GostHacked Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 How are they ever going to learn to function in a modern society if we just keep letting them act like they're back in the middle ages? -k You don't have to look back that far, only have to look back at the last 100 years. I will use the USA as an example with how blacks were treated before they were allowed to vote. How much better have things gotten between blacks and whites? Or is this just another case of media influence to scare us?
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 You don't have to look back that far, only have to look back at the last 100 years. I will use the USA as an example with how blacks were treated before they were allowed to vote. How much better have things gotten between blacks and whites? Or is this just another case of media influence to scare us? Do you think no-one should mention it, for fear of tarring all Americans?
GostHacked Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 Are we all coming to some sort of basic agreement here? I haven't read all of the posts, but it appears that we all seem to think that the more strictly a religious person/religious people follow the word of their God, or their barbaric cultural practices, whatever they may be, the bigger the bastards they are? That's basically my position. A woman should never be prevented from wearing a burkina, or a bikini, on any beach in the world. The burkini is not much different than women's swimwear of the 1920s, 30s.
GostHacked Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 Do you think no-one should mention it, for fear of tarring all Americans? No one should be barred from making themselves look like complete idiots.
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 No one should be barred from making themselves look like complete idiots. Mentioning racial tensions in the US is idiotic? Did anyone tell CNN?
GostHacked Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 Mentioning racial tensions in the US is idiotic? Did anyone tell CNN? Idiots listen to idiots. Very simple minds play into what is put out in the news without scrutinizing it at all. Critical thinking is out the window which gives rise to this wave of idiots.
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 Idiots listen to idiots. Very simple minds play into what is put out in the news without scrutinizing it at all. Critical thinking is out the window which gives rise to this wave of idiots. Oh. those idiots.
GostHacked Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 (edited) Oh. those idiots. The way I see it, the centrists or true moderates are sitting in the middle straining their necks to follow the tennis match that goes on between the 'left' and the 'right'. The partisans that some have mentioned here (however some of them are partisans in their own way without realizing they are partisan or claiming they are not) have pushed the conversation into nothing more than a pissing match with notions like 'no, u!' Funny that I find this more online than I do in real life as I seem to run into a lot more moderates in real life than I do online. However on the topic, we don't have to look back more than 100 year to find westernized modern examples of segregation. But somehow Muslims are totally backwards for still using some segregation. And well we still have segregation in many ways still, some examples mentioned by other members in this thread. The segregation to me is less of a concern than radicalization. However through less segregation, radicalization can be nipped. It's getting to know your fellow man and stop being so afraid to talk to people. There are those on both sides that seem to need more convincing, and typically we are talking about religious leaders, and that can be said for Muslims, Christians, Jews, Catholics ect .... The simple minded end up following these idiots. So the question remains: Do we accommodate the growing number of Muslims in Canada in their religious beliefs that men/boys and women/girls should never publicly mix, or do we attempt to persuade them that this is against Canadian social mores and values? We need to be open and welcome them in and let them know that if they want to make their home here, there are somethings they will need to leave at the border. That I can agree with you on, that we have different social moral and values. They need to embrace it or not come at all. I would maybe support banning all religions in Canada. Create a nice even playing field. They seem to be the cause of a lot of social dysfunctions by telling people that they are going to hell because they are different. Most religions, until recently with much public pressure, had not accepted gays as being part of who we collectively are. There is work yet to do as there are extremists in every religion using some type of propaganda to convince you that their way is right and true. The best thing for us to do would be to laugh at all of them and go get a coffee or beer. More integration is needed. That would mean we all need to make some adjustments, because less segregation means even you and I have to give something up for the greater common good. If that is not your beef, then perhaps maybe more segregation is a good thing then. Edited August 21, 2016 by GostHacked
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Posted August 21, 2016 (edited) The way I see it, the centrists or true moderates are sitting in the middle straining their necks to follow the tennis match that goes on between the 'left' and the 'right'. The partisans that some have mentioned here (however some of them are partisans in their own way without realizing they are partisan or claiming they are not) have pushed the conversation into nothing more than a pissing match with notions like 'no, u!' Funny that I find this more online than I do in real life as I seem to run into a lot more moderates in real life than I do online. However on the topic, we don't have to look back more than 100 year to find westernized modern examples of segregation. But somehow Muslims are totally backwards for still using some segregation. And well we still have segregation in many ways still, some examples mentioned by other members in this thread. The segregation to me is less of a concern than radicalization. However through less segregation, radicalization can be nipped. It's getting to know your fellow man and stop being