Education -What/who made you change your thinking?

[August1991]

The English-Canada progressive/Left is all about aboriginal/indigenous people nowadays. (Once upon a time, the worldwide Left cared about poor people in poor countries - instead of talking about poor people in rich countries.)

Meanwhile, the worldwide Right is supposedly concerned about crazy Islam (which even some on the Left admit is a threat).

----

Whether you're Right or Left, I reckon that we have alot of people to teach - if we want the future world to be civilized. (And given the recent history of Europe, I'm not certain knowledge of Mozart or Louis XIV matters... )

So, whether Left or Right, what/who made you "civilized", learn about civilization? A book that you read? A job you had? Was it a teacher? A parent?

When and how did you become "civilized"?

Edited April 25, 2016 by August1991

[eyeball]

So, whether Left or Right, what/who made you "civilized", learn about civilization?

Kindergarten.

[August1991]

Kindergarten.

That's a German word. Are you Prussian?

[msj]

Deleted.

Edited April 25, 2016 by msj

[eyeball]

That's a German word. Are you Prussian?

No. But seriously, kindergarten is my answer. Sure, some refinements along the lines msj outlined came later but after the foundation was laid.

[August1991]

....

6) Vonnegut for sheer joy and sarcastic wit.

....

Aside from Hemingway's simplicity, Vonnegut was honest, funny - yet dead wrong about life.

As you, msj, I agree that reading these authors helped to make me civilized - yet frankly, if I had never read them, I would still be civilised. If someone born in Aleppo in 1992 never reads Hemingway or Vonnegut, I hope that she can still be a civilised member of society.

And that's the issue in my OP.

Edited April 25, 2016 by August1991

[msj]

Yes there are many ways to civilize a human.

I have only answered in the ways that have influenced me.

That is, I answered your question for which you then bitch about my answer (I should have known not to have bothered).

Never claimed other ways are not possible for other people.

Edited April 25, 2016 by msj

[August1991]

No. But seriously, kindergarten is my answer....

Eyeball, I get your point and I agree - to a degree. The State does not make children civilized - anymore than the UN makes the world peaceful.

[August1991]

Yes there are many ways to civilize a human.

I have only answered in the ways that have influenced me.

That is, I answered your question for which you then bitch about my answer (I should have known not to have bothered).

Never claimed other ways are not possible for other people.

Fair enough.

msj, I don't know how to deal with this but in all fairness, you answered honestly with a good list.

I think you're wrong and naive, like eyeball.

[eyeball]

You figure we're uncivilized.

Shoulda seen that coming I guess.

[August1991]

You figure we're uncivilized.

Shoulda seen that coming I guess.

No, I don't figure that "you" are uncivilized.

I merely think that, like Galileo, "we" face a big problem to educate many other people - and I wonder how to do it.

Edited April 25, 2016 by August1991

[BC_chick]

I think you're wrong and naive, like eyeball.

At least they're coherent. What is your point on this thread?

[cybercoma]

At least they're coherent. What is your point on this thread?

To get people to answer, then insult them. Kind of like every other thread started by the right on this forum. Edited April 25, 2016 by cybercoma

[Big Guy]

As to "Education -What/who made you change your thinking?" - thanks for the question.

My father.

When I was in grade 11 (for the first time) in Toronto, I spent most of my school year shooting pool, playing pin ball, playing football and basketball for the school teams, playing in the senior band, playing in the school Dixieland band, participating in cadets and discovering girls. The result was that it was suggested (actually I had little choice) that I repeat grade 11. I was invited for a long talk with my father. He told me that the free room and board I was receiving at home was contingent on a successful educational career. He also suggested that since I was doing far better in cadets than in school that I might consider joining the army when i no longer had free room and board. I considered my choices, went back to grade 11 (watching all my friends go to grade 12 and unable to play for any school team until after the Christmas results - a school rule at the time) changed my study and attendance habits and managed to make the Honor Scholars list.

I was able to stay in that category until graduating from University of Toronto 7 years later with two professional degrees. I thank my dad for helping to change my way of thinking.

