blackbird Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, segnosaur said: Not sure about you, but I've never engaged in fraud (see: Trump University), or bribery (see: Pam Bondi). I certainly can't say that I'm not a sinner... but I think its pretty clear that Trump is a bigger sinner than I am, and probably a bigger sinner than the vast majority. (He is certainly a bigger sinner than Clinton.) I'm pretty sure if someone's sins involve multi-million dollar fraud, and/or huge bribes to political figures, your sins are going to be pretty visible regardless of who you are. I don't believe all those allegations about Trump. I don't consider Trump as a criminal. He has made good promises and is doing what he can, although he is up against a lot of obstacles in the system, like sanctuary cities, courts that don't respect federal authority to control who comes into the country, etc. Clinton would do nothing. The Obama administration had done little or nothing about all the illegals who have committed crimes. Obama and Clinton wanted to bring in large numbers of refugees that could include radicals that could further endanger America. Trump wants to bring back thousands of jobs that have fled to Mexico and China. This appeals to a lot of people more than all the questionable claims about Trump's character. Clinton would have been just more of the same, i.e. cutting jobs in the energy sector to fight climate change and give more money to the UN to promote globalism. Edited March 27, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 1 minute ago, blackbird said: I don't believe all those allegations about Trump. I don't consider Trump as a criminal. Sure, because people who are totally innocent end up getting sued and have to settle for millions upon millions of dollars. He has made good promises and is doing what he can, although he is up against a lot of obstacles in the system. By obsticales do you mean things like the constitution? Clinton would do nothing. You keep claiming that. I don't think you know what the definition of that word means. The Obama administration had done little or nothing about all the illegals who have committed crimes. Under Obama, the American immigration system announced they would: "prioritize convicted criminals and threats to public safety, border security, and national security." Sounds to me like they had an interest in dealing with those who commit crimes. Obama and Clinton wanted to bring in large numbers of refugees that could include radicals that could further endanger America. First of all, any refugee attempting to get into the U.S. goes through a rather significant screening process... Typically over a year long, and involving interviews by multiple agencies. (And often those refugees are taken from refugee camps where they have been living for months.) While you can never be completely sure, the chance that any of those refugees would be a "radical endangering America" is tiny. We are talking a chance of 1 in billions. You're many more times likely to be struck by lighting than killed in a terrorist attack organized by a refugee from Syria/Iraq. http://www.vox.com/2016/9/20/12986886/donald-trump-jr-terrorist-skittles-wrong Secondly, those refugees are often fleeing some truly horrific conditions.... women are sexually abused, children are indoctrinated. Men can be killed if they don't fold their hands correctly in prayer. It seems to me that the "christian" thing to do would be to recognize when someone is suffering, and to try to help those people (even if the result is microscopically tiny chance of being harmed as a result. Ironic... Trump gets much of his support from supposed evangelical christians, and enacts a policy that seems to fly in the face of what Jebus would actually want. I guess the big take-away from this is: Evangelical Christians=Stark-raving Hypocrites. At least those women who are sexually abused by Isis won't have to worry about having abortions. Trump wants to bring back thousands of jobs that have fled to Mexico and China. He may want to, but those jobs are not coming back. Even if he managed to get some factories to relocate back to the U.S., automation means that they will not be employing as many people. Those jobs are gone for good.. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/11/21/why-trumps-factory-job-promises-wont-pan-out-in-one-chart/ Trump should have known that. His repeated claim that he was going to bring back the jobs is a lie. Lying makes baby Jebus cry. Do you want baby Jebus to cry? Clinton would have been just more of the same, i.e. cutting jobs in the energy sector to fight climate change... Yes, because nothing makes Baby Jebus smile more than the thought of millions of people on the earth subject to scorching temperatures and poisoned air. All praise baby Jebus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 He is standing up for America, not giving away the country. The wall will create lots of jobs and keep out lots of criminals. China built the great wall, a good example to keep out the barbarian hordes. Trump will do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 44 minutes ago, blackbird