so afraid to talk to people. There are those on both sides that seem to need more convincing, and typically we are talking about religious leaders, and that can be said for Muslims, Christians, Jews, Catholics ect .... The simple minded end up following these idiots. They are backwards. The very defintion of backwards in this context is "Behind others in progress or development". Should it not be pointed out? Is that the problem? If one talks about race relations in the US one doesn't automatically qualify it by pointing out and comparing it to race relations in South Africa. Gender segregation based on religion is backwards. Pretty much any control of anyone based on religion is backwards. To say so doesn't automatically disqualify other examples from consideration. It doesn't mean you have to mention them to prove one isn't a partisan, either. As for radicalisation, no comparison, as you say, except for the possibility the path might start there. Edited August 21, 2016 by bcsapper
Argus Posted August 22, 2016 Report Posted August 22, 2016 Are we all coming to some sort of basic agreement here? I haven't read all of the posts, but it appears that we all seem to think that the more strictly a religious person/religious people follow the word of their God, or their barbaric cultural practices, whatever they may be, the bigger the bastards they are? Not necessarily. I don't think the Amish are all bastards, or the Mennonites, for example. And my issue here is not to condemn the Muslims who came to Canada with their backward social views, but to point out that we should be trying to convince them those views are wrong, not reinforcing their belief in the rightness of them. Instead of 'respecting' backward social views we need to express our disapproval of them or else they're not going to change them. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 And my issue here is not to condemn the Muslims who came to Canada with their backward social views, but to point out that we should be trying to convince them those views are wrong, not reinforcing their belief in the rightness of them. Instead of 'respecting' backward social views we need to express our disapproval of them or else they're not going to change them. In general I agree with your statement here. Misogyny is misogyny, homophobia is homophobia, racism is racism, violence is violence regardless of the source or worldview. However encouraging equality, for example, doesn't equate to say banning the niqab. It means we teach people they are equal and hope more women choose not to live like say Michele Bachman or choose to live without a veil or choose to be comfortable as themselves without make up or stick thin or any male driven beauty or decency standards.
Argus Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 In general I agree with your statement here. Misogyny is misogyny, homophobia is homophobia, racism is racism, violence is violence regardless of the source or worldview. However encouraging equality, for example, doesn't equate to say banning the niqab. So you're running a university swimming class for kids and some Muslim parents come to you and say they want to enroll their kids but your class is immoral and has to be separated by gender. Do you tell them they're out of luck or do you smile and say "okay"? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 More like, Muslim parents want their kids to enrol in a swimming class but are culturally and religiously uncomfortable with boys and girls swimming together so they ask the organization for segregated swim times. The organization obliges to make the children and their parents more comfortable. Those who want segregated times have it and those who were in co-ed classes still have theirs. Do you get all pissed off that the organization is accommodating people? Or do you get pissed off about Muslims and their "backwards culture soiling the fabric of Canadian society and values?" Do you then create strawmen scenarios to scare people into believing that they're taking things away from other people or changing how other people have to act or behave, when that's not even remotely the case? Do you continuously conflate economic migrants with refugees who've been forced to migrate? Do you demand that people who've witnessed the horrors of a civil war (their entire lives in chaos, their home and the homes of their friends, family, and neighbours all destroyed, loved ones dead and countless more suffering) then adapt to a new culture instantly, despite the trauma they've been through? Do you inflict further injustice by painting victims of worse tragedy than you will ever experience in your life as the tyrants who've been oppressing them in their now-destroyed homes?
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 .... It means we teach people they are equal and hope more women choose not to live like say Michele Bachman.... Michele Bachmann is a very successful women who has lived her life as she hopes and chooses....she does not live in or impact segregation policies in Canada. Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 Michele Bachmann is a very successful women who has lived her life as she hopes and chooses.... From her own mouth: In a speech at a mega-church in the Minneapolis area back in 2006, Michele Bachmann explained her decision to pursue tax law. It wasn't her choice, exactly. God had already told her to go to law school; God had also told her to marry a fellow named Marcus Bachmann. Now Marcus told her "to go and get a post-doctorate degree in tax law." This was not a particular desire of Michele's ("Tax law? I hate taxes!"), but she was certain God was speaking through her husband. "Why should I go and do something like that?" she recalled thinking. "But the Lord says, 'Be submissive wives; you are to be submissive to your husbands.' " http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/07/05/michele_bachmann_claims_to_be_submissive_to_her_husband_.html She said herself that she hasn't lived her life as she chose. That she did what her husband told her to do because God says she should be submissive to her husband. But hey. That's her choice. If she wants to be submissive to a man because she thinks that's the way to a fulfilling life, then she can fill her boots. Her husband is still a jerk for not supporting her wishes and aspirations, convincing her to get into a field she didn't want to get into.
