Immigration of religious fanatics

[drummindiver]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

I don't want to misunderstand you, so I ask - when you say this, is it because you think Muslims want to impose Sharia as the law of the land, wherever they live?  Or do you mean they wish to practice Sharia law within their own countries/communities?    

 

 That's one of the tenets all Muslims believe but interpret differently ie cutting off hands of thieves etc.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Of course not.  And I'd also think that most North American Muslims aren't impressed by how some of the dumb-ass Saudi imams talk, either.

People are completely willing to accept that even though Christians believe the same basic tenets, they have a wide range of social and political views.  And yet many seem incapable of accepting that Muslims might also have a wide range of social and political views.

 -k

 

It's accepted, alright. But what is being accepted?

We must accept that while most Muslims aren't going to try to kill me and my family, some are. And there's no way of telling which is which. Which ones are going to try and launch Jihad attacks? Hmmmmm?

 

[drummindiver]

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

 

People are completely willing to accept that even though Christians believe the same basic tenets, they have a wide range of social and political views.  And yet many seem incapable of accepting that Muslims might also have a wide range of social and political views.

 -k

It's easier to believe they are but sheep when media is full of news about attacks.

This is also the msm fault,  sort of the pit bull effect. It's only news when pit Bulls attack,  it's only news when muslims attack. Hardly heard a word when Buddhists buned a bunch of people alive.

 

[dialamah]

Just now, drummindiver said:

 That's one of the tenets all Muslims believe but interpret differently ie cutting off hands of thieves etc.

I'm not sure how that answers my question?   Are you saying you think there are Muslims who would impose Sharia law on non-Muslims?   Perhaps that's true, but the evidence suggests that's not the majority, especially in countries that have civil systems alongside Islamic systems.

I remember when Canadian people applauded news stories coming out of countries where thieves had their hands removed.    This was when I lived in a very conservative part of the country.

 

[GostHacked]

22 hours ago, Rue said:

No that's the snapshot of history you choose to start from.

 

With regards to the current state and the so called 'civil war' that has been going on in Syria for the past 4-6 years, yes indeed I have proven my point over and over again.

Edited December 27, 2016 by GostHacked

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

It's accepted, alright. But what is being accepted?

We must accept that while most Muslims aren't going to try to kill me and my family, some are. And there's no way of telling which is which. Which ones are going to try and launch Jihad attacks? Hmmmmm?

 

Kinda like me, living my daily life.   I accept that most men aren't going to rape me/my daughters/granddaughters, but some are.  And there's no way of telling which ones are going to attack/rape or drug/rape one of us?   Just really hard to know.   Will it be a stranger, a friend, a date, a neighbor, a babysitter, a friend's father?     Is there a way to tell?   Can we do a test on all men, to see which are inclined to think sexual coercion is ok?    I should start a topic.  

 

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Kinda like me, living my daily life.   I accept that most men aren't going to rape me/my daughters/granddaughters, but some are.  And there's no way of telling which ones are going to attack/rape or drug/rape one of us?   Just really hard to know.   Will it be a stranger, a friend, a date, a neighbor, a babysitter, a friend's father?     Is there a way to tell?   Can we do a test on all men, to see which are inclined to think sexual coercion is ok?    I should start a topic.  

 

 

Germany and some other European countries are having a rape epidemic at the moment.

I wonder why? Care to guess?

[dialamah]

49 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Germany and some other European countries are having a rape epidemic at the moment.

I wonder why? Care to guess?

Just more of the right-wing false narrative you are so fond of, actually.

Here, try some factual news:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-rape-crisis-isnt-what-it-seems/article30019623/

Quote

“What we’re hearing is a very, very extreme exaggeration based on a few isolated events, and the claim that it’s related to immigration is more or less not true at all,” says Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University who has devoted his career to the study of criminality, ethnicity and age.

(Yes, this article does quote someone who knows what he's talking about, reason enough for right-wingers to dismiss it I suppose)

Actual evidence shows that sex crime incidence unchanged between 2005 and 2014 in Sweden.

