The Canadian Courts FAIL again

[CITIZEN_2015]

18 minutes ago, Wilber said:

There is no requirement for municipal police forces to make this a priority and most of them aren't. They and their city governments determine their priorities.

Vancouver police will not enforce C-36

It is in criminal code of Canada and the reason that the law enforcement in TWO cites only have declared that they will not enforce it (in Vancouver and Montreal and you are not telling the truth when you claim most don't enforce it) is because the new laws are stupid and very backward unsuitable in a democracy so they enforce it only when there is a harm to someone like pimping or underage or forced prostitution (in other words the good old laws) as they have NO TIME to enforce Harper's stupid laws in those two cities though Ontario premier has said Ontario WILL enforce it. In addition the two cities are not the entire country. In many other cities many people have been charged for consensual sex since the former injustice minister pushed it through parliament in spite of many concerns and expert advice against the bill under Harper's order.

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Wilber]

26 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is in criminal code of Canada and the reason that the law enforcement in TWO cites only have declared that they will not enforce it (in Vancouver and Montreal and you are not telling the truth when you claim most don't enforce it) is because the new laws are stupid and very backward unsuitable in a democracy so they enforce it only when there is a harm to someone like pimping or underage or forced prostitution (in other words the good old laws) as they have NO TIME to enforce Harper's stupid laws in those two cities though Ontario premier has said Ontario WILL enforce it. In addition the two cities are not the entire country. In many other cities many people have been charged for consensual sex since the former injustice minister pushed it through parliament in spite of many concerns and expert advice against the bill under Harper's order.

I'm saying that the Feds cannot force municipal police departments to enforce it. If you have a problem with what Ontario is doing, take it up with that government because no one is forcing them to enforce C-36. I gives them a tool but it is up to them if they use it.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Wilber

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 hours ago, Wilber said:

I'm saying that the Feds cannot force municipal police departments to enforce it. If you have a problem with what Ontario is doing, take it up with that government because no one is forcing them to enforce C-36. I gives them a tool but it is up to them if they use it.

Really? So you are saying that we have autonomous governments within the main government who can decide on their own whether or not to obey the Federal government and can legally disobey the Federal government right?So based on what you say the opposite is true too if the current Federal government find the courage to do the right thing and repeal the bill provinces still can continue charge and arrest people and jailed them? Even if true if it wasn't for Federal Harper we wouldn't be in this situations

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Wilber]

Yes they can. If you lived in a neighbourhood that was crawling with hookers, johns and addicts you might be happy these laws exist. They are a tool that can be used if needed. Or not.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I have already given an example in my post. Perhaps you could go back and read it.

You seem to have a fixation on prostitution laws, for what reason I can only imagine. But prostitution laws have been in place in Canada for as long as Canada has had laws, through Liberal and Conservative governments, and will remain in place.

As to the law you refer to, it is based on one in that dreaded land of religious fanaticism - Sweden, which should give any reasonable person a pretty fair idea of how liberal it actually is compared to most of the world's prostitution laws.

[Argus]

17 hours ago, dre said:

Well for one thing we jam them full of frivolous cases over things that shouldn't even be illegal... Like recreational drugs and prostitution for example. And to make it worse the idiotic war on drugs also generates a whole host of more serious offenses. Nearly 30 percent of assaults are drug related.... 27% of weapons violations....

You mean unlike in the US and UK? Or are you suggesting they don't also arrest people for recreational drugs and prostitution? 

[Argus]

16 hours ago, dre said:

The second biggest reason for the backlog (besides all the wasteful frivolous cases), is the gutting of the system by governments. All across the country they are firing court staff, defunding legal aid, etc. In BC alone there are thousands and thousands of cases that will soon have to be dismissed due to the charges expiring.

All of which is a function of the ludicrous complexity of the judicial system and the massive expense of moving even the simplest of cases through its oceans of red tape and arcane processes.

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

You seem to have a fixation on prostitution laws, for what reason I can only imagine. But prostitution laws have been in place in Canada for as long as Canada has had laws, through Liberal and Conservative governments, and will remain in place.

As to the law you refer to, it is based on one in that dreaded land of religious fanaticism - Sweden, which should give any reasonable person a pretty fair idea of how liberal it actually is compared to most of the world's prostitution laws.

I have told you why. I focus on these laws because it best demonstrates the fanaticism and dictatorship of Harper regime for which his regime and his injustice minister manipulated facts and created fictions and data in order to push through laws out of his religious fanaticism against all expert advice against the laws and clearly endangers the lives of most vulnerable people, the sex workers who now have to see criminals and those who may be dangerous offenders without the ability of being able to screen them out and be treated likely badly or violently because clients cannot be traced anymore as they block their phones or use burner phones. I also use it as an example that new laws result in non-criminals who simply engage in consensual sex with adults being criminally charged and hence tie up the court system and thus real criminals get away with real crimes like murder as YOU yourself pointed out in this thread. I have no issue with good old laws in which pimps and those who forced and exploited were criminally charged. But you have a agenda behind your post and trying to offend me by trying to give the wrong impression about my motives. This is low even for you to go there.

