Whether or not there is God(s)

[blackbird]

22 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Would you say you do not know there's a God?  You still believe there is.  I believe there is not.  Let's be perfectly clear on one thing.  The state of the Universe, complex as it is, is no argument at all in favour of a designer.  None whatsoever.

If you say the state of the universe is not at all in favour of a designer, let me ask you how would you explain the incredibly amazing structure and functioning of atoms or molecules for example?  You know an atom is said to be made of protons, neutrons, and electrons which orbit it.  Where did they come from.  Such as amazing thing that unites with other atoms to form molecules.  These make up the structure of an infinite number of things.  All this is something you should consider that it could not exist without a designer who created it.  It's pure logic.  I can't see why anyone would not believe that.  There is no alternate explanation.  There is the amazing fact how different molecules react with other molecules to form chemical compounds or biological structures.  This could not have happened purely by chance.  I would implore you to at least consider how this could have happened.

Science does not even attempt to answer where the created matter came from which is the central issue.  The big bang theory falls flat for several reasons.  One is it still does not explain where atoms and molecules came from and very importantly the laws of chemistry and physics that govern how they operate.

Edited September 23, 2017 by blackbird

[Guest]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

I believe that everyone in the world who is not a millionaire should get $1 Million.  What do you think?   

Yeah, I'm on board with that one...

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I'm on board with that one...

[Guest]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

If you say the state of the universe is not at all in favour of a designer, let me ask you how would you explain the incredibly amazing structure and functioning of atoms or molecules for example?  You know an atom is said to be made of protons, neutrons, and electrons which orbit it.  Where did they come from.  Such as amazing thing that unites with other atoms to form molecules.  These make up the structure of an infinite number of things.  All this is something you should consider that it could not exist without a designer who created it.  It's pure logic.  I can't see why anyone would not believe that.  There is no alternate explanation.  There is the amazing fact how different molecules react with other molecules to form chemical compounds or biological structures.  This could not have happened purely by chance.  I would implore you to at least consider how this could have happened.

Science does not even attempt to answer where the created matter came from which is the central issue.  The big bang theory falls flat for several reasons.  One is it still does not explain where atoms and molecules came from and very importantly the laws of chemistry and physics that govern how they operate.

Science does attempt to answer all those questions.  It doesn't just make up the answers as it sees fit, in order to bring the Proles under control, which is what religions have done.  It waits until it knows what it is talking about.

I really can't see why, given the astonishing complexity you have described, that one would imagine something creating it.  That seems a lot more far fetched than it just happening by accident.

Edited September 24, 2017 by bcsapper

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Today's exchange rate...

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Today's exchange rate...

 

Enjoy your $1,000,000 loaf of bread...new millionaire!

Edited September 23, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

52 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Science does attempt to answer all those questions.  It doesn't just make up the answers as it sees fit, in order to bring the Proles under control, which is what religions have done.  It waits until it knows what it is talking about.

I really can't see why, given the astonishing complexity you have described, that one would imagine something creating it.  That seems a lot more far fetched than it just happening by accident.

 

Anthropomorphizing the Universe...it's a human thing. We seek patterns...

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Anthropomorphizing the Universe...it's a human thing. We seek patterns...

 I looked at a website that gives a purely speculative theory of how atoms came into being.  Contrary to what you said that science has the answer, it does not.  It is pure speculation.  Since it makes assumptions and builds speculation on that, it really is no answer.  Science has no real answer on how the universe came into being. 

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-first-atoms-come-from

Edited September 24, 2017 by blackbird

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 I looked at a website that gives a purely speculative theory of how atoms came into being.  Contrary to what you said that science has the answer, it does not.  It is pure speculation.  Since it makes assumptions and builds speculation on that, it really is no answer.  Science has no real answer on how the universe came into being. 

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-first-atoms-come-from

Science is a method. Not an absolute like your religious dogma.

[DogOnPorch]

Plus...we could go into the inaccuracies of Genesis re: science. 

But since you're forced to deal with absolutes...square pegs must be hammered into round holes.

 

[blackbird]

20 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Science is a method. Not an absolute like your religious dogma.