Sex crimes committed by migrants less than 4% of all sex crimes in Germany:

Quote

A detailed report seen by Germany’s Bild newspaper listed a total of 1,688 sex crimes committed by asylum seekers, refugees and illegal immigrants in 2015 – 3.6 per cent of the nationwide total of almost 47,000. 

That means that about 45,000 sex crimes were committed by legal immigrants and German citizens.  

From a paper entitled "Sexual Violence in Europe:  A refugee problem?"

Quote

Are European women in danger from an influx of Middle Eastern men with different social, religious and legal values? Using available data on rates of immigration and sexual violence, and focusing specifically on Germany and Sweden, we show that there is no direct correlation between foreign migrant influx and national rape statistics in the two identified case studies. Based on these conclusions, we then ask, why have the attacks in Germany and Sweden gained so much media attention and resulted in rising hostility toward refugees. To address this question, we examine theories of women and nationalism, and the rhetorical use of the specter of rape to mobilize the masses. We conclude by theorizing that if concern for women's rights is only used as fodder for the flame against admitting refugees, the EU will both lose the crucial opportunity to prepare for future influxes of migrants and fall prey to dangerous ethnic divisions

This paper originates at the Brigham Young university, one of the most conservative universities in the States so accusations of Liberal bias won't work here.  

I know, Brietbart and other conservative right-wing rags say there is an epidemic of rape by Muslims on white women, and since you'd rather deal in fearful fantasy and fear-mongering, you'll stick to your story.   

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by dialamah

[DogOnPorch]

And thus the problem: you actually defend the rapists.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

And thus the problem: you actually defend the rapists.

Pointing out how wrong you are is defending rapists?    Thar's a pretty moronic conclusion to make.

Edited to add:   is this accusation of defending rapists the rightwing equivalent to yelling "racist"?    

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by dialamah

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Pointing out how wrong you are is defending rapists?    Thar's a pretty moronic conclusion to make.

 

 

 

Uh-huh...

You're seriously going to tell me Europe is not having issues with Muslims and sexual assault...

 

Okay, then.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, kimmy said:

Christians believe in the Bible and are supposed to spread The Good News, but we see a vast difference among them in how they interpret the Bible and how they share their religious testimony. Why would people assume that there isn't similar variation among Muslims?

I'm sure there is variation. I know there's variation. Nevertheless, the "Muslim world' as evidenced by the cultures, values, behavior and laws of the 57 Muslim countries , are not secular minded like we in the West are. Their societies are inherently religious. Religion is a part and parcel of daily life, including the culture and laws in which they live. And you don't get to pick and choose what you accept from Islam like it was a buffet table.

That's not to say every Muslim thinks the same on every subject. Of course they don't. Do all of the Haradi think exactly alike on every issue? I'm sure they don't. Nevertheless, they don't work. None of them (well, perhaps a handful somewhere do). They dress alike, and they are extremely hostile to any female who doesn't completely cover herself. Certain types of activities are not permissible in Haradi areas in Israel - nor even in New York, where the city fathers got rid of a bicycle path because the Haradi didn't like women in shorts bicycling past their neighborhood.

So are there women in shorts bicycling through Cairo? No! Nor will you find them in other Muslim cities. Because while individuals might have different thoughts the culture, the societies, are fairly united in observing Islam's laws. Women in shorts are whores, regardless of the weather. And a whore in Muslim culture is regarded as something lower than a snake. Do they all change their minds when they leave Muslim countries? Hardly. They might mind their manners better for fear of prison, but that doesn't mean they don't think women who are, to them scantily dressed, deserve any kind of respect.

Every young woman I know, especially the blondes, talk of the different attitude among most Muslim men they meet in clubs, the much more aggressive push for sex. I doubt it's all that different elsewhere. And of course, occasionally we get glimpse of small but telling stories.

String of attacks on women wearing shorts in France prompts fears of Islamist ‘morality police’

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/09/08/string-of-attacks-on-women-wearing-shorts-in-france-prompts-fears-of-islamist-morality-police/

[Argus]

2 hours ago, kimmy said:

People are completely willing to accept that even though Christians believe the same basic tenets, they have a wide range of social and political views.  And yet many seem incapable of accepting that Muslims might also have a wide range of social and political views.

