Argus Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, carepov said: The boost in population growth from increasing Canada’s annual immigration levels by 150,000 would reduce the old age dependency ratio (the ratio of seniors to working-age Canadians) by 1.6 percentage points below where it is projected to be in 2030 (specifically, from the forecasted ratio of 37.3 percent to 35.7 percent), reducing fiscal strain on the system and the need for tax increases or benefit cuts." Sounds good. Unfortunately, as I've already pointed out, the Tories spent ten years trying to focus on skilled immigrants only to find the economic success of immigrants deteriorating further. Remember that we have a progressive tax system. The lower 50% of the population contributes only 4% of income taxes collected. Thus unless immigrants are quite successful then they not only are not going to ease the tax burden of retiring seniors but add to that burden. They won't even be paying for the services the government supplies to THEM, never mind help pay for seniors. And while it's true the federal liberals will hire and promote every immigrant they can find, regardless of ability, the private sector tends to be a lot less charitable. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
carepov Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, Argus said: Sounds good. Unfortunately, as I've already pointed out, the Tories spent ten years trying to focus on skilled immigrants only to find the economic success of immigrants deteriorating further. Remember that we have a progressive tax system. The lower 50% of the population contributes only 4% of income taxes collected. Thus unless immigrants are quite successful then they not only are not going to ease the tax burden of retiring seniors but add to that burden. They won't even be paying for the services the government supplies to THEM, never mind help pay for seniors. And while it's true the federal liberals will hire and promote every immigrant they can find, regardless of ability, the private sector tends to be a lot less charitable. It is too early to judge the economic success of immigrants arriving in the last 10 years - it is a long term investment. In most studies that I've seen refugees are lumped in with economic immigrants greatly skewing the data. My understanding is that economic immigrants need to save up tens of thousands of dollars in order to be eligible. Many Canadians are unable to save that much! Also, they tend to me more entrepreneurial than the average Canadian and I would also argue that they appreciate the freedom and opportunities more than the average Canadian that tend more to take our good fortune for granted. Also, economic immigrants will certainly be healthier than the average Canadian and therefore use less of our health care dollars. Quote
?Impact Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Have you taken a ride in major and even smaller Canadian cities, It is bumper to bumper and crowded with traffic jam everywhere. Interesting tangent, perhaps a new thread is needed but I will start it here as it is related to immigration. Canada is far from crowded, but yes our major cities certainly are. 100+ years ago when immigrants were settling here, they were given encouragement to establish a presence in the hinterland*, things like land grands, etc. While other countries also have large cities, I don't believe that many have their economic activity as concentrated in so few areas as Canada. Could we somehow use immigration policy (or other means) to help address this, while of course not violating our Charter rights. *hinterland - I don't know if that is the best noun here, but I couldn't resist using it as I doubt I have ever used that word before other than to mock television commercials. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 6 hours ago, Smallc said: Canada has always been 'swamped' by people of different cultures. That's why Canada exists. My point was violent cultures. Quote
dre Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 On 10/22/2016 at 8:55 AM, Argus said: It's more because we have a very tightly knit group of artistic, media, political and academic elites who have a similar groupthink which will not tolerate any opposition to immigration. They're very left of centre and highly intolerant of anyone who varies from their joint political/social message. No politician who opposes immigration dares to speak up because they will instantly be attacked as a racist and xenophobe. This is just another one of your silly attempts to blame all the worlds problems on some left wing conspiracy. The reality is that the biggest drivers of increased immigration are the business and banking communities, and economists. Those are hardly bastions of left wing ideology. Quote Canada’s population increases a little more than 1.2 per cent per year, and immigration accounts for about two-thirds of that increase. Canada welcomed 271,662 new permanent residents in 2015 in addition to hundreds of thousands of international students and temporary workers, and Statistics Canada projects that immigration will continue to be a key driver of population growth in the future. All of those people translate into big potential business for banks, and the major banks across Canada are vying for a piece of that booming market. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 52 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: My point was violent cultures. Well according to violent crime statistics the United States, Mexico, South Africa and Russia are among the most violent cultures. Do we stop immigration and tourism from all those places? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bonam Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 12 minutes ago, dre said: This is just another one of your silly attempts to blame all the worlds problems on some left wing conspiracy. The reality is that the biggest drivers of increased immigration are the business and banking communities, and economists. Those are hardly bastions of left wing ideology. Business leaders want more immigration to keep wages low. The "left wing" wants more immigration to ensure "diversity". But no one gives a damn what the average Canadian wants. Quote