said: He is standing up for America, not giving away the country. The wall will create lots of jobs and keep out lots of criminals. China built the great wall, a good example to keep out the barbarian hordes. Trump will do the same. Don't you think the technology of building walls is a few thousand years old? Walls are useful, when armies with bows and arrows would attack a city. Then someone invented large cannons and spies. Walls became obsolete. Today, we don't need walls. We need firewalls. To save us from Russian hackers who hack our elections and spread false news to influence the outcome of elections Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Charlie said: Don't you think the technology of building walls is a few thousand years old? Walls are useful, when armies with bows and arrows would attack a city. Then someone invented large cannons and spies. Walls became obsolete. Today, we don't need walls. We need firewalls. To save us from Russian hackers who hack our elections and spread false news to influence the outcome of elections Just ask any of the border guards patrolling the U.S. with Mexico if they think a wall would be helpful. They are catching illegals every day. Of course lots get through. A good wall will make it far more difficult to get through. Make it a high enough wall nobody can climb over with high tech equipment everywhere. Make it so difficult it won't be worth trying. The U.S. is in a tough geographical area with hordes of economic migrants and drug mules trying to get into the U.S because their countries are so poor and corrupt in central and south America. The situation is never going to change. The wall is the only realistic solution. The U.S. cannot take care of whole world as some seem to think. Edited March 28, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Charlie said: Don't you think the technology of building walls is a few thousand years old? Walls are useful, when armies with bows and arrows would attack a city. Then someone invented large cannons and spies. Walls became obsolete. Today, we don't need walls. We need firewalls. To save us from Russian hackers who hack our elections and spread false news to influence the outcome of elections Are neighborhood fences obsolete? Same concept, isn't it? Edited March 28, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 13 hours ago, blackbird said: He is standing up for America, not giving away the country. Of course, how could he give the country away now? He's already given it to Putin. Can't give it away twice now, can he. The wall will create lots of jobs. It will suck billions of dollars out of the US economy... money that could be spent on (for example) high-tech research and development, or schools, or roads and similar infrastructure; all things which will actually benefit Americans.Or he could give everyone tax rebates, and have people spend the money that way. And then there are the other issues: - The wall will cause environmental problems, as a wall will sub-divide many animal species and possibly leading to extinction. Do you think baby Jebus likes it when animals go extinct? - In order to build his wall, Trump will likely need to expropriate (i.e. take away from people involuntarily) people's property. Do you think Baby Jebus likes it when people's stuff is taken away from them? ...and keep out lots of criminals No, it won't. As has been pointed out before... Proportionally, illegal immigrants are involved in fewer crimes (theft, murder, etc.) than natural born Americans. And even then, most illegal immigrants do not cross the US/Mexico boarder by land anyways. You know, I noticed a pattern here: I have pointed out many serious moral failings with Trump. Yet time and time again you seem to ignore those failings. just so you can go back and repeat stuff that's already been debunked. These moral failings are why many people look down with revulsion at Christians. Supposedly, Baby Jebus preached messages of tolerance, of helping your fellow man. The bible has messages about not lying. You have this large group of evangelical Christians, who claim to believe in Jebus. Yet those same people who claimed to believe in Jebus: - Voted for a man who, prior to the election exhibited some very non-Christian behavior (racism, adultery) - During the election, made statements and made promises that were very non-Christian (racist, such as bringing back "stop and frisk") and lied on a regular basis (i.e. "I will bring back manufacturing jobs"), far in excess of his political opponents - Following the election, continued to lie (e.g. Obama's wiretapping). So much for the commandment about "bearing false witness" - Has tried to enact policies that are very non-christian (such as cutting foreign aid, and trying to stop refugees. So much for helping your fellow man.) All so that he could supposedly appoint a Supreme court judge who would curtail abortion, although as I pointed out, overall Trump's policies may actually cause more abortions in the long term. I think its pretty fair to say, christian=raging hypocrite, is it not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, segnosaur said: Of course, how