On the bright side... almost all kinds of crime are at an all time low, and crime rates are receding. So overall it seems like our system is working pretty well. Most of the cases being dismissed probably should have never been brought in the first place.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, dre said:

Police are over burdened by chasing kids around the park for smoking dope, chasing around sex workers,  and millions of incidents around things that should not even be in the criminal code.

Hear hear.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

 If you believe that, you have no clue what they actually do.

 

Police and Prostitution

Do you read the link you are adding before adding it? Likely no because statistics in your link is only available up to the end of 2013 whereas the new ridiculous bill which became law in a manipulative manner by former Harper regime became law in December 2014 after which no data is yet available and certainly NOT in your link. The bill criminalized purchase of sex which was legal in Canada before that and hence many thousands who might have engaged in that activity and arrested are waiting for their court day as it is criminal since above date. In addition to many other related acts became criminal. What I am referring is the criminalization of sex between consenting adults as even before forced prostitution and underage and pimping was illegal so no new laws were needed.

 

Also the link that YOU have added has this article in it if you had read it.

For police, Bill C-36 may put further strains on their resources and budgets. A further consequence may be of that placed on the court systems around the country. The Canadian Bar Association has already warned of backlog issues around Canada’s justice system.

[Wilber]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Do you read the link you are adding before adding it? Likely no because statistics in your link is only available up to the end of 2013 whereas the new ridiculous bill which became law in a manipulative manner by former Harper regime became law in December 2014 after which no data is yet available and certainly NOT in your link. The bill criminalized purchase of sex which was legal in Canada before that and hence many thousands who might have engaged in that activity and arrested are waiting for their court day as it is criminal since above date. In addition to many other related acts became criminal. What I am referring is the criminalization of sex between consenting adults as even before forced prostitution and underage and pimping was illegal so no new laws were needed.

 

Also the link that YOU have added has this article in it if you had read it.

For police, Bill C-36 may put further strains on their resources and budgets. A further consequence may be of that placed on the court systems around the country. The Canadian Bar Association has already warned of backlog issues around Canada’s justice system.

There is no requirement for municipal police forces to make this a priority and most of them aren't. They and their city governments determine their priorities.

Vancouver police will not enforce C-36

Edited November 21, 2016 by Wilber