As to the next 50 years, I have learned to listen to what people have to say, investigate their logic and reasons for their views. Then, and only then do I "cement" into a point of view - although I have changed my mind, infrequently, but for good reasons.

I had an unhappy experience as a young man and developed a strong anti-gay, anti gay marriage and intolerant attitude. After I had written something for a public forum about why gay marriages should not be recognized, I was invited by a gay group to meet with them. I accepted the invitation. The grounds for my views were based on religion, procreation, sex and financial repercussions. I made my arguments and was politely listed to. I listened to various other arguments based on tolerance, social responsibility and equal human rights. I thought about the discussion for a few days and changed my mind based on the arguments based on equal rights. That was an epiphany and a change in thinking.

Thank you for the question.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Big Guy

[Argus]

When and how did you become "civilized"?

What is your definition of 'civilized'?

[jacee]

I think you're wrong and naive, like eyeball.

I became "civilized" when I learned not to be disrespectful of people's personal experiences.

When are you going to become "civilized"?

.

Edited April 25, 2016 by jacee

[Moonlight Graham]

What is your definition of 'civilized'?

Not Saudi Arabia?

[Moonlight Graham]

To answer the OP, I'd say foremost my parents, they taught me right from wrong since birth. I would say my upbringing in general of course, including my grandparents too, as well as the Catholic religion & schooling I was brought up in (even though I'm an atheist now, Christian morality is the centerpiece of mine and most Western moral/ethic philosophy). Again, teaching me right from wrong.

Little things in the media too that you experience as a child, like the cartoons, family sitcoms, and comic books etc, which often had moral messages in them, teaching me right from wrong.

[Guest]

I think empathy is a major source of civility. It helps to eradicate selfishness and leads one to strive for the greater good. Early on my parents, primarily my mother, taught me to consider the position and plight of others and to ask myself 'what if everyone did that?' before taking an action. Some people will always put selfish wants first, but what if everyone did? What kind of culture would that lead to? IMO, empathy leads to civility, tolerance, equity and progressive humanist ethics.

[Argus]

Not Saudi Arabia?

No, nor China, nor Pakistan, nor Russia, nor Africa - any part of it

[Argus]

IMO, empathy leads to civility, tolerance, equity and progressive humanist ethics.

But if not tempered by judgement and intelligence inevitably leads to a bad end.

[Argus]

To answer the OP, I'd say foremost my parents, they taught me right from wrong since birth.

Technically, what they taught you was what THEY believed was right and wrong. Civilization has two aspects, I think. The first is the ability for individuals to exist and successfully navigate the written and unwritten cultural requirements of a complex civilization. In keeping with that if you believed in the sun god and cutting out people's hearts to sacrifice to Him you were civilized in Mayan times.

Of course, by our standards the Mayans weren't civilized in the second sense. I mean, clearly they were a civilization, but failed to demonstrate the sense of humane, ethical and moral behaviour we associate today with 'civilized'. Of course, that second part changes over the years. You were light years more civilized than the Mayans if you were a nineteenth century Englishman, but we'd regard the latter as uncivilized too, by our current standards.

Respect, until its shown to be undeserved, and restraint in how we deal with others is, I think, the heart of being civilized.

[Guest]

But if not tempered by judgement and intelligence inevitably leads to a bad end.

Intelligence and judgement are important when making decisions based in any ethical or ideological worldview. Even with intelligence the bad end you speak of is unavoidable without empathy.

[Guest]

When I was a little tyke in Catholic school they had a book with a picture of Adam and Eve petting Lions and Tigers and such, so I asked the teacher a question:

If Adam and Eve were the first things created by God, and they had Lions and Tigers around, what happened to the Dinosaurs? Because Dinosaurs came before Lions and Tigers, right?

My teacher told me that there were no such things as Dinosaurs.

Hellooo, Atheist. It took a few more years, and a few vicious Nuns, to fully convert me, but that moment, still remembered like it was yesterday though it was more than 50 years ago, is one point in my life that fully meets the requirements of the OP.

[Big Guy]

...

My teacher told me that there were no such things as Dinosaurs.

...

Of course there were no such things as Dinosaurs. Have you ever seen a live one?