Transgender

Hal 9000 · May 29, 2016

I guess if people don't want to be discriminated against for being gay, they should just choose to have sex with people of a gender that they're not attracted to as well, right Tim?

I mean that's what you're arguing here, right?

When did you choose to identify as male? Because apparently you throw around "self-identified" like it's just some sort of whim.

In 5 posts and 20 minutes, you've resorted to the old standards and compared the situation to apartheid, Jews and Gays. Classic liberal argument.

Hal 9000 · May 29, 2016

It's so simple, in fact, that it has been answered numerous times and posters presented you several resources where you could find the answer. The fact is it's not an honest question, otherwise you wouldn't need me to spoon feed it to you. You would have read what posters already presented or you would have used the resources to find the answer. If you have an argument to make that hasn't already been turned into swiss cheese, then just make it.

Ok, your reluctance to answer is actually a good thing, it shows that although you don't want to outright say it, you do know this is not just a bathroom issue, but a change room/ shower issue. However, If you're so Ok with men entering the women's shower, you should stand up and take ownership of the fact.

Hal 9000 · May 29, 2016

You've yet to substantiate this BS. As far as I can tell, it's some wild rape fantasy you have that doesn't exist in reality.

It's not BS, it's the final goal - good god man, wake up!

Hal 9000 · May 29, 2016

Apartheid wasn't discrimination either, eh? They had their own separate but equal systems. Hell, Jim Crow laws weren't discriminatory either. It just codified your separate but equal mind set.

A transgender is not quite a man and not quite a woman - right? Even they don't dispute that, hence the name "Transgender". There are anywhere from 50-65 recognized genders around the world. If you consider male and female to make up 98% of those, why is it discrimination to recognize the other 2% as a gender that is neither male or female.

To give them their own space is not only not discriminatory - but should be expected. The 2% other gendered being asked to use a third facility should be no more discriminatory than asking male gender people to use the male facility.

Argus · May 29, 2016

That's not what the law says.

You lose.

What law would that be? And how do "I" lose?

jacee · May 30, 2016

What law would that be?

I assume we are discussing Bill C16:

http://www.transequalitycanada.com

Tuesday, May 17, 2016

Trans Equality Canada Applauds Legislation to Protect Trans Individuals

Ottawa, ON Today, the federal government introduced Bill C-16 in the House of Commons, which strengthens protections for the transgender community. Under Bill C-16, gender identity and expression will now be listed in hate crimes provisions of the Criminal Code and as a prohibited ground for discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act.

And how do "I" lose?

Gender identity and expression are personal choices.

What's under their clothes is nobody's business.

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Edited May 30, 2016 by jacee

jacee · May 30, 2016

Ok, your reluctance to answer is actually a good thing, it shows that although you don't want to outright say it, you do know this is not just a bathroom issue, but a change room/ shower issue. However, If you're so Ok with men entering the women's shower, you should stand up and take ownership of the fact.

I guess you missed the answer given earlier:

Generally not a huge issue. Women tend to use private shower and change cubicles when available, shower in a bathing suit, cover up with towels, etc.

There is not a lot of blatant nudity in women's change rooms.

Women may be more discrete than men.

.

Edited May 30, 2016 by jacee

BC_chick · May 30, 2016

To give them their own space is not only not discriminatory - but should be expected. The 2% other gendered being asked to use a third facility should be no more discriminatory than asking male gender people to use the male facility.

In absence of a third option, what do you think? I asked Argus this question and he didn't respond. Maybe you have an answer.

Google Buck Angel and tell me he belongs in a ladies washroom just because he has a vagina. You guys are so concerned about genitals and the effects they have on these helpless sheltered women in the bathroom - you tell me if they'll prefer to walk by Buck in a bathroom than a FTM who lives her life as a woman.

Hal 9000 · May 30, 2016

In absence of a third option, what do you think? I asked Argus this question and he didn't respond. Maybe you have an answer.

Google Buck Angel and tell me he belongs in a ladies washroom just because he has a vagina. You guys are so concerned about genitals and the effects they have on these helpless sheltered women in the bathroom - you tell me if they'll prefer to walk by Buck in a bathroom than a FTM who lives her life as a woman.

You guys still talk about bathrooms, my issues are primarily focussed on change rooms and showers.

BC_chick · May 30, 2016

You guys still talk about bathrooms, my issues are primarily focussed on change rooms and showers.

Ok, I ask you the same question, just switch bathroom with change room and shower. For fun, let's even pretend the shower area is a sea of naked women as the idea exists in your mind.

Buck Angel showering among a sea of naked cisgender women or a MTF transgender?

BC_chick · May 30, 2016

Then again, I wouldn't mind showering next to Balian Buschbaum....

Hal 9000 · May 30, 2016

Ok, I ask you the same question, just switch bathroom with change room and shower. For fun, let's even pretend the shower area is a sea of naked women as the idea exists in your mind.

Buck Angel showering among a sea of naked cisgender women or a MTF transgender?

Well, I think they should be provided their own shower. A single occupancy bathroom/change room/shower would be easy to institute at any public pool, college, school, gym or other public area.

P.S- There are radical examples of any group of people. People like Buck Angel who are male, but claim to be trans woman are far more common. Lets not pretend that all trans women are like Laverne Cox.

BC_chick · May 30, 2016

P.S- There are radical examples of any group of people. People like Buck Angel who are male, but claim to be trans woman are far more common. Lets not pretend that all trans women are like Laverne Cox.

Actually, lots pass. You just don't know it because they pass.

And no, of course not all are beautiful, but my point is that the whole idea of sticking with the anatomy of your birth goes right out the window when you think of anyone with a vagina at birth belonging with women and anyone with a penis at birth belonging with men.