Spiderfish Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 More like, Muslim parents want their kids to enrol in a swimming class but are culturally and religiously uncomfortable with boys and girls swimming together so they ask the organization for segregated swim times. The organization obliges to make the children and their parents more comfortable. Those who want segregated times have it and those who were in co-ed classes still have theirs. This scenario would be reasonable and acceptable, however this is not what happened here. The university said for planning purposes, separating boys and girls of all religions made most sense, once the request was made. There is no longer a co-ed swim as a result of this accommodation.
cybercoma Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 This scenario would be reasonable and acceptable, however this is not what happened here. The university said for planning purposes, separating boys and girls of all religions made most sense, once the request was made. There is no longer a co-ed swim as a result of this accommodation. There's gender segregation in all sorts of different situations. It doesn't take being Muslim to be uncomfortable with co-ed swimming. Take this comment from a parenting forum for example: Why do schools allow boys and girls to use the swimming pool at the same time? at my daughters schools from 8th -10th grade, in PE she attends the swim unit and boys and girls have it together? Why is this allowed? Wouldn't this make girls feel uncomfortable and give immature boys an opportunity to harass and humiliate girls? And cause distractions and goofing off among everyday? Not to mention young boys will be shirtless around young girls and I think that is inappropriate especially in a school setting My daughter keeps saying she does not care but she is young and may not understand how wrong this is this just seems wrong especially at school. Giving a boys a chance to leer at girls like this this class also pretty much just gives students to look at all the other students in bathing suits. What is this a party or something? How is this appropriate for school? Why is the school providing an avenue for voyeurism? can people really say honestly that young boys and girls will concentrate on swimming while they are around each other in bathing suits and not goof off? That boys (who aren't known for sensitivity) won't use this opportunity to harass or tease girls? what reason do they have to put them together? They can easily separate boys and girls buy taking the boys of another gym class and putting them with the boys in the gym class doing the swim unit and the same with girls. Cam someone please tell me the benefits and why exactly boys and girls should swim together in school? What is the reason? http://www.mothering.com/forum/39-preteens-teens/1513969-why-do-schools-allow-boys-girls-use-swimming-pool-same-time.html#post18843537 Clearly nothing in this post even remotely suggests "sin" or faith-based beliefs as anything to do with it. She's paranoid about girls being harassed by the boys. For the record, I don't think classes should be segregated in the vast majority of cases. What I do think is that we should give refugees time to adapt to a new way of life after all they have suffered through so far. If that means giving them their own swim times that are segregated or even segregating all of the groups for the time being, then fine. As long as it's a temporary solution. They need to inform the parents that they won't continue offering this indefinitely and that they're doing it as a courtesy to help them adjust to a new way of life.
Spiderfish Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 Do you then create strawmen scenarios to scare people into believing that they're taking things away from other people or changing how other people have to act or behave, when that's not even remotely the case? Do you continuously conflate economic migrants with refugees who've been forced to migrate? Do you demand that people who've witnessed the horrors of a civil war (their entire lives in chaos, their home and the homes of their friends, family, and neighbours all destroyed, loved ones dead and countless more suffering) then adapt to a new culture instantly, despite the trauma they've been through? Do you inflict further injustice by painting victims of worse tragedy than you will ever experience in your life as the tyrants who've been oppressing them in their now-destroyed homes? I have never through anything close to the traumatic experience that some of these refugees have been through so it's hard for me personally to relate to their experience. Having said that, if I went through the trauma of losing my home, family and friends, neighbors, etc. and watching it all destroyed through civil war, I think enrolling my kids in a summer camp co-ed swim in a welcoming, safe and greeting country would probably be fairly easy for me to handle. I may even be so grateful for my new fortune I would not even likely consider requesting that my new host country change certain policies to adapt to me.
