Liberals party defence review

[Army Guy]

This isn't a referendum, its a stakeholder consultation. If you don't know the difference then some basic management training might be in order.

Unless you understand these concepts I guarantee you will fail in any kind of management role you ever find yourself in.

Poor choices of wording, on my part, sorry.... Stake holders consultation, of course in the real sense of those words one would expect to have some basic knowledge of the company, what it does, what it produces, what is the bottom dollar, current fiscal state of the company, the future aspects of the company....those sort of things, I mean after all they are invested right.... And yet these facts are missing....what your asking Canadian stake holders to comment on, they are missing most of the facts.....you know to make an informed opinion.....right now we are asking them to guess...

No stakeholders don't micromanage projects. I WOULD however ask my wife which projects around our property are the most important to her. Maybe she thinks fixing the driveway is more important than remodeling the bathroom. Or maybe she wants to fix the driveway but doesnt want to spend the money on a concrete driveway so we should look at installing asphalt instead or blue-chip.

Unless you understand these concepts I guarantee you will fail in any kind of management role you ever find yourself in.

Your confusing the issue with a gross misunderstanding, tax payers are not shareholders, while some of their opinions might sway our political masters we have very little say on the day to day running of this nation or major decisions made in this country. We have an understanding that we vote our leaders into power, hoping they will make the right decisions , by right I mean what is in the best interest for the nation as a whole, some of those decisions may not be liked by all it's citizens....By using all the resources available to them, and not to all citizens....

Have you read the survey, because that is exactly the choices that are being asked, questions on budget, resources, including equipment security, roles of the forces, it covers every aspect of the forces....we are asking your wife to comment on the tools you need, what tools you can have, where the tools should be made etc etc that is pretty much in the weeds if you ask me...

During my career as a military member I was often placed in the management role, and what I learned from that was to surround myself with experts in their field, trust their abilities, and support them with everything they needed to accomplish the task at hand...when dealing with explosives I would infer to my explosive expert, not a clerk for HQ's.

If this was just a survey on our nations military to find out what our nations citizens thought about the highlights then it should have been written to that level of expertise...Even with 34 years of experience I could not comment on some of the questions asked, because I had no back ground experience or knowledge on those topics.

Which leads me to this question WHY would we need to have a survey of this level, The current government by now has been fully briefed on ALL military matters, it's strengths , and weaknesses , and all possible solutions to fix them or improve upon them all carefully thought out, costed, and prioritized by experts....I get the impression that these solutions were not within the Governments mandate, or fiscal budget and now they are looking at other options, turning to the public to test just how much water DND holds with the people, and if a favorable solution can be found and supported by the public it could use that as justification THIS is what you wanted.....which is not leadership nor management qualities . We did not elect them to be popular....but do what is right for the nation.

[Derek 2.0]

say what? Isn't there a Common Committee charged with leading public consultation on electoral reform?

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Is it weighted to the same degree as the defense review? Wouldn't the ultimate feedback tool be a referendum on the proposed final options for both or any Government policies changes?

[dre]

You know this how?

Because anarchist and minarchist movements are almost non existent here.

I would assume if asked most Canadians would favor paying less money for the same or more levels of Government services......

Only to the degree that they would favor having a unicorn tied up in their backyard that shat gold bullion. They understand that's not realistic though and that goods and services always cost money.

Most Canadians are willing to pay higher taxes in order protect public services and reduce income inequality.

We aren't a minarchist society. In general we want a high level of services and dont mind paying for them.

[Big Guy]

Your remark about Hillier is wrong.....Hillier told the government that DND could not handle the mission and was not ready for Afghanistan.....

We've discussed this already.....and your quote has been debunked......

The Harper government did not pour all kinds of money into the military....he poured enough for the Afghan mission, but that hardly counts for all kinds.....

My remark is correct and documented. We have discussed it and I do not recall that it was "debunked". As to Afghanistan, $billions may not be "all kinds" to you but it is to me. And as to my point, if he did not do so then we would not have gotten involved in that fiasco.

[Wilber]

99.9% or there abouts. Only a few quacks believe in a society without taxation, and with zero services. Hard-core anarchists... minarchist libertarians... folks like that.

But that isn't what this is about. Increases in taxes or cut's in services affect them directly, the state of the military does not. The state of the military affects the country as a whole, not individuals and that is why the government we elected is responsible for its direction and condition. Our government decides when and where our military will be used, not Joe Public. If I want to know about something, I ask someone who is qualified to tell me. You can't believe everything someone tells you on the internet.