Because the actions of Muslims in the world do not vary much from the tenets of Islam.

[dialamah]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

Every young woman I know, especially the blondes, talk of the different attitude among most Muslim men they meet in clubs, the much more aggressive push for sex.

Funny, this is what I thought about American men compared to Canadian men when I was single in my 20s.

 

[dre]

17 minutes ago, Argus said:

Because the actions of Muslims in the world do not vary much from the tenets of Islam.

I don't know about that... but in any case its definitely true that when compared to the west, the Islamic world is way more theocratic and some harsh mainstream views (on women for example).

The question is... what should be done about it? Jumping up and down screaming about how bad these people are doesn't seem to help, and much of our interference in the muslim world has actually made things a lot worse. Should we limit immigration? We could, but that wont make much difference. I DO think that we should not have immigrant policy that results in large cultural gluts that end up enclaving themselves. I would rather "sprinkle" different people around the country.

One thing for sure though is that ranting about Islam makes the situation here in Canada worse. When muslims read the kind of hate speech that people like you constantly spread, they adopt a bunker mentality, and that makes it LESS likely that they will embrace Canadian culture.

I wish people on both sides would just calm the fvck down a little bit. You have way more in common with these people than you think... 99.9% of muslims are just grunts like us, struggling to make a living, feed their families, etc.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dre said:

I don't know about that... but in any case its definitely true that when compared to the west, the Islamic world is way more theocratic and some harsh mainstream views (on women for example).

The question is... what should be done about it? Jumping up and down screaming about how bad these people are doesn't seem to help, and much of our interference in the muslim world has actually made things a lot worse. Should we limit immigration? We could, but that wont make much difference. I DO think that we should not have immigrant policy that results in large cultural gluts that end up enclaving themselves. I would rather "sprinkle" different people around the country.

One thing for sure though is that ranting about Islam makes the situation here in Canada worse. When muslims read the kind of hate speech that people like you constantly spread, they adopt a bunker mentality, and that makes it LESS likely that they will embrace Canadian culture.

I wish people on both sides would just calm the fvck down a little bit. You have way more in common with these people than you think... 99.9% of muslims are just grunts like us, struggling to make a living, feed their families, etc.

Expressing disgust and contempt of disgusting and contemptible religious practices isn't hate speech. Muslims just have to realize that, when I say how awful it is that there exist punishments for blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality, etc. In the Muslim world, if they agree with me, I'm not talking about them. 

I think your 99.9% figure might be a tad generous, when it comes to believing in things like that.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dre said:

I don't know about that... but in any case its definitely true that when compared to the west, the Islamic world is way more theocratic and some harsh mainstream views (on women for example)

There's not a lot which CAN be done about what goes on over there. But this topic is about screening people who want to become Canadians for the sorts of 'harsh mainstream views' which we would prefer not to be importing here in large numbers.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Expressing disgust and contempt of disgusting and contemptible religious practices isn't hate speech.

Another thought to consider. There is very little free expression of opinion in Muslim countries. If you express opinions contrary to that of religious leaders you risk your job, your freedom and even your life. This isn't just about government either. Witness the riots and killings over a few cartoons printed in an obscure Scandinavian paper. Therefore people in Muslim countries are rarely exposed to much in the way of criticism of what we would consider barbaric practices or beliefs.

Well, if we don't make that criticism, then who will? You can be sure that leaders over there know fairly well what our collective opinion is of their medieval social values. And while It probably pisses off a lot of them it might also have at least some influence in terms of getting some of them to consider just how civilized these practices are.

And that criticism will never come from people like dre, who will be all oozing smiles and flattery about their wonderful culture and delicious foods. They'll never hear from the likes of him that anything they do might be considered primitive or barbaric, nor even that they ought to maybe consider changing some of those practices. All he'll be doing is clapping and smiling as they move along the world stage in their white robes, murder in their hearts for anyone who dares insult the prophet, their women covered head to toe, eyes downcast. Dre is all about respect, you see, for anyone who isn't white and Christian anyway.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Argus

[dre]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

There's not a lot which CAN be done about what goes on over there. But this topic is about screening people who want to become Canadians for the sorts of 'harsh mainstream views' which we would prefer not to be importing here in large numbers.

