Native Ceremony takes place at a public school

[eyeball]

The only ferocity I saw was in the attempt to base the innocuousness on equating a very small geographically localized cultural tradition to a globe trotting organized institutionalized religion.

It's like comparing a local corner store herbalist to Big Pharma for crying out loud.

[Boges]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

The only ferocity I saw was in the attempt to base the innocuousness on equating a very small geographically localized cultural tradition to a globe trotting organized institutionalized religion.

It's like comparing a local corner store herbalist to Big Pharma for crying out loud.

But it's all religion. Something, I thought, we were supposed to stay away from in public school. It's been established in this thread that smudging is certainly religious in intent. Removing spirits from the room? 

[?Impact]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

But it's all religion. Something, I thought, we were supposed to stay away from in public school. It's been established in this thread that smudging is certainly religious in intent. Removing spirits from the room? 

Yes, if there were a daily smudging ceremony then it would be a problem. This however was educational because it was a once-of event. That is why there is a difference between a priest visiting a school and reading the Lord's prayer, and having the children recite it every morning.

[TimG]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Yes, if there were a daily smudging ceremony then it would be a problem. This however was educational because it was a once-of event. That is why there is a difference between a priest visiting a school and reading the Lord's prayer, and having the children recite it every morning.

It is the forced participation which is the issue. If the kids are merely observers then there is no issue. If they are required to actively participate in the ritual then it is a problem.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, TimG said:

It is the forced participation which is the issue.

Yes, my kids were forced to hold a cedar branch when they went on a field trip to a local park. Such terrible coercion by the school, forcing them to get in touch with nature. The school should have just shown them a picture of a cedar tree in a book and then they would be educated. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, my kids were forced to hold a cedar branch when they went on a field trip to a local park. Such terrible coercion by the school, forcing them to get in touch with nature. The school should have just shown them a picture of a cedar tree in a book and then they would be educated. 

Sure shown a video, or had a demonstration. Going back to the OP, it was implied that participation in the ceremony was mandatory. 

[?Impact]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Going back to the OP, it was implied that participation in the ceremony was mandatory. 

Yes, and what did participation amount to? Standing around holding a cedar branch and watch/listen to a ceremony. 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, and what did participation amount to? Standing around holding a cedar branch and watch/listen to a ceremony. 

So as long as someone like you, can subjectively say it's not all that much of request then it should be made mandatory.

Standing for the National Anthem should be mandatory, you just have to stand there. 

The school even conceded that it should have made it clear the demonstration was 100% voluntary. . . they didn't. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Boges

[?Impact]

Just now, Boges said:

Standing for the National Anthem should be mandatory, you just have to stand there. 

The national anthem is played in schools across the land, and the children are expected to stand. In some schools I expect they are still expected to sing it as well. Are you suggesting that be changed?

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The national anthem is played in schools across the land, and the children are expected to stand. In some schools I expect they are still expected to sing it as well. Are you suggesting that be changed?

So they get suspended if they refuse to? I seriously doubt that. 

[?Impact]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

So they get suspended if they refuse to? I seriously doubt that. 

Who got suspended? 

[Boges]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Who got suspended? 

No one that I know. I'm not going to search Google for a cite on this. But I'm pretty sure refusal to stand for the National Anthem is common. It's happening in the NFL now. 

That's a sidetrack. Teachers made students believe that this ceremony was mandatory, and that's wrong. They even admitted as such. 

[TimG]

47 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, and what did participation amount to? Standing around holding a cedar branch and watch/listen to a ceremony. 

Add all students need to do is repeat the word of lord's prayer. The issue is not about the inconvenience. The issue is about keeping schools secular. That means observation with optional participation.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, TimG said:

Add all students need to do is repeat the word of lord's prayer. The issue is not about the inconvenience. The issue is about keeping schools secular. That means observation with optional participation.

What part of once, versus daily ritual was hard for you to follow?

[Boges]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

What part of once, versus daily ritual was hard for you to follow?