Spiderfish Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) For the record, I don't think classes should be segregated in the vast majority of cases. What I do think is that we should give refugees time to adapt to a new way of life after all they have suffered through so far. If that means giving them their own swim times that are segregated or even segregating all of the groups for the time being, then fine. As long as it's a temporary solution. They need to inform the parents that they won't continue offering this indefinitely and that they're doing it as a courtesy to help them adjust to a new way of life. I partly agree. If it doesn't impact existing programs, I don't see why we can't accommodate those who wish to be segregated, as long as it doesn't impact those who don't. Edited August 23, 2016 by Spiderfish
dialamah Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 Not necessarily. I don't think the Amish are all bastards, or the Mennonites, for example. And my issue here is not to condemn the Muslims who came to Canada with their backward social views, but to point out that we should be trying to convince them those views are wrong, not reinforcing their belief in the rightness of them. Instead of 'respecting' backward social views we need to express our disapproval of them or else they're not going to change them. This expressing of disapproval doesn't actually work to change people's view, though virtually everyone is surprised when it doesn't. If it did work, you and I would have switched sides by now. What tends to work better is leading by example, showing the benefits (or at least lack of harm) and allowing the person to persuade themselves, over time. Disapproval, ridicule and scorn of someone's close held beliefs will get their backs up and close their minds. So let them come, dress however they want, engage in their personal beliefs and practices that are within our laws and let them gradually accept a more equal and free culture.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 ...But hey. That's her choice. If she wants to be submissive to a man because she thinks that's the way to a fulfilling life, then she can fill her boots. Her husband is still a jerk for not supporting her wishes and aspirations, convincing her to get into a field she didn't want to get into. That's right...her choice in the USA...and a poor example to offer up in defense of racist and sexist segregation policies in Canada. Economics trumps Virtue.
dialamah Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 I have never through anything close to the traumatic experience that some of these refugees have been through so it's hard for me personally to relate to their experience. Having said that, if I went through the trauma of losing my home, family and friends, neighbors, etc. and watching it all destroyed through civil war, I think enrolling my kids in a summer camp co-ed swim in a welcoming, safe and greeting country would probably be fairly easy for me to handle. I may even be so grateful for my new fortune I would not even likely consider requesting that my new host country change certain policies to adapt to me. Sometimes you don't react the way you think you will. I was surprised to have been extremely distressed after seeing a woman get killed in a hit-and-run. I'm not generally very squeamish but months later I still cannot contemplate jaywalking without feeling panic. People of any faith who have survived war in their country and years in a refugee camp may well believe its their faith that saved them when so many others have died. It might seem a poor thank you to their God to suddenly start ignoring what they believe are his teachings. Emotions are rarely logical, so being grateful for being safe does not mean they are going to feel safe enough to immediately transition into a completely new way of life. It will take time, and some more than others.
Bonam Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 What tends to work better is leading by example, showing the benefits (or at least lack of harm) and allowing the person to persuade themselves, over time. Disapproval, ridicule and scorn of someone's close held beliefs will get their backs up and close their minds. So let them come, dress however they want, engage in their personal beliefs and practices that are within our laws and let them gradually accept a more equal and free culture. This works as long as the majority of people around them are members of the "more equal and free culture". However, when the immigration rate is high enough and/or many of the immigrants concentrate in specific areas, then their opportunity for interacting with the "more equal and free culture" is reduced or virtually eliminated, eventually to the point that they simply perpetuate their own culture in their new location. This is why it is important to identify immigration rates that allow for assimilation to happen.
Spiderfish Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 People of any faith who have survived war in their country and years in a refugee camp may well believe its their faith that saved them when so many others have died. It might seem a poor thank you to their God to suddenly start ignoring what they believe are his teachings. Emotions are rarely logical, so being grateful for being safe does not mean they are going to feel safe enough to immediately transition into a completely new way of life. It will take time, and some more than others. Fair enough. If they're in such a fragile emotional state that they are incapable of adapting to unfamiliar surroundings, they may be doing themselves a disservice by seeking out and enrolling their kids in a program in which they know there will be co-ed swimming.
cybercoma Posted August 23, 2016 Report Posted August 23, 2016 That's right...her choice in the USA...and a poor example to offer up in defense of racist and sexist segregation policies in Canada. Your sensitivities to references to anything American is duly noted, yet again, and disregarded because nobody cares that it bothers you.
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