Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Canadianjim said: Geezuz man. read the reports. Do you really believe the Americans?. Hundreds were killed in abu graighb . Utter nonsense. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, eyeball said: Our country does and we're responsible for what our country does. No, I said we're responsible for our country's actions. Are you suggesting we're using different dictionaries and the meanings of the words we're using are not the same? That's not what I was talking about. We use the same dictionary, I think. We just disagree about how powerful we are. We most definitely are not responsible for what our country does. Well, I'm not. You can take responsibility if you want. To do so does imply you can do something about it. Quote
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, Argus said: Utter nonsense. Yet you haven't read the human rights reports have you? Quote
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 1 minute ago, kactus said: I have slready given you the answer.... We do have our own share of fanatics in the west that have same ambitions as ISIS. When a truck goes off in a market these idiots say I told you so...All moslems are all the same. Same way as ISIS loves to carry out terrorist activitues and say I told you so the west hates all modlems...Get it? And yet, nobody is setting off bombs in mosques, now are they? Muslims are not being shot down in the street. Therefore, you are proven wrong. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Canadianjim said: Yet you haven't read the human rights reports have you? Clearly not the ones you prefer. But this is not the fake news topic. I see one, possibly two deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse Perhaps you'd like to discuss what happens routinely in iranian prisons? Electrocution, rape and drug-induced confessions: Political prisoner reveals the reality of brutal torture and hangings in Iran's most notorious jail - months after his escape to Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse Edited December 21, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
kactus Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Utter nonsense. Here's one: http://www.president-bush.com/torture-deaths.html Quote
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Argus said: Clearly not the ones you prefer. But this is not the fake news topic. I see one, possibly two deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse When using wikipedia the critical thing you look for is sources. Here are the the sources of the article you posted. AMERICANS each limited in what they personally saw. One exception which in no way implies everything that went on. Seymour M. Hersh (2004). Chain of Command: The Road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib. New York: Harper Collins. ISBN 0-06-019591-6. Master Sargeant Michael Clemens, Special Investigator (2010). The Secrets of Abu Ghraib Revealed: American Soldiers on Trial. Dulles, Virginia: Potomac Books. ISBN 1-59797-441-2. McChrystal, Stanley A. (2013). My share of the task: A memoir. Penguin. ISBN 978-1-59184-475-4. Greenberg, Karen J.; Dretel, Joshua L. (2005). The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521853248. Edited December 21, 2016 by Canadianjim Quote
kactus Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Argus said: And yet, nobody is setting off bombs in mosques, now are they? Muslims are not being shot down in the street. Therefore, you are proven wrong. So? Just because we don't close mosques or shut down moslems doesn't negate the fact that there are fanatics amongst us who see all moslems the same... Edited December 21, 2016 by kactus Quote
eyeball Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, bcsapper said: We most definitely are not responsible for what our country does. Well, I guess this difference in opinion is why middle-wingers and lefties are poles apart. Are right-wingers as far away from the middle on this too? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, eyeball said: Well, I guess this difference in opinion is why middle-wingers and lefties are poles apart. Are right-wingers as far away from the middle on this too? How can you possibly take responsibility for something you have exactly zero control over? That way, madness lies. Quote
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, kactus said: Here's one: http://www.president-bush.com/torture-deaths.html It mentions a couple, and a couple suspected. Hardly hundreds. And in any even this is off topic. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, kactus said: So? Just because we don't close mosques or shut down moslems doesn't negate the fact that there are fanatics amongst us who see all moslems the same... Clearly it indicates that our society is FAR and away more tolerant, and that even our 'fanatics' are of the non-violent sort. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
kactus Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, bcsapper said: How can you possibly take responsibility for something you have exactly zero control over? That way, madness lies. The Germans brought Hitler to power. Would you say they had zero control over? Quote