[Army Guy]

So is mine, by several sources, Mr Hillier, several of his key staff members, and several media reporters who ran those stories.....what did you have again, oh yes 2 writers, who wrote a book, one who happened to be a member in the liberal party, who was covering for his boss....

Show me bils....spent on the military....or did you mean Bils pumped into the mission in Afghanistan...which was not the militaries mission but rather our nations mission.....

[Big Guy]

Sure, but if the majority of middle class taxpayers favored a 25% reduction in their taxes, the government should listen?

Sure, if the population accepts what services will be lost. If I was told that the result was that the military budget was cut by 90% and exactly which other services would be cut then I would agree.

The government does not make or spend money. It reallocates funds from one segment to another to satisfy what it feels are out needs.

[Big Guy]

The military is a servant of the government and works for and is payed by the people. It does what it is told to do, goes where it is told to go and shoot at who it is told to shoot. That is why we elect different people to periodically to represent us and make decisions based on what is best for the populace.

That is why the military is run by people who have spent all their lives in the military and see the world through that prism.

There are a few places in the world where the military thinks it knows better than the civilian government and take control "for the people".

Canada is not one of those places.

[Derek 2.0]

Sure, if the population accepts what services will be lost.

But that is the point, the Government isn't clearly conveying what "services" would be lost, what it costs to keep said services, the implications of not having said services and why we need said services........as such, an uninformed public is asked to offer their uninformed opinions to square a circle that they don't understand.

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As noted, if this survey/public input carries little weight in the process then it is simply fluff and a waste of both money and time........if it does carry weight, then it is a failure of leadership and crass political pandering.

[Derek 2.0]

The military is a servant of the government and works for and is payed by the people. It does what it is told to do, goes where it is told to go and shoot at who it is told to shoot. That is why we elect different people to periodically to represent us and make decisions based on what is best for the populace.

That is why the military is run by people who have spent all their lives in the military and see the world through that prism.

There are a few places in the world where the military thinks it knows better than the civilian government and take control "for the people".

Canada is not one of those places.

Replace military with healthcare or public works etc..........Would most Canadians be equipped to offer informed opinions on how best to contend with public health or the distribution of drinking water or electricity?

[waldo]

As noted, if this survey/public input carries little weight in the process then it is simply fluff and a waste of both money and time........if it does carry weight, then it is a failure of leadership and crass political pandering.

can you provide your own determined weighting range and benchmarks... not the Government's - yours... the ones you declare as "fluff and failure"? What D2.0 weight is fluff... what D2.0 weight is failure?

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[Derek 2.0]

can you provide your own determined weighting range and benchmarks... not the Government's - yours... the ones you declare as "fluff and failure"? What D2.0 weight is fluff... what D2.0 weight is failure?

.

Benchmarks for what? This Government's survey?

[Wilber]

The military is a servant of the government and works for and is payed by the people. It does what it is told to do, goes where it is told to go and shoot at who it is told to shoot. That is why we elect different people to periodically to represent us and make decisions based on what is best for the populace.

That is why the military is run by people who have spent all their lives in the military and see the world through that prism.

There are a few places in the world where the military thinks it knows better than the civilian government and take control "for the people".

Canada is not one of those places.

When I hire a professional (and that's what our military is) to do a job, I don't tell him how the job is done or what tools he needs. That's his expertise. I can accept or reject the advice and accept the consequences of doing so. When it comes to the military, that's the governments responsibility but the real consequences never stick to the politicians, the military personnel suffer the real consequences.

[overthere]

say what? Isn't there a Common Committee charged with leading public consultation on electoral reform?

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No. Not yet.

'

And 'electoral reform' is a whole nother sack of worms for the Liberals. Trudeau wants it bad, real bad and so does the entire LPC, Luckily they have a majority, so hammering it through is just a matter for the communications staff. Their mission, and they have accepted it wholeheartedly, is to get 'er done with ranked ballots ASAP and without a referendum. They'll spend as little time as possible pretending to consult with folks who have little input like the provinces and First Nations. They'll spend even less talking about it with anybody in the Commons, nothing to gain there for them. The Libs will talk to the people every day through the CBC- of course. That part has already begun, with Andy Coyne and others somehow dismissing the status quo system out of hand- without much explanation why.