dre Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 Just now, Bonam said: Business leaders want more immigration to keep wages low. Actually they want more customers primarily. Especially the banking sector. And I can tell you one thing... If you think "leftists" and "diversity" hold anywhere near as much sway over government policy as the banking sector, the business sector, and the governments own economic advisers you are just kidding yourself. This country has not had a leftist government at the federal level ever in history, and for the last 40 years we have had a steady stream of pro-business governments, privatization, trade liberalization, etc. And not all leftists care about diversity. its retarded to cast this as a left vs right issue. Some of the MOST anti immigration people I know are left leaning trade unionists. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bonam Posted October 25, 2016 Report Posted October 25, 2016 1 minute ago, dre said: Actually they want more customers primarily. Especially the banking sector. And I can tell you one thing... If you think "leftists" and "diversity" hold anywhere near as much sway over government policy as the banking sector, the business sector, and the governments own economic advisers you are just kidding yourself. This country has not had a leftist government at the federal level ever in history, and for the last 40 years we have had a steady stream of pro-business governments, privatization, trade liberalization, etc. And not all leftists care about diversity. its retarded to cast this as a left vs right issue. Some of the MOST anti immigration people I know are left leaning trade unionists. I'm not casting this as "left" vs "right". By the way, "left" and "right" in the Canadian federal politics context means Conservatives and Liberals (and NDP), we're not talking about the global spectrum. Clearly both Liberals and Conservatives support high levels of immigration. Conservatives raised it to roughly the present levels under Mulroney (for political reasons as Argus has frequently cited), and the Liberals under Trudeau want to do the same thing again, and like anyone else they want to put a veneer of an economic justification over it but just the reality is it's just another political move. Immigration is supported by many on both the left and right, for separate reasons. And both Liberals and Conservatives are hungry for immigrant votes. But the support for immigration among the general population seems to be much less universal than it is among politicians, bankers, economists, and academics. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 21 hours ago, dre said: Well according to violent crime statistics the United States, Mexico, South Africa and Russia are among the most violent cultures. Do we stop immigration and tourism from all those places? I didn't say violent crimes. I said violent cultures. Quote
dre Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I didn't say violent crimes. I said violent cultures. Wouldn't violent cultures be the ones where people commit a lot of violence? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 22 hours ago, dre said: This is just another one of your silly attempts to blame all the worlds problems on some left wing conspiracy. The reality is that the biggest drivers of increased immigration are the business and banking communities, and economists. Those are hardly bastions of left wing ideology. No one is talking about any kind of conspiracy. You have to be brain dead to not realize how in synch the central Canada media, academics and political elites are. I brought up their universal praise of Islam before, and their horror when Harper tried to ban the niqab from citizenship signing ceremonies, and their disdain for Kellie Leitch over her 'values test'. The other day it was in evidence once more as Tory Steven Blaney threw his hat into the ring and talked about the need to ban the niqab from public service. The people on CTV and CBC were sneering in amusement, talking about how out of touch Blaney is and all I could do was shake my head at how out of touch they are. Blaney's appeal on this issue will get him tons of support in Quebec, just as a start, and lots more from around the country. But these oblivious talking heads, even the ones who pretend they're consrevative, acted like he'd started his campaign with a major faux pas and would be a gift to the Liberals. What country do these people live in anyway? There is deep antipathy for these symbols of Muslim religious extremism out among regular Canadians. I hear it and see it all the time. As for bankers and business. You know what, they can't donate much money to the parties any more. They're not nearly as important in driving immigration as the organized ethnic groups who can promise hundreds of thousands of votes come next election. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 On 10/21/2016 at 4:25 PM, dre said: Its not a theory... unless you think all immigrants live on the streets. Most don't. That means they create demand for housing, which is propping up the entire services sector. The Fraser institute study doesnt look at any of the macro economic effects of having a growing population. The Fraser institute report simply looks at direct inputs and outputs. Do they take into account the extra taxes paid by businesses who sell immigrants products and services? No. Do they take into account the jobs created by the services sector to meet the needs of a growing population, and the taxes paid by people in those jobs? No. Do they take into account that without a growing population there's almost zero demand for new homes and the real-estate sector and all the other sectors that rely on it (construction, financial services, structural engineering, materials suppliers) will all go into the tank? No. Almost all of the most wealthy countries in the world have had sustained immigration for many many decades. Most western countries have the same sort of targets that we have. They try to keep the population growing between 1 and 3 percent. And that's not going to change any time soon because governments and the economists and business interests that advise them know how bat-shit crazy it would be to take steps that curtailed population growth. The Frasier report tells us how much it is costing "Tax payers" for immigration.....It does not record any other expenses or gains made by public companies or individuals.....Lets here what it costs us currently for immigration.....27 bil tax payers dollars.....What you have failed to prove or even provide is how much of that came back into government coffers....you make it sound like the federal government invested 27 bil and and out in the black....so fill us in on the theory with some facts..... I agree with you , most immigrants do not live in the streets.....But I hope your not trying to tell me immigrants drive our housing markets, which in turn drives our service sector.....last year Canada let in a total of 300,000 plus immigrants and refugees.....for a total cost of 27 BIL dollars.....last year there was roughly 207,000 new housing starts.....in fact the estimate for next year is going to be less according to CMHC web site.....down to approx. 