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, Canadianjim said: When using wikipedia the critical thing you look for is sources. Here are the the sources of the article you posted. AMERICANS each limited in what they personally saw. One exception which in no way implies everything that went on. Seymour M. Hersh (2004). Chain of Command: The Road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib. New York: Harper Collins. ISBN 0-06-019591-6. Master Sargeant Michael Clemens, Special Investigator (2010). The Secrets of Abu Ghraib Revealed: American Soldiers on Trial. Dulles, Virginia: Potomac Books. ISBN 1-59797-441-2. McChrystal, Stanley A. (2013). My share of the task: A memoir. Penguin. ISBN 978-1-59184-475-4. Greenberg, Karen J.; Dretel, Joshua L. (2005). The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521853248. I'm not going to read books to get cites for your beliefs. Any idiot can put anything he wants in a book. Just ask Donald Trump - or his ghostwriter, who confirmed how often he lied. The generally accepted numbers are in Wikipedia. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, Argus said: It mentions a couple, and a couple suspected. Hardly hundreds. And in any even this is off topic. Here is from even the article you posted. The Abu Ghraib prison in the town of Abu Ghraib was one of the most notorious prisons in Iraq during the government of Saddam Hussein. The prison was used to hold approximately 50,000 men and women in poor conditions, and torture and execution were frequent.[ Do you understand what that means ?torture and execution were frequent.[ Quote
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Argus said: I'm not going to read books to get cites for your beliefs. Any idiot can put anything he wants in a book. Just ask Donald Trump - or his ghostwriter, who confirmed how often he lied. The generally accepted numbers are in Wikipedia. 2 minutes ago, Argus said: I'm not going to read books to get cites for your beliefs. Any idiot can put anything he wants in a book. Just ask Donald Trump - or his ghostwriter, who confirmed how often he lied. The generally accepted numbers are in Wikipedia. Edited December 21, 2016 by Canadianjim Quote
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Canadianjim said: Here is from even the article you posted. The Abu Ghraib prison in the town of Abu Ghraib was one of the most notorious prisons in Iraq during the government of Saddam Hussein. The prison was used to hold approximately 50,000 men and women in poor conditions, and torture and execution were frequent.[ Do you understand what that means ?torture and execution were frequent.[ Do you understand that western standards are considerably higher than that in the Arab world, and that what we call 'torture' would be called 'gentle tickling' in a place like Iran? As for executions, not all executions were illegal. Even the Iranians, I imagine, sometimes execute people legitimately. Get back to topic, please. You are free to start another topic on Abu ghraib. Edited December 21, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, kactus said: The Germans brought Hitler to power. Would you say they had zero control over? Those who didn't want him? Yeah I would say that. Quote
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, Argus said: Do you understand that western standards are considerably higher than that in the Arab world, and that what we call 'torture' would be called 'gentle tickling' in a place like Iran? As for executions, not all executions were illegal. Even the Iranians, I imagine, sometimes execute people legitimately. Americans torture. The kidnapped a canadian citizen and had him tortured for a year in Syria. You sure you are a Canadian? Quote
eyeball Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: How can you possibly take responsibility for something you have exactly zero control over? That way, madness lies. By protesting, by speaking truth to power, by not surrendering to helplessness or the hopelessly circular and maddening rhetoric of people who have. Madness is right here right now. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Posted December 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Canadianjim said: Americans torture. The kidnapped a canadian citizen and had him tortured for a year in Syria. You sure you are a Canadian? Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Canadianjim Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, Argus said: Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It's all relevant. Nothing happens in isolation. Quote
kactus Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Argus said: Do you understand that western standards are considerably higher than that in the Arab world, and that what we call 'torture' would be called 'gentle tickling' in a place like Iran? As for executions, not all executions were illegal. Even the Iranians, I imagine, sometimes execute people legitimately. Non-sequitur. just remember you were the same person who thought iranians were arabs and all of the sudden become an expert on iran... at the end of the day that's what it comes down. Our standards are better than them. That justifies the means. Hey ho... Edited December 21, 2016 by kactus Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 27 minutes ago, Argus said: And yet, nobody is setting off bombs in mosques, now are they? Muslims are not being shot down in the street. Therefore, you are proven wrong. So are you saying that Muslims living in Canada are not setting off bombs? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Guest Posted December 21, 2016 Report Posted December 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, eyeball said: By protesting, by speaking truth to power, by not surrendering to helplessness or the hopelessly circular and maddening rhetoric of people who have. Madness is right here right now. By doing that you oppose it. You don't take responsibility for it. Your opposition will probably be meaningless, but if it makes you feel good, go ahead. In some cases it can have meaning, but it would have to be organized, major, and have a real possibility of costing some votes at the next election. If you get a petition together calling for a cancellation of all arms sales to SA, I'll sign it. Quote
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