The costs and wastes of official bilingualism

[Machjo]

what illiterate?

The one who can't function in the working language of the office.

[Bryan]

For for example, would Canadian forces in Quebec function in French? Would French be printed on the currency? Would laws and the Constitution be in French?

Only if the Provincial govt in Quebec decided to provide those services.

Would Federal offices in central Québec need to include English?

Anything other than english would have to be provided and paid for by the Quebec govt. If the english isn't needed, and an arrangement can be made, the efforts to have english available could be greatly minimized. Even just having someone who can speak french available by phone would easily suffice. Minimal required benefit should incur minimal cost.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Bryan

[-TSS-]

Now I am in favour of extreme decentralisation with the Federal Government handling only what all of the provinces agree the Federal Government could handle better. But even then, if you de-officialize French, you'd have to include at least some easy language in the mix. For example, English and Esperanto. At least that way there's a language in the mix that any Canadian could learn quickly if he lacks the aptitude to learn a more difficult language like English.

Remind me again the countries where Esperanto is spoken.

[Peter F]

The one who can't function in the working language of the office.

But they can function and do the job just fine. Thats why they are employee's. The government has three levels of language ratings A B and C.

Certain jobs are deemed by powers that be to require certain language ratings. If the employee meets that rating then they are qualified to do the job.

That does not mean that the employee is fully conversant/fluent in that language. Thus the various ratings.

Argus' OP says its silly and wasteful for high level execs to be bilingual just because they have employees who do not speak the exec's language.

I suggest that it is a good idea that exec's be bilingual so they can communicate with their employees in the employees mother tongue because the employee is not guaranteed to know the other language all that well.

[Machjo]

But they can function and do the job just fine. Thats why they are employee's. The government has three levels of language ratings A B and C.

Certain jobs are deemed by powers that be to require certain language ratings. If the employee meets that rating then they are qualified to do the job.

That does not mean that the employee is fully conversant/fluent in that language. Thus the various ratings.

Argus' OP says its silly and wasteful for high level execs to be bilingual just because they have employees who do not speak the exec's language.

I suggest that it is a good idea that exec's be bilingual so they can communicate with their employees in the employees mother tongue because the employee is not guaranteed to know the other language all that well.

But we also expect the employee to communicate with the public. I had read a CBSA report written in broken English in Ontario accusing a foreign national of having violated IRPA based on a complete misunderstanding of an interview through an English-Chinese interpreter. Of course it went to the IRB, etc. all at taxpayer cost, only for the judge to through it all out due to the 'evidence' having been all wrong.

That's why I think it would be preferable to have Federal official unilingualism in the language of the province. That way the CBSA could hire the best qualified in the language of the province rather than a semi-literate in both official languages. Under such a policy, only the highest ranking officials dealing with Canada wide matters would need to know both languages well, especially in law and immigration enforcement or any work through interpreters.

[Machjo]

Remind me again the countries where Esperanto is spoken.

How is that relevant except to the private sector and diplomats. For the rest, the government just needs an easy to learn language.

[Bryan]

How is that relevant except to the private sector and diplomats. For the rest, the government just needs an easy to learn language.

It's a ridiculous waste of time and resources to have anyone in an official capacity learn a language that isn't actually used in any official capacity by anyone.

It's fine hobby if you want to learn it, but the cost benefit is not there for any official use.

[Argus]

If English weren't the first language of the world then French would. No doubt about it.

Therefore I'm beginning to have less sympathy for the Canadians' whinging about bilingualism as the situation opposed to us in Finland couldn't be starker; We in Finland speak a dwarf-language spoken and understood only in Finland and our bilingualism-language is Swedish which is spoken and understood outside of Sweden perhaps in Norway but not very much in Denmark.

In Canada you have the chance of learning a real useful global language.

You in Finland have a wide variety of countries close to you. We in Canada have the US, which speaks English, and that's it. Everything else is across thousands of miles of ocean except for Quebec, and there's no reason to want to go there unless it's to Montreal or Quebec city as tourists once in your life, where they accommodate English speakers fairly easily.

[-TSS-]

English is the world number one language at the moment. Latin used to be the number one language and who knows maybe Chinese replaces English as the number one language in the future.

However, at the risk of becoming boring with repeating myself I'll say this again: If English weren't the world number one language French would be.

Therefore very little sympathy for the Canadians whining about bilingualism as opposed to our biligualism in Finland where we are trapped between two dwarf-languages.

[Peter F]

But we also expect the employee to communicate with the public. I had read a CBSA report written in broken English in Ontario accusing a foreign national of having violated IRPA based on a complete misunderstanding of an interview through an English-Chinese interpreter. Of course it went to the IRB, etc. all at taxpayer cost, only for the judge to through it all out due to the 'evidence' having been all wrong.

