Progressives and Islam

[eyeball]

Which men? Those who order women what to do under the guise of protecting them from men ordering them what to do or the men ordering them what to do.

I personally believe that a woman should be allowed to wear what she wants. A burka in Paris, a bikini in Mecca, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just not dumb enough to believe that the women wearing that stuff are all doing so because they choose to.

But as I can't differentiate between those who do and those who don't but are forced to anyway, I default to the choice, or appearance thereof.

Stephen Harper for one, not to mention all the men who agreed with him. He was poised to order women what to do on the basis of defending them from other men telling them what to do. He wasn't prepared to default to choice at all. It was his way or the highway.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam plays for keeps.

There will be no choice for you regarding Islamic Law if it becomes dominant. Only a vote away in a democracy.

[eyeball]

That's one humongous IF you've postulated.

[DogOnPorch]

That's one humongous IF you've postulated.

Muslims don't vote? I think they do. Run for office, too.

Voila, the Theocracy you seek.

Islam is a religion. Not a race. Those calling themselves Muslim are part of a man-made organization with very clear religious goals as outlined in the Quran.

Edited August 25, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[cybercoma]

You're talking out of your rear end.

In practice, you would need millions of radical Islamists who would want to see those laws codified. In order to do that, they would have to elect a majority of politicians who support the idea. Those politicians would have to stay in power long enough to replace the majority of the senate with other radical Islamists. They would also have to be in power long enough to replace the majority of the Supreme Court with radical Islamists to get a SCC interpretation in their favour, which just isn't possible given the way that the Charter is written. Instead, you would need a Charter amendment which would need to be ratified by the provinces, meaning that the provincial legislative assemblies would also have to be filled with a majority of politicans who support radical Islamic Laws such that they would vote in favour of a Constitutional amendment.

By the time there were enough people in Canada who wanted that and could actually make it a reality, you and I wouldn't be talking about it. Society would be so radically Islamic that we would already be following the rules and this would just be the process of codifying it.

In other words, you're living in a fantasy world if you think that's even a remote possibility in either of our lifetimes.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam plays the long game.

Europe is feeling the pinch. We will too one day. Just not today.

[dre]

Islam plays the long game.

Europe is feeling the pinch. We will too one day. Just not today.

Need to somehow encourage them to liberalize.

[DogOnPorch]

Need to somehow encourage them to liberalize.

Are you suggesting the Quran can be end-run via liberalism? There's a verse in the Quran that warns against modifying it in any way.

This is a real problem.

[dre]

Are you suggesting the Quran can be end-run via liberalism? There's a verse in the Quran that warns against modifying it in any way.

This is a real problem.

No its not that big a problem. How literally muslims take the Koran depends on the environment they are in.

For example... In Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan nearly all Muslim's want Sharia law (91%, 95%,99%).

But in the United states that number is only 51%. In Turkey its only 12%. In Azerbaijan its only 8%.

In Canada only 15% of muslims think there should be an implementation of Sharia that forces all Muslims to comply... never mind other Canadians.

​All religions lose prevalence in advanced societies over time. And for immigrants integration increases with the second and third generations. What happens is that these muslims over time will realize... "Hey! Bacon is actually pretty fvcking tasty". Before you know it they will be drinking, jerking off to internet porn, and watching terrible reality TV shows, and cheering for the Habs or Leafs like all the other Canadians. I already know some muslims that are at this point.

If you look at polling data on muslims around the world one thing is really clear... There are bigger influences on muslim opinions that blind adherence to the Koran.

[cybercoma]

Islam plays the long game.

Europe is feeling the pinch. We will too one day. Just not today.

Europe is feeling the pinch, really? So which countries have adopted Islamic Law and forces people under threat of death to follow it? You're just throwing around hyperbole as fact.

[Argus]

Islam plays the long game.

Europe is feeling the pinch. We will too one day. Just not today.

Given their numbers are doubling every ten years we will have a higher percentage of Muslims than France in twenty years.

And they don't easily give up their views on the segregation of the sexes, either.

An Iran-born Edmonton man has been ordered to take anger management courses following a “nasty” attack on his wife’s boss stemming from a male co-worker saying hello to her in a mall.

Crown prosecutor Bethan Franklyn told court that Moradi and his wife had been at a city mall in late October 2015 when one of her co-workers came up to say hello.

Moradi asked the man how he knew his wife, then told him not to talk to her, said Franklyn.

On Nov. 6, Moradi went with his wife to the downtown office where she worked and asked to speak to human resources about the mall incident, said Franklyn.

Court heard he eventually spoke to Ross Undershute, the CEO of the health consulting organization, and stated “No men are allowed to speak to his wife and she can’t speak to any men.”

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/98you+canada+anger+management+ordered+iranian+born+attacked+wife/12147840/story.html

[Argus]

Need to somehow encourage them to liberalize.