We already do that. They screen immigrants for anti-social disposition, political disposition,  socio-economic disposition, etc. That is how a potential immigrant gets SDEC, CDEC & SECCRIM certs. CSIS often will contact numerous people from an immigrants country of origin and ask them all kinds of questions. Agents around the world have even been known to visit remote villages etc to find things out about some of these people.

And I have not seen any empirical information that would suggest it isn't working. Just some anecdotes.

[Michael Hardner]

It sounds like they are looking at more variables than religion, which makes sense and isn't surprising to me. 

[Rue]

To respond to Dialamah's question about Sharia law nations, I actually would recommend the Wikepedia summary on human rights in Muslm countries. Its pretty neutral and it pretty much does not promote a picture of tolerance for non Muslims or for that matter Muslims:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Islamic_countries

Its the interpretation of Sharia law which is not separated from the Muslim religion and makes politics and religion indistinguishable that leads to state discrimination of non Muslims.

Here's an interesting discussion between Muslims on whether Sharia Law and Human Rights are compatible:

https://en.qantara.de/content/emran-qureshi-heba-raouf-ezzat-are-sharia-laws-and-human-rights-compatible

I tend to support Khaled Abou El Fadl, known in the Muslim world as a progressive, He criticizes the  Muslim fundamentalist status quo as:  "Instead of Islam being a moral vision given to humanity, it becomes constructed into the antithesis of the West. In the world constructed by these groups, there is no Islam; there is only opposition to the West."

He also stated: " These corrosive ideas do not spring from a vacuum. They arise instead from impoverished Salafi and Wahhabi discourses, which are corroding Islam from within. There is a straight line between the Salafi/Wahhabi interpretations - a puritanical, anti-rationalist, misogynistic Islam with a punitive, intolerant Sharia - and the violence,                                                    which now bloodstains our faith. "

Heba Ezzat another Islamic scholar who you can read above disagrees with him and says the two are compatible.

With due respect to her the human rights record in today's Muslim sharia law nations is not good and it shows rampant discrimination and state institutionalized values and religious doctrine enshrined into law that is anti-thetical to the fundamental democratic and human rights principles we take for granted in Canadian law.

Views as to marriage, sexual relations, sexual practice and preference, among other values clash.

If people come from countries where they want to continue traditional, conservative, fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, they will come into friction with current Canadian values and something has to give. The first generation retaining their values can segregate and in effect cacoon into ethnic ghettoes and not change and enshrine their way of life within the ghettos. but their children soon find themselves stepping out of the ghetto into malls, schools, universities, work places. They learn to adapt and assimilate while their parents pressure them not to assimilate, i.e., to retain certain clothing and behaviour.

The third generation becomes even more removed from the first and so on.

Resisting marriage outside Islam, or with people of different cultures, or dealing with gay Muslims or Muslims who don't want to wear beards or cover up, etc., all arise.

Some young Muslims are pressured within certain Mosques to revert to a very strict fundamental code being accused of being sell outs. Others detach slowly and intellectually to a more neutral position, and some become progressives challenging traditional Islamic values believing Islam should be reformed.

Islam is pretty much where Christianity was in the Puritanical days and of the days of Joan of Arc where people were burned at the stake as witches.

The majority of its people still do not read and until that happens, until the majority of Muslims are reading, they can't develop critical thought, the next process required in questioning fundamentalist interpretations.

Youth of the Muslim world who do read and have been influenced by cell phones are being assimilated into the Coca Cola Adidas Rap culture of the US not fundamentalist Isla.

Make no mistake the biggest enemy of Muslim fundamentalism and traditionalism is American culture via Pepsi-Coke-Beyoncé transmissions.

The resistance to Beyoncé is probably as futile as the resistance to Chinese world market predatory pricing.

The point is in the interim, its naïve to think traditional fundamentalist Muslims will simply come to Canada and suddenly be eating ham sandwitches at Tim Horton's.

We are going to have many not adjusting and experiencing the social adjustment disorders expected of people caught between two incompatible social systems, alcoholism, dopmestic violence, sexual assault, depression, alienation leading to recruitment in terrorist cells.