could he give the country away now? He's already given it to Putin. Cite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, segnosaur said: Of course, how could he give the country away now? He's already given it to Putin. Can't give it away twice now, can he. It will suck billions of dollars out of the US economy... money that could be spent on (for example) high-tech research and development, or schools, or roads and similar infrastructure; all things which will actually benefit Americans.Or he could give everyone tax rebates, and have people spend the money that way. And then there are the other issues: - The wall will cause environmental problems, as a wall will sub-divide many animal species and possibly leading to extinction. Do you think baby Jebus likes it when animals go extinct? - In order to build his wall, Trump will likely need to expropriate (i.e. take away from people involuntarily) people's property. Do you think Baby Jebus likes it when people's stuff is taken away from them? No, it won't. As has been pointed out before... Proportionally, illegal immigrants are involved in fewer crimes (theft, murder, etc.) than natural born Americans. And even then, most illegal immigrants do not cross the US/Mexico boarder by land anyways. You know, I noticed a pattern here: I have pointed out many serious moral failings with Trump. Yet time and time again you seem to ignore those failings. just so you can go back and repeat stuff that's already been debunked. These moral failings are why many people look down with revulsion at Christians. Supposedly, Baby Jebus preached messages of tolerance, of helping your fellow man. The bible has messages about not lying. You have this large group of evangelical Christians, who claim to believe in Jebus. Yet those same people who claimed to believe in Jebus: - Voted for a man who, prior to the election exhibited some very non-Christian behavior (racism, adultery) - During the election, made statements and made promises that were very non-Christian (racist, such as bringing back "stop and frisk") and lied on a regular basis (i.e. "I will bring back manufacturing jobs"), far in excess of his political opponents - Following the election, continued to lie (e.g. Obama's wiretapping). So much for the commandment about "bearing false witness" - Has tried to enact policies that are very non-christian (such as cutting foreign aid, and trying to stop refugees. So much for helping your fellow man.) All so that he could supposedly appoint a Supreme court judge who would curtail abortion, although as I pointed out, overall Trump's policies may actually cause more abortions in the long term. I think its pretty fair to say, christian=raging hypocrite, is it not? Why "baby Jebus"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, blackbird said: Why "baby Jebus"? It only serves to emphasize the ignorance.....Homer Simpson referred to the name of an ancient city.....and the new atheists unwittingly latched on to Homer's ignorance. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jebus Edited March 28, 2017 by betsy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Why "baby Jebus"? As another poster pointed out, it comes from an episode of the Simpsons. Yes, its done as a way to show condescension to those who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, yet act in a manner that is inconsistent with what was preached. Do you want Christians to be treated with more respect? Then fine... talk to the evangelicals and get them to quit being such raging hypocrites. Get them to condemn trump just as much (if not more) as they condemned Hillary during the election. Get them to actually oppose Trump's policies that are opposed to what Christians are supposed to believe in... refugee bans, foreign aid cuts, the wall, etc. As long as you have this big block of Trump-voting right-wing Evangelical christians. they will always be mocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 52 minutes ago, betsy said: It only serves to emphasize the ignorance.... You mean the ignorance of the Evangelical christian? Yeah, that was the point. Homer Simpson referred to the name of an ancient city. I think you're overthinking things a bit too much. I doubt the writers of the Simpsons bothered trying to make a reference to some ancient city in their joke. They were just trying to portray Homer's foolishness by not getting the name right. Rather ironic isn't it... Atheist use a false name "Jebus" but usually act in a manner that is consistent with what Jesus would have preached. (At least politically.) Evangelical christians use the correct name "Jesus", but screw up the message and end up supporting a racist bigot who is everything that Jesus would have condemned (had he existed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 17 hours ago, blackbird said: He is standing up for America, not giving away the country. The wall will create lots of jobs and keep out lots of criminals. China built the great wall, a good example to keep out the barbarian hordes. Trump will do the same. Sadly, a great wall can do nothing to keep out the barbarian American hordes from all the