159,000 to 190,000 new home starts.....I find this interesting because you automatically assume that when a immigrant arrives a new home is built....But I guess not according to the numbers.....one they are to small, meaning some immigrants are living some where,we don't know...second we would also assume that of all those new starts not one of them went to already established Canadians.......which is crazy......If what your saying is true we would have much more new homes being built....Now CMHC does give credit do where it is do....new immigrants help with the drive to build new homes......but as we have already shown, clearly they are not the driving factor..... Quote Do they take into account the extra taxes paid by businesses who sell immigrants products and services? No. Do they take into account the jobs created by the services sector to meet the needs of a growing population, and the taxes paid by people in those jobs? No Do you really think that after all is said and done, the federal government is going to collect 27 BIL dollars worth of new taxes.....Because their is something else the Frasier report fails to mention.....the cost of all the grants or provincial assistance to assist with building new construction such as low income housing, new infra structures such as highways, bi ways, new water, and sewage disposal systems and plants, plus other projects such as subways, over passes, new roads to new communities....the snow removal, etc etc etc ....because when we add to the population all those costs go up as well...... Quote Do they take into account that without a growing population there's almost zero demand for new homes and the real-estate sector and all the other sectors that rely on it (construction, financial services, structural engineering, materials suppliers) will all go into the tank? No. Just to clarify are you saying that Canadians do not move or grow their families then move at all.....that immigration is the sole driver of our real estate market.....Now I'm from New Brunswick.... and new homes are being built here by the thousands....and in this part of the country I'm sorry immigrants stand out.....and while some new home s are for immigrants the majority of these new home owners are good old fashion Canadians.....3 or 4 th generation Canadians....And i'm sure it is the way across a lot of the country.... Most wealthy nations or western nations do a lot of things that do not make sense.....Middle east ring a bell.....so the old adage that every one is doing it it must be true.....I have drawn attention to the old ways .....and I did not say curtail population growth.....I suggested using that 27 Bil it costs us in Immigration fees to promote other ways internally..... We already know that family size is controlled by finances of the family unit.....the est for 2015/16 for new borns was 392,902.....if all we need to do is add 250, 300,000 more to that number....27 BIL: would go along way to help make that happen....Not very good at math.....but how much would that be if we divided it by say 300,000..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 1:20 AM, Smallc said: Plus, the idea that there would suddenly be $21B extra is completely ludicrous. Ludicrous....well if your not spending it on immigration where does it go.....does it just evaporate into the digital world.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 1:15 AM, Moonlight Graham said: Politicians don't want that. They want women working and generating tax revenue and GDP. They want all-day kindergarten so that women can work. Then they want to bring in immigrants to make up for the loss in birth-rate. Women also want to work. Politicians want a lot of things.....free day care was a NDP idea was it not.....do we have free day right now....is it control any way, other than in Quebec....I get it.... everyone wants women to work....dual incomes means more middle class.....but here is a question what is our unemployment rate at right now.....in some places it is up to what 14 -20 %.....we going to fix that with immigration......a lot of things wrong with this country.....and it needs to be a balanced approached.....not just lets open up the front doors and bring in immigrants at huge costs to the tax payers because that is what we have always done.....Because women want to work, and we need all day family care centers.... Women can still work, nothing changes that.....even when you start paying them more to have children.....I see working women have children all the time....it still happens....maybe part of that 27 Bil can go into providing child care as well..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 26, 2016 Report Posted October 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Ludicrous....well if your not spending it on immigration where does it go.....does it just evaporate into the digital world.... Well other posters have debunked the figure already - but that total certainly wouldn't go in to government revenue. Quote
taxme Posted October 27, 2016 Report Posted October 27, 2016 On 10/25/2016 at 8:07 AM, Smallc said: Canada has always been 'swamped' by people of different cultures. That's why Canada exists. Canada's main immigrants use to come from Britain and Europe and Australia. Now it is being swamped by immigrants from all over the world bringing with them their many different languages,cultures,religions,heritage and traditions which were once unknown in Canada before the sixties. Some of those new immigrants have since conflicted with how things were done in Canada and they were able to have laws changed to suit their religions or cultures. Since Canada changed it's immigration policy back in the sixties we have seen a steady growth of immigrants who have nothing to do with the Canadian hosts and their culture, values and traditions. Canada existed well before our immigration policy was changed, and we would still exist if it were not changed in the first place. But thanks to a certain ethnic group they were able to change the immigration policy and swamp Canada with a different set of people. Downtown Toronto,Vancouver and Montreal will tell you that the new immigrants are slowly taking over this country. Not good. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted October 27, 2016 Author Report Posted October 27, 2016 7 hours ago, Army Guy said: Politicians want a lot of things.....free day care was a NDP idea was it not.....do we have free day right now....is it control any way, other than in Quebec....I get it.... everyone wants women to work....dual incomes means more middle class.....but here is a question what is our unemployment rate at right now.....in some places it is up to what 14 -20 %.....we going to fix that with immigration......a lot of things wrong with this country.....and it needs to be a balanced approached.....not just lets open up the front doors and bring in immigrants at huge costs to the tax payers because that is what we have always done.....Because women want to work, and we need all day family care centers.... But do immigrants create more economic growth than they cost? Yes they need some tax dollars to support them and process them etc., but they also work, they're helping to produce goods and services that Canadian businesses sell, they're helping to create wealth, they're making money and then buying Canadian goods/services and paying taxes. It's a completely different world now but immigration is what grew this country in the first place. And many of them didn't have much money, they were given a plot of land in the middle of nowhere so they could farm and survive & feed their families. I'm not saying I agree with an immigration hike, but we need to consider the costs/benefits of immigration in general, and the different kinds of immigrants and their value to us. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Argus Posted October 27, 2016 Report Posted October 27, 2016 16 hours ago, Smallc said: Well other posters have debunked the figure already - but that total certainly wouldn't go in to government revenue. Disagreed with does not equal 'debunked'. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 On 10/26/2016 at 8:51 PM, Smallc said: Well other posters have debunked the figure already - but that total certainly wouldn't go in to government revenue. Ok, so lets get this straight in Sask .....when they use government funding to fund a program do they use government funding ....or tax payers funding or something else....and if there is funding ear marked for say immigration and it is not used what happens to the money according to you it vanish....perhaps you can explain that magic trick....for some one not so smart as you..... As for the debunking, i'm sorry I did ask for a source where it did just that, and instead I got some chirping from you....I'd like a source that says what the cost of current immigration costs based on 250,000 immigrants and 50,000 refugees......and if the fraiser report is so out of wack why was it not debunked on national TV or media outlets.....if you can show me proof of that i'd be glad to sit down and STFU..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: But do immigrants create more economic growth than they cost? Yes they need some tax dollars to support them and process them etc., but they also work, they're helping to produce goods and services that Canadian businesses sell, they're helping to create wealth, they're making money and then buying Canadian goods/services and paying taxes. It's a completely different world now but immigration is what grew this country in the first place. And many of them didn't have much money, they were given a plot of land in the middle of nowhere so they could farm and survive & feed their families. I'm not saying I agree with an immigration hike, but we need to consider the costs/benefits of immigration in general, and the different kinds of immigrants and their value to us. Yes they do all that, but you and some others on here are forgetting the other stuff they also create, the need for new road networks, plus the maintence such asrepairs, snow removal etc etc.......Not to mention at some point these cities "they" collect in become to crowded, meaning new infra structure is needed sub ways, high ways, sewage and water treatment, garbage sites, and collection, power needs grow....meaning so does that infra structure....a lot of these projects are split with the federal government all of it adding to the bill which at last source was quoted at 27 bil tax payers dollars ....which could be dumped back into taxpayers pockets in the form of new tax breaks or monthly checks for children.....why is that so hard to swallow.....because it is new, it automatically will not work......well sir, it worked back in the day....when the average family was 4 to 5 kids..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Moonlight Graham Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Yes they do all that, but you and some others on here are forgetting the other stuff they also create, the need for new road networks, plus the maintence such asrepairs, snow removal etc etc.......Not to mention at some point these cities "they" collect in become to crowded, meaning new infra structure is needed sub ways, high ways, sewage and water treatment, garbage sites, and collection, power needs grow....meaning so does that infra structure....a lot of these projects are split with the federal government all of it adding to the bill which at last source was quoted at 27 bil tax payers dollars ... All of those things you mentioned is a byproduct of population growth, no matter if it's immigrants or Canadian-born. You need to realize that immigrants pay taxes like everyone else, so they're paying for all of this new infrastructure the same as you are. They work, they buy houses, they pay taxes etc Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Smallc Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Ok, so lets get this straight in Sask .....when they use government funding to fund a program do they use government funding ....or tax payers funding or something else....and if there is funding ear marked for say immigration and it is not used what happens to the money according to you it vanish....perhaps you can explain that magic trick....for some one not so smart as you..... According to me, it circulates through the economy and grows as a result. You just have a closed minded agenda. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 Yes they are , along with all the reasons you mention that immigrants create as well, with one exception that 27 bil dollars of tax payers money has been returned to Canadians....to spur on our own population growth spurt.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Smallc said: According to me, it circulates through the economy and grows as a result. You just have a closed minded agenda. Yes I have a close mind.....when DND returns millions and in some cases Bils back into the government where does that money go.....does it vanish....as you've said....is it used else where.....or is it declared a surplus........ Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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