The defence file is one that Trudaeu needs to go away until next term at least. He has no money, and by pretending to study it hard he can pretend he has met another campaign promise, at least for a little while.

[Big Guy]

When I hire a professional (and that's what our military is) to do a job, I don't tell him how the job is done or what tools he needs. That's his expertise. I can accept or reject the advice and accept the consequences of doing so. When it comes to the military, that's the governments responsibility but the real consequences never stick to the politicians, the military personnel suffer the real consequences.

"When it comes to the military, that's the governments responsibility but the real consequences never stick to the politicians, the military personnel suffer the real consequences." I fully agree. That has always been the nature of a military in a democracy.

Using your analogy, I price out the job and what I can afford before starting the job. I can and do confer with my professional as to how much he is going to need to complete the job. If he is honest with me he tells me and if it is more than I want to spend then I review the whole project.

We never should have got involved in Afghanistan or this current civil war in the Middle East.

As to consequences of a mistake - I disagree. The military may get the blame but the Canadian people suffer the consequences.

[Army Guy]

The military is a servant of the government and works for and is payed by the people. It does what it is told to do, goes where it is told to go and shoot at who it is told to shoot. That is why we elect different people to periodically to represent us and make decisions based on what is best for the populace.

That is why the military is run by people who have spent all their lives in the military and see the world through that prism.

There are a few places in the world where the military thinks it knows better than the civilian government and take control "for the people".

Canada is not one of those places.

I sense so much hostility towards the military, Well at least you have a few things right in your comments , The military is a servant of the Government, but it does not work for the people nor is it paid by the people... It is a political tool used by our government where and when it chooses, against enemies foreign and domestic... Not saying this would ever happen in Canada , but on rare occasions such as the FLQ crisses....it has....DND is owned and operated by our government , it is paid through taxes it collects and redistributes as it see fit....Just so we are clear,

As for our military acting outside the Civilian Chain of command , it has on one occasion the Cuban missile crises, where Canadian Naval commanders were told to stand down on the blockade, and refused that direct order from the PM... When it comes to military matters in this nation your not going to convince me a school teacher knows what is best for the nation defense.....

[Big Guy]

I sense so much hostility towards the military, Well at least you have a few things right in your comments , The military is a servant of the Government, but it does not work for the people nor is it paid by the people... It is a political tool used by our government where and when it chooses, against enemies foreign and domestic... Not saying this would ever happen in Canada , but on rare occasions such as the FLQ crisses....it has....DND is owned and operated by our government , it is paid through taxes it collects and redistributes as it see fit....Just so we are clear,

As for our military acting outside the Civilian Chain of command , it has on one occasion the Cuban missile crises, where Canadian Naval commanders were told to stand down on the blockade, and refused that direct order from the PM... When it comes to military matters in this nation your not going to convince me a school teacher knows what is best for the nation defense.....

I apologize if you sense hostility. I had been turned off by having to deal with Hillier - who I (and others) considered to be a swaggering, rum guzzling, cigar smoking egotist painfully trying to emulate General Patton.

I do have many reservations about how military leadership perceives itself and its role. The DND may be owned and operated by our government but our government is owned and operated by the will of the people. If the military is not paid by the people then where does it get its money. I submit that it is Canadian taxpayers money that allows the military to exist unless of course our military has discovered another source of income. And as far as I am concerned you work for who pays you. It is the people of Canada who pay the military.

The Canadian school teacher, the factory worker, the garbage collector and the multi-billionaire elect people who promise to take Canada into the direction that we want as to foreign policy and national defense. Your not going to convince me that somebody in the military, whose job depends on continuing financial support and whose view of the world is through a military prism, knows what is best for national defense. He may know what is best for the military but not necessarily what is best for the nation.

The people who we elect and the liaison to the military (Minister of Defense) make those decisions on behalf of the Canadian people. I have no problems with members of the military as being one of the many organizations that out government approaches for advice on foreign policy.

[Derek 2.0]

The people who we elect and the liaison to the military (Minister of Defense) make those decisions on behalf of the Canadian people. I have no problems with members of the military as being one of the many organizations that out government approaches for advice on foreign policy.

I agree, and such notions can be applied to any level of government and their "various service providers", from the military, the Provincial healthcare providers, down to the local city water works and garbage collection.