That's why I think it would be preferable to have Federal official unilingualism in the language of the province. That way the CBSA could hire the best qualified in the language of the province rather than a semi-literate in both official languages. Under such a policy, only the highest ranking officials dealing with Canada wide matters would need to know both languages well, especially in law and immigration enforcement or any work through interpreters.

When an employee is expected to communicate with the public in both languages then the position would (one hopes) require a higher rating. I am quite sure there are some bilingual people that communicate very well in either language. That you saw a case of poor language skills that one time does not negate the program. There are procedures that catch these things - appeals and such, like the IRB in your example.

The problem with your solution is that it relegates the minority language to 2nd rate citizenship. They won't have access to services available to all the 1st rate citizens. Thats why the whole policy of bilingual federal services across the land (where numbers warrant) was instituted.

I think its a good policy - even if it does cost money and even if sometimes it looks really silly. The government willing to speak to its citizens in either English or French - no matter the province - is respectful and even helpful to its citizens. This is a good thing.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Peter F

[?Impact]

You in Finland have a wide variety of countries close to you. We in Canada have the US, which speaks English, and that's it. Everything else is across thousands of miles of ocean except for Quebec, and there's no reason to want to go there unless it's to Montreal or Quebec city as tourists once in your life, where they accommodate English speakers fairly easily.

I guess you haven`t been to the US. Spanish is spoken by 55 million people (45 million as a first language, the majority of which are natural born American citizens).

You can get by very easily in English in Montreal, but venture outside of the tourist traps in Quebec city and you will have a hard time.

Edited July 9, 2016 by ?Impact

[Peter F]

You can get by very easily in English in Montreal, but venture outside of the tourist traps in Quebec city and you will have a hard time.

Yes but Argus cannot imagine why anyone would venture because he never would so nobody else would either. It's all about him y'know.

[Argus]

Yes but Argus cannot imagine why anyone would venture because he never would so nobody else would either. It's all about him y'know.

So you're telling me someone in Vancouver should spent thirteen years learning French on the chance they'll take a tourist visit to Montreal and venture away from the tourist areas? Seriously?

[Argus]

I guess you haven`t been to the US. Spanish is spoken by 55 million people (45 million as a first language, the majority of which are natural born American citizens).

Oh well, by all means we should all learn French then.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Argus

[taxme]

A friend of mine is a manager in the public service, has been for five years now. She had to be bilingual, of course, to be a manager in Ottawa. Despite the fact she never uses it at work. She's not alone.

I remember when we hired her, and spent thousands on training to get her bilingualism up to snuff - for her to never use it. Now she's with another agency, and never uses it. Unfortunately, as happens in these situations, she's let it lapse. So now she's going to have to find time (and the government will pay for that time and her teacher) to get her rating back up to snuff. All managers in her building have to be bilingual you see, even though, well, they never use it. Her building is in Ottawa's southwest. Most Francophone public employees here live in Quebec. Those that don't, live in the east end. They don't want to work in the West, so there are few Francophone employees there. Doesn't matter, of course. And of course, none of the managers in her building have any contact with the public.

I support bilingualism, like, I think most Canadians. Unlike most of them I know what it means. It doesn't just mean that when a person calls the government, or drops into a government service centre, they can be dealt with in the language of their choice. It means that all those Francophone employees have to be able to be dealt with in the language of their choice, too, in house, by messengers, bosses, clerks, etc. Because of this, all managers and senior executives in Ottawa have to be fluently bilingual. Sixty percent of the staff in Ottawa are bilingual.

The rough cost of this has been pegged at about $1.5 billion, but I believe that underestimates things. It only counts the cost of training, or the cost when we send an executive off on full-time language courses. It doesn't count all the time those people spend on government time, studying and learning the other language. It also doesn't count the simple fact of promoting incompetents, or the barely competent, into the senior ranks of the public service. When you screen out 95% of potential candidates for language, after all, you're screening out most of the best candidates. When I worked for the government I knew many, many employees, managers and executives, both English and French, who never would have gotten hired were it not for this. And 95% of them never have any contact with the public in any form. It leaves us with a sort of ruling elite drawn from certain bilingual regions who's talents are mainly in growing up in a bilingual milieu, and not so much in administration, planning or leadership.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-of-course-justin-trudeau-wants-bilingual-judges-hes-the-product-of-bilingual-privilege

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/j-j-mccullough-bilingualism-is-the-demand-of-canadas-linguistic-aristocracy

40% of francos in Quebec want to separate from Canada, and have nothing to do with the rest of Canada. This has been the case on every referendum that they have had in quebec. They have declared themselves a unilingual french speaking province, and pretty much have tried very hard to eliminate the English language. Da Attawa Anglophone politicians have said or done nothing for the Anglophones in Quebec to protect their rights to post signs in English only, if they so choose. But don't dare deny a franco his/her rights outside of quebec. Then the crap will hit the fans.