I have told you before but you have a weak memory. Sweden is not a land of religious fanaticism but rather a land of extreme feminism  the kind which I call it feminazism, where females rule. The Swedish model of this laws (first introduced in Sweden) arrest men as criminals and the other side who equally takes part in consensual sex is considered victim and free from any prosecution.  I believe in equality of everyone regardless of race, color, religion or gender and cannot accept if any one claims superiority over another or demand differential treatments based on race or gender or religion or the laws treat them differently based on gender or race or for whatever reason. In Sweden it is as bad as middle east that you are so opposed where women are treated as inferiors and in Sweden it is as bad for opposite reason as Harper just copied from them. Shame.

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

You mean unlike in the US and UK? Or are you suggesting they don't also arrest people for recreational drugs and prostitution? 

Trafficking drugs or selling to minors must be illegal. Prostitution too when it involves exploitation (by Johns or pimps) or violence against sex workers or underage workers must also be illegal and hardly punishable. I am all for it. However, when it comes to consensual sex between adults where material benefits may be involved then that aspect of sex work should be decriminalized in a civilized manner as in majority of countries in the world (except may be middle east and English speaking countries and Nordic ones) who have come to this realization that the old profession will never go away and hence they have to deal with it in the best way they could to protect the workers. If you feel people should be charged criminally for consensual sex with adults and tie up our courts so that criminals set free because of that then you are as bad as Harper and also a religious fanatic and have no rights to complain about criminals being set free and start this thread.

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

30 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I have told you why. I focus on these laws because it best demonstrates the fanaticism and dictatorship of Harper regime

And Sweden. Uh huh.

 

30 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I have told you before but you have a weak memory. Sweden is not a land of religious fanaticism but rather a land of extreme feminism  the kind which I call it feminazism, where females rule.

Uh huh. I guess that goes for every other country on Earth, too, since all of them have prostitution laws, and most are much more severe.

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Trafficking drugs or selling to minors must be illegal.

I'm not interested in your desire to change laws. Take it to another topic. This one is about why the Canadian courts are so slow as compared to the UK and US, among others. Since both have harsher laws on drugs and prostitution than we do this cannot be said to be the cause.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

20 minutes ago, Argus said:

And Sweden. Uh huh.

 

Uh huh. I guess that goes for every other country on Earth, too, since all of them have prostitution laws, and most are much more severe.

You are back to making FALSE statements as before. In most countries prostitution is decriminalized. Yes there are laws against pimping, violence, exploitation, minors as there must be but paying for sex to engage in consensual sex with adults is decriminalized in most of countries or it is illegal only on paper(like Thailand and Russia where you only pay fines so courts will not be tied up). Only in a third of countries it is criminalized and Canada is one of them thanks to Harper and people like you and religious fanatics.

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[msj]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

This one is about why the Canadian courts are so slow as compared to the UK and US, among others. 

If that is the point of this thread then where are all the stats for the UK and the US? 

Hell, where are the stats for Canada?

If you are going to compare and contrast such things then should you not step up and actually do some? 

[CITIZEN_2015]

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

I'm not interested in your desire to change laws. Take it to another topic. This one is about why the Canadian courts are so slow as compared to the UK and US, among others. Since both have harsher laws on drugs and prostitution than we do this cannot be said to be the cause.

You asked the question!!!!!

3 hours ago, Argus said:

You mean unlike in the US and UK? Or are you suggesting they don't also arrest people for recreational drugs and prostitution? 

Another FALSE statement. Please educate yourself before making statements. I don't know about drugs but prostitution laws are much more severe now in Canada than US and UK thanks to Harper regime who against all expert advice pushed it through parliament and made it law. In addition to laws in US and UK (public solicitation, being found in a bawdy house....)  in Canada thousands of people who engage in consensual sex with adults are now charged criminally (since December 2014) and send to courts for criminal prosecution. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, msj said:

If that is the point of this thread then where are all the stats for the UK and the US? 

Hell, where are the stats for Canada?

If you are going to compare and contrast such things then should you not step up and actually do some? 

Unfortunately, like others, I've searched but found no exact comparative statistics. I first noted the difference, however, during the trials for the rioters of the London riots. Most of them were tried and sent to jail while Vancouver, which had a riot three months earlier, still hadn't arrested anyone because they were still investigating. It took another 2-3 years before they finished charging and trying people. Now if you look at this, you get the following: Compare that to the United States, where a state capital murder trial can move from arrest to trial in three months.  And here, we see on page 14, that the majority of cases in the cities studied are resolved in under six months.