 

20 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Plus...we could go into the inaccuracies of Genesis re: science. 

But since you're forced to deal with absolutes...square pegs must be hammered into round holes.

 

Genesis is not a scientific manual.  It is an account of a supernatural event, which is the creation.  It is not in conflict with science.  People misunderstand because they try to look at it through a scientific perspective but that's not how to look at it at all.  It is a record of the miraculous or supernatural.

The way the world is now with North Korea and Iran, a nuclear holocaust could be not far distant in the future.  The Bible prophesied several thousands years ago something that sounds like it could be a nuclear holocaust.  North Korea's leader sounds like he is on a suicide mission, sort of like Waco's cult and Jonetown's suicide mission.  North Korean's leader is worshiped as a kind of god;  it is similar to a cult that is ready to sacrifice themselves for what they believe.  Iran is starting to get their backs up as well.  Their Ayatollah may also be on a mission.  All this doesn't bode well.  The cults that opted for suicide in Waco and South America involved hundreds or a thousand people in S America.  A suicide mission with nuclear weapons could involve millions of people or worse.  An atomic world war would obliterate most of the world's population. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by blackbird

[blackbird]

The U.S. is armed with nuclear submarines and aircraft loaded with nuclear bombs, plus the nuclear missiles that are land-based all ready to go.  There are thousands of nuclear bombs and missiles.   If N. Korea goes ahead with it's threat to strike the U.S. or any of it's allies with a nuclear weapon, there will be a massive retaliation, obliterating N. Korea.  The UN seems powerless and China has done very little.  It is safer to take the Bible seriously. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The UN seems powerless and China has done very little. 

So then.... God or no God ?

[blackbird]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

So then.... God or no God ?

I have already made the case a number of postings back, which you probably skipped.  I have argued the only sensible thing is to believe in God.  God is in control and you better start reading the Bible and praying for peace.  That's why it is important to believe in what the Bible says.  It is relevant for all kinds of reasons.

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I have already made the case a number of postings back, which you probably skipped. 

Well, not those posts specifically but yes.

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I have argued the only sensible thing is to believe in God.

Ok, so God's allowing all this to happen ?  God put Trump in office with the support of the evangelicals ?  What's his game plan ?

 

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God is in control and you better start reading the Bible and praying for peace.

I had better ?  Thanks for the warning but I will take my chances on Hell.

 

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That's why it is important to believe in what the Bible says.

Oh - for selfish reasons ?  Ok.  I follow an ethical path without any promise of internal reward, myself.  Hey - maybe that means I WILL get into heaven.

 

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It is relevant for all kinds of reasons.

But, ultimately, selfish ones.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

  I follow an ethical path without any promise of internal reward, myself.  Hey - maybe that means I WILL get into heaven.

Me too.  I figure if I'm decent enough, and follow the golden rule, I'll get to Heaven if there is one.

[blackbird]

33 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Me too.  I figure if I'm decent enough, and follow the golden rule, I'll get to Heaven if there is one.

I hate to burst your guys bubble but the Bible makes it clear salvation is not by works.  Read Romans ch3, 4, and 5.  Ephesians 2:8

A feature of false religion is salvation by works or a "golden rule" or "ethical path".  The Bible says our best righteousness are as filthy rags.   Maybe it's because of that "selfish" thing, that we can't seem to shake even with best intentions.

Edited September 25, 2017 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Maybe it's because of that "selfish" thing, that we can't seem to shake even with best intentions.

OK, well I am still going to try to be good.  Since I'm getting no reward and you are, I don't see how my behaviour could be seen as selfish.

[blackbird]

59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, not those posts specifically but yes.

Ok, so God's allowing all this to happen ?  God put Trump in office with the support of the evangelicals ?  What's his game plan ?

 

I had better ?  Thanks for the warning but I will take my chances on Hell.

 

Oh - for selfish reasons ?  Ok.  I follow an ethical path without any promise of internal reward, myself.  Hey - maybe that means I WILL get into heaven.

 

But, ultimately, selfish ones.

  "So God's allowing this to happen?"