That has been my point. Yet progressives fight tooth and nail against doing that because it implies criticizing their values - the values of brown people (eeek!), and progressives won't do it.

[cybercoma]

Maybe because that's never been how you've framed it.

[dre]

That has been my point. Yet progressives fight tooth and nail against doing that because it implies criticizing their values - the values of brown people (eeek!), and progressives won't do it.

Not progressives... liberals and libertarians.

And openly attacking their way of life hasn't worked and wont work. It does the opposite.

Edited August 25, 2016 by dre

[Argus]

Not progressives... liberals and libertarians.

And openly attacking their way of life hasn't worked and wont work. It does the opposite.

Really? When Ukrainians and Poles and Hungarians came to Canada were Canadians sensitive to their linguistic and cultural needs or did they make it clear they must learn our language and ways and embrace our culture and values? We weren't exactly caring and sensitive towards outsiders during the great waves of immigration we took in in the past, and as a result people quickly learned to adapt to our ways.

[dre]

Really? When Ukrainians and Poles and Hungarians came to Canada were Canadians sensitive to their linguistic and cultural needs or did they make it clear they must learn our language and ways and embrace our culture and values? We weren't exactly caring and sensitive towards outsiders during the great waves of immigration we took in in the past, and as a result people quickly learned to adapt to our ways.

Almost all of the immigrant groups to Canada kept to themselves for a generation before really integrating. Many of them still live in enclaves that mimic the societies they come from. "China Towns" for example. Been to Vancouver lately?

Just allowing them to live in Canada will do more than any attempt to shame them into abandoning their cultures.

[cybercoma]

Really? When Ukrainians and Poles and Hungarians came to Canada were Canadians sensitive to their linguistic and cultural needs or did they make it clear they must learn our language and ways and embrace our culture and values? We weren't exactly caring and sensitive towards outsiders during the great waves of immigration we took in in the past, and as a result people quickly learned to adapt to our ways.

"We should treat foreigners like we did at the turn of the 20th century." -Argus

Hey, maybe America should treat black people like they did then too, huh?

Edited August 25, 2016 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

"Nevermind, America. Canada had plenty of its own racists back then. One of them even went on to found the precursor to the NDP. (Link to JS Woodsworth)." -bush_cheney2004

Edited August 25, 2016 by cybercoma

[Argus]

Almost all of the immigrant groups to Canada kept to themselves for a generation before really integrating

The Chinese are the only ones that continued that. The others were Canadians by second generation. That isn't happening with Muslims. The second generation is more religious than their immigrant parents - with all the cultural values and views that suggests.

[Big Guy]

The Chinese are the only ones that continued that. The others were Canadians by second generation. That isn't happening with Muslims. The second generation is more religious than their immigrant parents - with all the cultural values and views that suggests.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Guest]

Stephen Harper for one, not to mention all the men who agreed with him. He was poised to order women what to do on the basis of defending them from other men telling them what to do. He wasn't prepared to default to choice at all. It was his way or the highway.

Yeah, he dropped the ball on that one, did our Steve. Still, it's good to live in a country where such silly ideas as deciding what people should and should not wear are given short shrift.

France surprises me.

[Peter F]

Almost all of the immigrant groups to Canada kept to themselves for a generation before really integrating. Many of them still live in enclaves that mimic the societies they come from. "China Towns" for example. Been to Vancouver lately?

Just allowing them to live in Canada will do more than any attempt to shame them into abandoning their cultures.

Yup. As I have said before immigration isn't about the immigrants its about their offspring. No matter their religion or nation of origin, merely being raised here they will be fine upstanding law -abiding, tax-paying Canadians. At the end of the day thats all that matters.

Banning religious symbols or dictating how they should dress or what to wear while swimming or deliberately inhibiting religious beliefs will only ostracize and alienate, leaving them so isolated that they will seek each other out. And folks wonder why some want to fly off and join ISIS.

Example is what counts not in-your-face-fingerwagging and elitist lectures about why the lecturer is far superior to the audience.

[Guest]

It looks like France might be coming to its senses...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burkini-ban-french-france-court-suspends-rule-law-forbidding-swimwear-worn-muslim-women-seriously-a7211396.html

Edited August 26, 2016 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

It looks like France might be coming to its senses...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burkini-ban-french-france-court-suspends-rule-law-forbidding-swimwear-worn-muslim-women-seriously-a7211396.html

Cue the right-wing calling the court progressive (with a sneer), unpatriotic, stupid, short-sighted, corrupt, kow-towing to extremists, secret Muslims, ISIS supporters, etc. Cause freedom for everyone shouldn't include the people they disapprove of!

[dre]

The others were Canadians by second generation. That isn't happening with Muslims.

Cite?