The question is when should elected leadership defer to the populace's uninformed opinions to govern, and how much weight said opinions should be given over experts in a given field.

[Wilber]

"When it comes to the military, that's the governments responsibility but the real consequences never stick to the politicians, the military personnel suffer the real consequences." I fully agree. That has always been the nature of a military in a democracy.

Using your analogy, I price out the job and what I can afford before starting the job. I can and do confer with my professional as to how much he is going to need to complete the job. If he is honest with me he tells me and if it is more than I want to spend then I review the whole project.

We never should have got involved in Afghanistan or this current civil war in the Middle East.

As to consequences of a mistake - I disagree. The military may get the blame but the Canadian people suffer the consequences.

You get another professional to review the project, you don't get your electrician to review your taxes. Some things are not optional. If you want a military that can function, you have to give it the tools to do the job.

The Canadian people don't suffer the real consequences, unless it is the relatives and friends of dead and crippled members of the forces. They might take a bit of a hit in the wallet but the military pays in life and limb. This country has never gone into a war prepared, the closest it ever came was Korea and only because it came so close behind WW2. In WW1 it was things like the Canadian made Ross rifle which was great on a range but jammed as soon as it got a bit of dirt in it. Our guys were throwing them away as fast as they could and picking up Lee Enfields left by other dead and wounded British and Empire personnel, until our defense department came to its senses and eventually re-equipped them with what they should have had in the first place. When both WW1 and WW2 began, Canada didn't really have much in the way of military capability at all and early in those wars a lot of Canadians died unnecessarily because of it. In Afghanistan it was things like the iltis and lack of helicopters that resulted in a lot of unnecessary casualties from IED's.

[Army Guy]

Come on big guy, your not sorry we've been doing this dance far to long, your intentions and attitude towards the military are recorded here in ML history for all to read and enjoy.

As for Mr Hillier , that's your opinion and your entitled to it, as am I.. well me and thousand of military personal that served under him. For me he was a breath of fresh air, he could talk to a private and scholar in the same conversation and not make either feel superior or inadequate , he had charisma that was shared by many famous generals past and present. He was not interested in politics, instead he was interested in soldiering for this great nation. He always put his soldiers interest first and foremost, and was not above telling our political masters what was needed , when it was needed and how it was needed. He was what ever CDS should be, the Nations top soldier. the toughest bastard on the block if needed...He was one of the few CDS that stood up for every soldier first and foremost. He spoke his mind , even at the peril of his image he was after all a soldier , not some mud slinging politician...who are solely looking for a scape goat such as your 2 authors have tried.....As you keep reminding the readers it is the PM decision that DND follows, which also makes it the PM's responsibility for those decisions. They can't be passed on to subordinates..... He owns them...

Not sure what your perception includes, so I won't comment on it. As for the government being owned be the will of the people, that's is funny....the people lost their will for operations in Afghanistan 2 years into the conflict, and yet 8 years later we were still in combat operations, and the number of Canadian soldiers that had died had reached 158.....even then we would spend the next 2 years in a training capacity, try doing that in a combat environment.....Where was the will of the people then.....I guess the will was not that strong.....or was not heard....or the government was not listening.....

Here is another little tidbit, Every Canadian including our nations soldier pays taxes by law.....those dollars you pay into our government coffers in taxes no longer belong to you. just like the bils in other taxes collected various other tax policies, from companies, foreign investments, the list goes on and on....according to your logic they get a say in how they are spent.....NO.....why not .....does a Canadian business owner who pays personal income tax and business taxes not get 2 votes......no.....

Your voice is heard when you've gathered enough voices to make a difference.....until then you can think DND works for you because you help pay the bills.....just like any other company you pay bills to try dictating policy to the power company or your phone provider......but when events like OKA , FLQ crises happen and the government says you've been bad.....DND is going to kick your Canadian tax paying ass....Oh DND will listen to you screaming I pay your wage, I pay for your existence.....all day just like in OKA, but when the green light is given from Our government to take you down a couple of things are going to happen, your arrest, or force will be applied until you compile...Does that sound like an employer / employee relationship...

I am not arguing that elected officials can do as they please once in office, they can reduce the military to 3 newfies in a row boat if they feel the need, but it is them that will shoulder the responsibilities for such an act.... It won't be all the voters that supported that decision... history will record the elected government....And when it comes to the defense of the nation the experts in those many dept's are just that the experts period.....now if you think by spending an entire life studying for this one job gives you tunnel vision then again that's opinion not fact based. And that a school teacher such as yourself is more qualified because your elected your wrong again.....you don't get some magic pill once your elected to make you the all in one , nobody is better than me guy......Hence why the government is full of experts that advise him on all matters....