Yes.  I would agree.   Yes God allowed Trump to be elected.     He permitted Hitler and Stalin.  What the reasons are I am not sure.  There are some things we don't have the answers for other than perhaps in a general sense.  If you read Genesis and the account of Adam and Eve, you will find that they rebelled against God and disobeyed him by eating the forbidden fruit.  As a result they fell from the previous state they were in.  Because they were our first parents, they were representative of the whole human race.  The Bible makes it clear all have sinned and the transgression of Adam and Eve was passed down on all of their posterity which includes us.  So the world became a fallen race and that may explain why we have all the wars, Hitlers, and Stalins.   So perhaps because of the fall of man, God allows the good and bad to become leaders.  I am not saying Trump is bad.  Maybe he is better than many others.  He says we have the N. Korea problem as it is because previous presidents like Obama neglected to deal with it.  They allowed N. Korea to proceed down the nuclear path without any opposition or very little opposition.  So what is happening in the world may be a judgment upon ourselves in a general sense, caused by our first parents rebellion against God.  They were representing the human race much like a President represents the people in his country.  If he goes to war or whatever he does, he is acting on behalf of the whole country. 

 

[blackbird]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

OK, well I am still going to try to be good.  Since I'm getting no reward and you are, I don't see how my behaviour could be seen as selfish.

I didn't say I am getting a "reward" and you are not.  I also didn't say my behavior is better;  in fact it is likely worse than yours.  The point I am trying to make is the Bible teaches contrary to most other religions, salvation is not by our works or good deeds.  Many people believe their deeds and works will get them to heaven.  This is a false hope. 

If you doubt what I'm saying, check what other religions believe on the internet.  They have all got certain things you must do.  Then check the Bible in Romans ch3, 4, and 5. and other places.   Even Rome teaches salvation by works.  At the time of the Reformation around 1540 they had the Council of Trent where they condemned the (biblical) teaching that salvation is by faith alone.  They teach right up to today that salvation is by works, and possibly by some sacraments, which is a kind of works.

Also, I would add that it is still a good thing to try to be good. I'm not questioning that.

Edited September 25, 2017 by blackbird

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I hate to burst your guys bubble but the Bible makes it clear salvation is not by works.  Read Romans ch3, 4, and 5.  Ephesians 2:8

A feature of false religion is salvation by works or a "golden rule" or "ethical path".  The Bible says our best righteousness are as filthy rags.   Maybe it's because of that "selfish" thing, that we can't seem to shake even with best intentions.

I don't believe in the Bible. So I'll be heading cloud side anyway. 

[blackbird]

Just now, bcsapper said:

I don't believe in the Bible. So I'll be heading cloud side anyway. 

Well, I am only trying to show why one should believe God exists and he revealed himself to mankind through the Bible.  It has immense importance.  We are speaking about matters of eternal importance.  You can't say I didn't try to tell you.  My conscience is clear on that.

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Well, I am only trying to show why one should believe God exists and he revealed himself to mankind through the Bible.  It has immense importance.  We are speaking about matters of eternal importance.  You can't say I didn't try to tell you.  My conscience is clear on that.

But by your own admission, you could still go to hell regardless of your acts, right?

[Guest]

Just now, blackbird said:

Well, I am only trying to show why one should believe God exists and he revealed himself to mankind through the Bible.  It has immense importance.  We are speaking about matters of eternal importance.  You can't say I didn't try to tell you.  My conscience is clear on that.

You won't be able to gloat though, if you get to Heaven and I don't, in case God sees you, and kicks you out for being mean.

[blackbird]

12 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

But by your own admission, you could still go to hell regardless of your acts, right?

No.  "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"  Titus ch3 vs 5 KJV 1611

Once a person becomes a child of God by faith in Jesus as his saviour and Lord, he will never go to hell or be lost to eternal damnation.  It is an impossibility as the Scripture teaches.     Even many churches today do not completely understand this.  But it is there in the Bible.  A christian could conceivably fall into serious sin but if he is a child of God, he is forgiven.   This happened to King David in the Old Testament.

Edited September 25, 2017 by blackbird