These will be a minority but they will non-the-less evolve. Its only a matter of time until home grown Muslim terrorists in Canada engage in violent actions.

Does this mean we hate all Muslims. No. But I do always ask myself one question. With all the tribulations our native peoples went through, with the exception of the Louis Riel rebellion when you consider what they have gone through they have been far more peaceful than others.

Is there something Muslims or anyone displaced and caught between societies could learn from our native peoples? We tend to think of them as alcoholic and self destructive. The point is they have spiritual based believe systems that Muslims, Jews and Christians once followed and have steered away from and perhaps if they re-adapted could learn from to adjust better.

I know that sounds strange but I think teaching aboriginal customs and traditions to all in-coming Canadians would be beneficial. Seems to me we all need to learn to respect the land as a living breathing organism that we all are here for a brief time on to share.

We all need a slap in face and learn to  show some humility and respect our place on the planet.

 

 

 

 

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dre said:

We already do that. They screen immigrants for anti-social disposition, political disposition,  socio-economic disposition, etc. That is how a potential immigrant gets SDEC, CDEC & SECCRIM certs. CSIS often will contact numerous people from an immigrants country of origin and ask them all kinds of questions. Agents around the world have even been known to visit remote villages etc to find things out about some of these people.

And I have not seen any empirical information that would suggest it isn't working. Just some anecdotes.

Yeah, that's not actually true. Sorry. There is nothing in the screening criteria which even hints at things like anti-social 'disposition'. We screen for criminal records and terrorist affiliation, and even that is just a matter of reviewing records. That's it. only 1 in 10 is ever interviewed face to face by an immigration agent. The only time CSIS gets involved is AFTER suspicion has already been aroused, usually because their name is the same as someone on international watch lists, or in the case of the marriage fraud people, when the alleged happy couple causes suspicion through some sort of error.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It sounds like they are looking at more variables than religion, which makes sense and isn't surprising to me. 

They're not looking at anything. They're reviewing documents. That's it in the vast majority of cases. No one looks into the social views of potential immigrants, nor do those social views factor into acceptance or rejection.

[Argus]

29 minutes ago, Rue said:

If people come from countries where they want to continue traditional, conservative, fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, they will come into friction with current Canadian values and something has to give. The first generation retaining their values can segregate and in effect cacoon into ethnic ghettoes and not change and enshrine their way of life within the ghettos. but their children soon find themselves stepping out of the ghetto into malls, schools, universities, work places. They learn to adapt and assimilate while their parents pressure them not to assimilate, i.e., to retain certain clothing and behaviour.

The third generation becomes even more removed from the first and so on.

And has that happened with the Haradim? Nope. So what makes you think it will happen with Muslims?

It has been out tradition that immigrant children are far more Canadian than their parents, and embrace most Canadian values. But that is from people who come from different cultures which are NOT actively supported by their own religious beliefs. Where religion is involved Canadianization slows dramatically. Why are so many young, Canadian born Muslim women embracing the Hajib and Burqa? To become more Canadian? I don't think so.

[?Impact]

On 12/23/2016 at 1:33 PM, DogOnPorch said:

So you finally admit Trudeau said the Shadada which is all one needs to do to become a Muslim....no tests...no quizzes...you're in. No getting out, either.

What about نیّة‎‎?

On 12/23/2016 at 5:52 PM, Bryan said:

Yes, Colleges are indoctrination camps for liberal ideologies. 

conservatives are indoctrinated in the local bar

On 12/25/2016 at 1:51 PM, cannuck said:

If anyone REALLY gives a flying purple frick about mankind, you would be figuring out how to return to a sustainable level of population (say one billion or so).  One of the big problems is cultures where breeding like rabbits is the norm.

So what should we do about Donald Trump and his five children?

29 minutes ago, Argus said:

Why are so many young, Canadian born Muslim women embracing the Hajib

Still afraid of a piece of clothing? You know, that necktie you wear has been symbolic of many things over the years: genteel birth, social rank, coming of age, blind following of tradition and, of course, male sexuality.

Edited December 28, 2016 by ?Impact