ABA Felony Case Disposition Time Standards

(arrest to entry of judgment or dismissal)

90% in 120 days

98% in 180 days

100% in 365 days

I did find this UK site, wherein the average length of time from arrest to disposition of cases is 24 weeks, and 14 of those weeks is the time between the offense being committed and the individual being charged. The time between the charge being laid, a trial scheduled, and concluded is ten weeks.

Information about Canada is in the cite which accompanied the OP.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Another FALSE statement. Please educate yourself before making statements. I don't know about drugs but prostitution laws are much more severe now in Canada than US and UK thanks to Harper regime

You don't even have a clue what the prostitution laws are in the US and UK. For one thing, these are state laws so are treated differently in all 50 states.

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

You don't even have a clue what the prostitution laws are in the US and UK. For one thing, these are state laws so are treated differently in all 50 states.

First off there are no states in UK and the laws are exactly what the old laws were in Canada as I described them so it is you who has no clue about UK laws. As in US it is true about each state having their own laws and in Nevada it is decriminalized which goes against your earlier statement that laws in UK and US are harsher than Canada, Seriously!!!!!! Can we go back to the topic of the thread (which you started!!!!).

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

First off there are no states in UK and the laws are exactly what the old laws were in Canada as I described them so it is you who has no clue about UK laws. As in US it is true about each state having their own laws and in Nevada it is decriminalized which goes against your earlier statement that laws in UK and US are haesher than Canada, Seriously!!!!!!

Seriously, Nevada is not Alabama, Texas or Iowa, or even New Jersey. Seriously, the present law in Canada is more moderate than the previous one, which means by your reckoning, it is more moderate than in the UK.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Argus

[msj]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

 

Information about Canada is in the cite which accompanied the OP.

 

 

Maybe in the video?  Can't watch it right now - no sound. 

Don't see anything about suitable and comparable stats for Canada in that link though. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Seriously, the present law in Canada is more moderate than the previous one, which means by your reckoning, it is more moderate than in the UK.

Wow Geez I am banging my head on the wall. I just say EDUCATE yourself a bit more before making such grossly false statements and making a mockery of yourself!!!!!

[Argus]

1 minute ago, msj said:

Maybe in the video?  Can't watch it right now - no sound. 

Don't see anything about suitable and comparable stats for Canada in that link though. 

Well you know that this entire fuss is because the supreme court set 30 months as the maximum time, and that provinces are even failing at that.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Wow Geez I am banging my head on the wall.

Have fun.

[WestCoastRunner]

I would not like our justice system to handles like the U.S. just for expedience purposes.  Consider the following:

in 1980, 19% of all federal defendants went to trial

in 2000, the number decreased to less than 6%

in 2010 and where it remains, it is less than 3%

Prosecutors bully defendants into coerced plea bargains (low income defendants are at a huge disadvantage, one of the reasons for a high population of minorities in the prison system)

I wonder what the stats are on plea bargains in Canada?

 

 

[Queenmandy85]

Citizen, it is clear that using the courts to eliminate drug use and prostitution is putting enormous pressure on the system. The problem is that prostitution and recreational drug use have to be curtailed some how and no one has come up with a better alternative. Both prostitution and recreational drug use destroy lives. To call prostitution 'consensual' is incorrect. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Queenmandy85

[CITIZEN_2015]

36 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Citizen, it is clear that using the courts to eliminate drug use and prostitution is putting enormous pressure on the system. The problem is that prostitution and recreational drug use have to be curtailed some how and no one has come up with a better alternative. Both prostitution and recreational drug use destroy lives. To call prostitution 'consensual' is incorrect. 

Though I agree (as I said clearly before) that many aspects of prostitution when exploitation and pimping is involved should remain illegal with even harsher penalties as they destroy lives however I beg to differ on some aspects of pay for sex when sex is consensual between adults (no one is forced or pimped or coerced) just because some material benefit is involved and I see it no differently than what the remaining 90-95% of men do in general (like talking a girlfriend to dinner or buying drinks in a bar for strangers or buying wives/girlfriends expensive gifts and many other examples). The law enforcement should use its limited resources in combating those aspects of prostitution where lives are destroyed rather than arresting people who engage in consensual sex and tie up our court systems. That is what I am saying.

Many sex workers are in this profession by CHOICE and regard themselves as professional workers who pay for their living or education some on temporary basis and they deserve equal protection as any other workers with equal rights and criminalization of their profession only makes it dangerous for them and takes away their rights to protection and insurances others enjoy. They also become tax payers as like others. It is not for us to decide for them what it correct or incorrect. As for better alternatives sex workers are advocating strongly the New Zealand model however Harper was blinded by religious fanaticism to hear them out and they were shut out of consultation as it was usual with Harper regime. The new laws are called Pickton's laws for good reason.

Edited November 21, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015