The Anglophone politicians and the Anglophone media would cry bigotry and hatred was being shown towards francos.

When products are placed on shelves in stores french must be prominent with English turned towards the wall. This is a law in quebec.

Quebec has sucked billions of tax dollars away from the rest of Canada because of bilingualism, and the rest of English Canada says sweet nothing about it. We are not a true bilingual country, we have been forced to become a bilingual country against our will. Quebec continues to give the finger to the rest of Canada, and this needs to stop now. They should at least be told to become a bilingual province or get out. Stop playing their game.

[Smallc]

40% of francos in Quebec want to separate from Canada,

It's more like 30% now. Nobody really cares about it.

[taxme]

It's more like 30% now. Nobody really cares about it.

I am sure that if they were only 5% nobody would really care about them. But they are almost 1/3 of the population that has made Anglophones in that province second class citizen's who have no rights. Something our illustrious politicians, who always like to promote lovey-dovey stuff, have allowed to happen for decades. Some Charter of Rights where we are all suppose to be equal under the law. Except in Quebec where they are given more rights than what the rest of Canada receives.

A great book to read is called Bilingual Today, French Tomorrow" where the writer explained as to how Pet Trudeau and his cohorts in Quebec had plans to try and turn Canada into a french-speaking country. The book appears to be just about right on these days. Quebec does run and rule the rest of Canada. The book was written about forty years ago, and may be hard to obtain now. If all Anglophones had read that book Quebec would not be the bully and blackmailer that it is today, and to have been allowed to get away with treating Anglophones in that province like crap.

[Smallc]

The support for separatism is about 30%. Even most of those 30% don't really care. That's what I was saying.

[Argus]

The support for separatism is about 30%. Even most of those 30% don't really care. That's what I was saying.

The thing about separatism in Quebec is that it just takes a small thing to reignite it, and a reasonably charismatic leader, which they don't, at the moment have. Until then, well, Quebecers largely have no particular interest in Canada, but they certainly enjoy all the federal subsidies, so are willing to put up with it for now.

In a poll conducted by CROP last month, sovereignty sat at 42 per cent support.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-sovereignty-movement-has-faltered-without-jacques-parizeau/article24762791/

Edited July 11, 2016 by Argus

[Smallc]

The thing about separatism in Quebec is that it just takes a small thing to reignite it, and a reasonably charismatic leader, which they don't, at the moment have. Until then, well, Quebecers largely have no particular interest in Canada, but they certainly enjoy all the federal subsidies, so are willing to put up with it for now.

In a poll conducted by CROP last month, sovereignty sat at 42 per cent support.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-sovereignty-movement-has-faltered-without-jacques-parizeau/article24762791/

At this point in history, Quebecers don't really care either way. They don't largely acknowledge the subsidies either.

[Machjo]

When an employee is expected to communicate with the public in both languages then the position would (one hopes) require a higher rating. I am quite sure there are some bilingual people that communicate very well in either language. That you saw a case of poor language skills that one time does not negate the program. There are procedures that catch these things - appeals and such, like the IRB in your example.

The problem with your solution is that it relegates the minority language to 2nd rate citizenship. They won't have access to services available to all the 1st rate citizens. Thats why the whole policy of bilingual federal services across the land (where numbers warrant) was instituted.

I think its a good policy - even if it does cost money and even if sometimes it looks really silly. The government willing to speak to its citizens in either English or French - no matter the province - is respectful and even helpful to its citizens. This is a good thing.

Are you saying that indigenous, deaf, and other Canadians are all second-rate citizens? How many official languages do you propose to correct this great injustice?

[Peter F]

Are you saying that indigenous, deaf, and other Canadians are all second-rate citizens?

Nope. Unless no effort is made by the Federal flunkies to communicate with them . Should the Federal flunkies decide to make no efforts because, y'know, they don't have to then yes those people are 2nd rate citizens.

How many official languages do you propose to correct this great injustice?

Two; the only official languages this country has.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Peter F

[cybercoma]

Instead of starting a new thread, I'm adding this here since there was some discussion prior about recognizing sign language as official languages in Canada.

The Liberal government is considering sign language as a third official language, according to this Macleans article: http://www.macleans.ca/politics/sign-language-being-considered-as-third-official-language-documents/

If this happens, Canada will join a number of other countries that have recognized sign languages as official languages, including the European Union, New Zealand, Kenya, Mexico, Spain, and Zimbabwe.

[?Impact]

15 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

The Liberal government is considering sign language as a third official language

If it is raised to the same level, does that mean that Federal employees will need to be trilingual?

[cybercoma]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

If it is raised to the same level, does that mean that Federal employees will need to be trilingual?

Of course not. There's already a department that hires sign language interpreters. It just guarantees Deaf Canadians that right.