That could be much more problematic than vice versa. You have to at least agree with that much.

bush_cheney2004 · May 30, 2016

Well, I think they should be provided their own shower. A single occupancy bathroom/change room/shower would be easy to institute at any public pool, college, school, gym or other public area.

Private showers and toilet stalls were provided for menstruating women/girls many years ago in schools and other facilities to accommodate those "special times". There is still a fierce menstruation battle being waged for free tampons/pads, removal of sales taxes on "feminine hygiene" products, free products for the homeless, etc. Menstruation activism is just another chapter and it includes transgender rights.

Hal 9000 · May 30, 2016

Actually, lots pass. You just don't know it because they pass.

And no, of course not all are beautiful, but my point is that the whole idea of sticking with the anatomy of your birth goes right out the window when you think of anyone with a vagina at birth belonging with women and anyone with a penis at birth belonging with men.

That could be much more problematic than vice versa. You have to at least agree with that much.

Hence the idea of a third facility.

But, this is what's problematic; we used to be able to define transsexuals and transvestites. In the effort to not discriminate, we've grouped everyone together and essentially lost all definition. We use examples of people like Buck Angel and Laverne Cox, but the more realistic thing to see is some dude who throws on a dress and wig and when he is in the shower looks like any other dude.

IMO, someone like Buck Angel has more chance of being attacked in a mens room than Laverne Cox.

BC_chick · May 30, 2016

See, you said you're not talking about bathrooms and now you're the one talking about bathrooms.

Having 3 bathrooms is not a realistic solution, most commercial buildings were constructed with two. Either they become coed or we deal with seeing the odd trans(whatever) in the bathroom here and there.

What's your preference when you think of protecting all those helpless vulnerable women? With the latter, a bathroom attacker has to get pretty creative whereas with the former, not so much.

No matter which way you slice it, allowing trans in the bathroom they choose makes more sense.

cybercoma · May 30, 2016

If a gay person insisted on having sex with unwilling people they the comparison would be appropriate. With transgender what they want is to force others to accept their delusion. This goes way beyond 'live and let live' and that is why this can't be compared to past issues

So all transgender people are rapists to you? That's about as stupid as the arguments get here.

cybercoma · May 30, 2016

In 5 posts and 20 minutes, you've resorted to the old standards and compared the situation to apartheid, Jews and Gays. Classic liberal argument.

That's because you people are making some incredibly ignorant arguments. They're literally that stupid.

cybercoma · May 30, 2016

Ok, your reluctance to answer is actually a good thing, it shows that although you don't want to outright say it, you do know this is not just a bathroom issue, but a change room/ shower issue. However, If you're so Ok with men entering the women's shower, you should stand up and take ownership of the fact.

I don't need to prove that it's not a change room and shower issue. You've failed to show in any way whatsoever that there is an issue with transgender people in showers or change rooms. There's a problems with rapists, which anyone would concede.

cybercoma · May 30, 2016

It's not BS, it's the final goal - good god man, wake up!

The secret agenda, eh? Just like gay people's secret agenda of making everyone else gay by being allowed to marry.

Edited May 30, 2016 by cybercoma

cybercoma · May 30, 2016

A transgender is not quite a man and not quite a woman - right?

Of all the ignorant things to say.

Argus · May 30, 2016

I assume we are discussing Bill C16:

http://www.transequalitycanada.com

Tuesday, May 17, 2016

Trans Equality Canada Applauds Legislation to Protect Trans Individuals

Ottawa, ON Today, the federal government introduced Bill C-16 in the House of Commons, which strengthens protections for the transgender community. Under Bill C-16, gender identity and expression will now be listed in hate crimes provisions of the Criminal Code and as a prohibited ground for discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act.

The problem with its inclusion is what kind of interpretation is placed on it by the idiots and extremists in the human rights 'industry'.

As I said, you can pass all the laws you want, but if a court orders that a boy, whether he sees himself as a girl or not, can get undressed in the same locker room as girls that will be the end of the girls' sports teams because they will simply all quit.

WestCoastRunner · May 30, 2016

The problem with its inclusion is what kind of interpretation is placed on it by the idiots and extremists in the human rights 'industry'.

.

I am assuming you are a white male living quite comfortably in Canada. It's very difficult to hear you lambast the HR organization as full of idiots and extremists. Perhaps you should research what they have done for Canadian citizens that are not white, straight men.

jacee · May 30, 2016

The problem with its inclusion is what kind of interpretation is placed on it by the idiots and extremists in the human rights 'industry'.

As I said, you can pass all the laws you want, but if a court orders that a boy, whether he sees himself as a girl or not, can get undressed in the same locker room as girls that will be the end of the girls' sports teams because they will simply all quit.

Such nonsensical catastrophizing, Argus.

"whether he sees himself as a girl or not,"

Lol

Good grief.

Leave it to those involved.

.

Edited May 31, 2016 by jacee

TimG · May 30, 2016

It's very difficult to hear you lambast the HR organization as full of idiots and extremists.

The truth hurts? The trouble with HR tribunals is one can easily come up with extreme examples of 'hate speech' (i.e. the holocaust never happened) or true examples of discrimination (i.e. we don't serve your kind here).

The problem is the HR tribunals have extended their judgement way beyond the reasonable to where people who act in good faith find themselves facing large fines because some whiners had their feeling hurt. Or attempt to outlaw speech which reflects legitimate expression of opinions (talking about the numerous issues with Islam as it is practiced today by many Muslims).

As long as these tribunals refuse to expect complainants deal with behavior that is simply rude like an adult or show any respect for the principal of free speech they deserve to be described as 'full of idiots and extremists'.

Edited May 30, 2016 by TimG