countries it has invaded, 70 plus and counting, since WWII. And who has been more barbaric than the U"we don't do body counts"S of the innocents we are saving for democracyA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, blackbird said: Why "baby Jebus"? Perfect example, blackbird of, "You know, I noticed a pattern here: I have pointed out many serious moral failings with Trump. Yet time and time again you seem to ignore those failings. just so you can go back and repeat stuff that's already been debunked." Not only do you ignore Trump's failings, you ignore the voluminous information illustrating that this whole worldwide mess is the fault of the USA. USA terrorism has been going on for centuries, and the modern version is every bit as vicious and amoral as the old stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 On 10/16/2016 at 8:21 AM, Argus said: Donald Trump is about as far from being a Christian, about as far from a man who upholds Christian values and virtues as it's possible to find in a western country. I could easily make the case that Hugh Hefner, the founder of Playboy, was a far better representative of Christian virtues, through his long years of dedicated support for the downtrodden, his campaigning for womens rights and the rights of minorities and those improperly convicted in jails. Purely on his own self-admission, and on his own re Are there two Arguses here at MLF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, segnosaur said: Atheist use a false name "Jebus" but usually act in a manner that is consistent with what Jesus would have preached. (At least politically.) Oh boy. And what did He preach politically? NONE! The only preaching that could relate with anything political would be that of following authorities - following governmental law! The only ones who show a great deal of misconception about Christianity are those who judge Christians for being human! They imagine that being a Christian means they won't be making any mistakes, or no more battling with temptation, and falling into sin. FYI, perhaps a Christian is bound to be more besieged by the devil (temptation) than a non-believer! Quote Evangelical christians use the correct name "Jesus", but screw up the message and end up supporting a racist bigot who is everything that Jesus would have condemned (had he existed). Just because you say he's a racist bigot doesn't mean he is! Reasons why Evangelicals supported Trump runs deep. It's not that shallow, Segnasaur. You say Trump is a sinner. Clinton is, too! Who isn't? What? Do you want to do a tally on their sins to see who'd sin the most between the two? You want to do a scoreboard? You saying you know everything about Trump? You know what's in his mind, and in his heart? You know his true motive? And you say "Atheist use a false name "Jebus" but usually act in a manner that is consistent with what Jesus would have preached. (At least politically.) " There's the real irony - you're being judgemental - you just gave a glaring example of it! Btw, it's not about the person. It's about the policy. The intention. Edited March 28, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, betsy said: Oh boy. And what did He preach politically? NONE! The only preaching that could relate with anything political would be that of following authorities - following governmental law! Jebus taught tolerance and acceptance (e.g. the good samaritan). Of helping your fellow man. He ran around feeding the multitudes and healing the sick. What evangelical Trump supporters are doing is running around voting for a man who, instead of tolerance, preaches racism (blacks are lazy), and intolerance (can't trust those Mexican immigrants). Instead of the message of helping your fellow man, Trump suggests "Screw those other guys. They can suffer". The bible has a section on "thou shalt not bear false witness", yet there is trump tweeting about non-existant wiretapps. The bible has a section on not stealing, but there is Trump having to shell out millions because he defrauded dozens of people through Trump University. The only ones who show a great deal of misconception about Christianity are those who judge Christians for being human! Too bad there weren't at least a few Evangelicals who actually realized that they made a mistake in voting for trump. Just because you say he's a racist bigot doesn't mean he is! You know, here's the thing... if you really don't think Trump is racist, then maybe you should take a good long look at your own beliefs; perhaps the only reason he doesn't seem racist is because you yourself are racist. Trump has: Called black people lazy, claimed someone was untrustworthy because of their heritage. His organization got in trouble twice because of racial discrimination in renting to minorities. If you don't think any of that is a sign of being racist, then perhaps there is a problem with your preception. Reasons why Evangelicals supported Trump runs deep. It's not that shallow, Segnasaur. No, actually it is that shallow. Evangelicals (trump supporters) are hypocrites. End of story. They may try to justify their hypocracy but they are still hyopcrites. You say