So saying the Lord's prayer once is cool then? 

[TimG]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What part of once, versus daily ritual was hard for you to follow?

It would be a problem if they we forced to stand in class once and recite it. It makes no difference that in the past the government was lack when it come to keeping schools secular.

[?Impact]

49 minutes ago, Boges said:

So saying the Lord's prayer once is cool then? 

I have no issues about having a guest lecturer (say Priest) being invited into schools to add to a social studies curriculum and give a history of the church's involvement in Canadian history. Yes, if a prayer (Lord's or otherwise) were read by him (I assume only male Priests still in Catholic church as I believe RCWP is not recognized, but her if other denomination) or other appropriate ceremonial ritual is acceptable. We are talking the difference between "education" and "indoctrination". You realize that non-Christian religions do not burn up if they hear or even read the Lord's prayer:

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

I have no issues about having a guest lecturer (say Priest) being invited into schools to add to a social studies curriculum and give a history of the church's involvement in Canadian history. Yes, if a prayer (Lord's or otherwise) were read by him (I assume only male Priests still in Catholic church as I believe RCWP is not recognized, but her if other denomination) or other appropriate ceremonial ritual is acceptable. We are talking the difference between "education" and "indoctrination". You realize that non-Christian religions do not burn up if they hear or even read the Lord's prayer:

 

What would you have taught during the session?  Would you tell the children that, this is a prayer to a deity that these people believe exist, but there is absolutely no evidence for it?  Not long ago, by the way, they were burning people for saying that.  I can see that being educational.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

What would you have taught during the session?  Would you tell the children that, this is a prayer to a deity that these people believe exist, but there is absolutely no evidence for it?  Not long ago, by the way, they were burning people for saying that.  I can see that being educational.

I have no problem about educating our children about the full history of the Church. Now inviting a priest and having him sit through a lecture on witch burnings or residential school abuses is simply disrespectful. Understand your resources, and use them wisely in the curriculum. 

[Guest]

Just now, ?Impact said:

I have no problem about educating our children about the full history of the Church. Now inviting a priest and having him sit through a lecture on witch burnings or residential school abuses is simply disrespectful. Understand your resources, and use them wisely in the curriculum. 

You'd tell them after he'd gone?  Mixed messages for the little tykes.  It's the same with the Native ceremony.  What do you do, wait until they leave before you tell the kids it's all a crock?

[msj]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

Add all students need to do is repeat the word of lord's prayer. The issue is not about the inconvenience. The issue is about keeping schools secular. That means observation with optional participation.

 

This.

Seems so pragmatic and yet it drives the pro-natives in a tizzy.  

Keeping schools secular means not having kids participate (especially without parents consent). 

And to think, had SD#70 not done the smudge ritual and then had another religious ceremony in January then this issue would never have happened. 

I will remind people of the links earlier in this thread that, if read, indicate that the "busybody" mother, as ?Impact like to claim in his ad hominem way, filed the legal complaint after and because of the second breach of secularism. 

[eyeball]

What I'd really like to see is a curriculum that specifically teaches critical thinking. Call it that too i.e. Math, Science, English, Critical Thinking, History etc etc. Keep all the cultural and religious stuff for all I care just make sure to mandate a course in CT.

We should hire someone like Michael Shermer, Founding Publisher of Skeptic magazine, Executive Director of the Skeptics Society, and columnist for Scientific American to run our education department.

How much does anyone want to bet outraged parents would soon be howling religious freedom and clamouring for a law or war on atheism?

[Guest]

I was just watching the FN Conference on the National, and there was a delegate with a smoking ashtray!  Indoors no less!!

How come they get to break the rules?

[OftenWrong]

17 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I was just watching the FN Conference on the National, and there was a delegate with a smoking ashtray!  Indoors no less!!

How come they get to break the rules?

Because them smoke sacred tobacco, kemosabe.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Because them smoke sacred tobacco, kemosabe.

Back when I smoked, I got around to thinking they were pretty special when I'd been without for a few hours.