Trump is a sinner. Clinton is, too! Who isn't? Its a question of degrees. One person who purposely defrauded dozens of people, who made racist comments and who lies more often than not is more of a sinner than someone who has lied only occasionally. Btw, it's not about the person. It's about the policy. The intention. The policy and intention of Trump is to be racist and to bring in policies which are both racist and which provide no assistance for people needing help. If you consider that to be "christian" then you are proving me to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, segnosaur said: Jebus taught tolerance and acceptance Yes? Cite the verse that speaks about that. Actually, I've encounterd several arguments that point to Jesus quotes about love, tolerance, etc., when they try to malign Christians who support Trump. Most, of not all of them cite chopped up quotes from the Bible. Update: I just created a thread specifically for this discussion. Edited March 29, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 6:40 AM, betsy said: Actually, I've encounterd several arguments that point to Jesus quotes about love, tolerance, etc., when they try to malign Christians who support Trump. Most, of not all of them cite chopped up quotes from the Bible. So, what you're saying is that Jebus didn't believe in love, tolerance, and helping your fellow man. And that Jebus would be totally fine with bigotry, fraud, lying, and being abusive to others rather than helping them. I'm an atheist, and I know bigotry, fraud, and abusing your fellow man are wrong, and that helping others is good. I guess I can assume christians believe the opposite. So, why exactly should we consider christians to be moral in any way, shape or form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 1 minute ago, segnosaur said: So, what you're saying is that Jebus didn't believe in love, tolerance, and helping your fellow man. And that Jebus would be totally fine with bigotry, fraud, lying, and being abusive to others rather than helping them. I'm an atheist, and I know bigotry, fraud, and abusing your fellow man are wrong, and that helping others is good. I guess I can assume christians believe the opposite. So, why exactly should we consider christians to be moral in any way, shape or form? Refer to the new thread on Tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 42 minutes ago, betsy said: Refer to the new thread on Tolerance. The other thread is not answering the question of why a self-styled Christian would support a public figure who lies, is a bigot, who is an adulterer and who has defrauded others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dialamah said: The other thread is not answering the question of why a self-styled Christian would support a public figure who lies, is a bigot, who is an adulterer and who has defrauded others. That's been answered already on this thread, right on this page - in response to Segnasaur. If you can't recognize the answer to that, then you're the one with a problem. Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dialamah said: The other thread is not answering the question of why a self-styled Christian would support a public figure who lies, is a bigot, who is an adulterer and who has defrauded others. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:44-45) Edited March 30, 2017 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 4 hours ago, dialamah said: The other thread is not answering the question of why a self-styled Christian would support a public figure who lies, is a bigot, who is an adulterer and who has defrauded others. Exactly. And in addition... it doesn't explain why a self-styled christian would support someone who's policies involved things that were supposedly non-christian (such as cutting foreign aid and banning refugees.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 3 hours ago, betsy said: That's been answered already on this thread, right on this page - in response to Segnasaur. No, it hasn't. It really hasn't. I pointed out specific problems with Trump, his personality, and most importantly his policies which were non-christian (at least with the way that most people think Jebus would have wanted... be kind to your fellow man, help others, don't lie, don't steal, etc.) What you did was make up some bunk about how "we're all sinners" (which is irrelevant, because I'm not claiming anyone is perfect, but knowing someone is spouting non-christian ideals and voting for him anyways is not addressed by the "we're all sinners" argument... instead, its addressed by the "evangelical christians are raging hypocrites" argument. Well, at least I used to think that, until you explained that christians don't actually believe in being kind, helping others, not lying/stealing. In which case, us non-christians can definitely classify christians as immoral. If you can't recognize the answer to that, then you're the one with a problem. Actually if you can't recognize that the question hasn't been answered, then you're the one with the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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