[Big Guy]

Thank you for another candid opinion. I appreciate it more now that I have a better idea of your position. You describe the person who was in charge of our forces as "He was what ever CDS should be, the Nations top soldier. the toughest bastard on the block if needed.".

That is the first place where we differ. I would prefer someone who made quality decisions based on logic, experience and the common good. The toughest bastard on the block should be in a boxing ring and not be in a commanding position. I have been a macho jock but I have never depended on the military for my living so I may have a different view of the world.

You have very interesting views based on the way you made your living. I have views based on the way I made my living. I was in front of a classroom about 45 years ago for a few years - so you are somewhat correct.

I walked into my career with my eyes wide open knowing exactly what I was getting into and what was expected of me. I assume you walked into your career with your eyes wide open knowing exactly what I was getting into and what was expected of you. I, on the other hand, do not expect people to feel sorry for me or for what I have accomplished.

As much as I have enjoyed this dance, it is getting late and it appears that it is the same tune being repeated again and again. Perhaps it is time to move on.

In summary, the legacy of Hillier will be written objectively through history no matter his attempt to establish it early through his biased autobiography. One of my favorite people of all time is General Colin Luther Powell and Hillier was certainly no Powell. Afghanistan was a major mistake. The monies poured into the military for Afghanistan, Libya and the civil war in the Middle East is a waste of money. The military will never have "enough" funding to satisfy what it believe its role to be.

Thank you for the last dance.

See you at the next dance.

[bush_cheney2004]

....In summary, the legacy of Hillier will be written objectively through history no matter his attempt to establish it early through his biased autobiography. One of my favorite people of all time is General Colin Luther Powell and Hillier was certainly no Powell. Afghanistan was a major mistake....

Worshiping foreign leaders will get you this....Sec'y Colin Powell quote on Afghanistan from Nov 2001:

...Under President Bush's leadership, we have responded to this outrage against civilisation. We have quickly assembled a remarkable coalition of countries. Almost every country in the world except for one or two are part of this coalition. And that coalition came together and launched a full-scale campaign against al-Qaida, the terrorist conspiracy that attacked us, and its ring leader, Osama bin Laden.

To get to terrorists, we had to go after the Taliban regime in Afghanistan that was protecting them. We warned them. We warned the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden or we would make them pay. They refused, and we have now made them pay. We have driven them from power, and I know that all of you are as proud as I am of the brave men and women of our armed forces and our intelligence services who made that success possible. Those kids are just great, and we all need to be proud of them.

...Compare the Taliban's depredations with the response of the international community to the plight of the Afghan people.

...We are not stopping there. We are working with the international community and the Afghan people to help them rebuild their country. Tomorrow, back in Washington, I will kick off the first international Afghan reconstruction meeting to achieve this purpose.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/20/afghanistan.israel

Edited April 8, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Thank you for another candid opinion. I appreciate it more now that I have a better idea of your position. You describe the person who was in charge of our forces as "He was what ever CDS should be, the Nations top soldier. the toughest bastard on the block if needed.".

That is the first place where we differ. I would prefer someone who made quality decisions based on logic, experience and the common good. The toughest bastard on the block should be in a boxing ring and not be in a commanding position. I have been a macho jock but I have never depended on the military for my living so I may have a different view of the world.

You have very interesting views based on the way you made your living. I have views based on the way I made my living. I was in front of a classroom about 45 years ago for a few years - so you are somewhat correct.

I walked into my career with my eyes wide open knowing exactly what I was getting into and what was expected of me. I assume you walked into your career with your eyes wide open knowing exactly what I was getting into and what was expected of you. I, on the other hand, do not expect people to feel sorry for me or for what I have accomplished.

As much as I have enjoyed this dance, it is getting late and it appears that it is the same tune being repeated again and again. Perhaps it is time to move on.

In summary, the legacy of Hillier will be written objectively through history no matter his attempt to establish it early through his biased autobiography. One of my favorite people of all time is General Colin Luther Powell and Hillier was certainly no Powell. Afghanistan was a major mistake. The monies poured into the military for Afghanistan, Libya and the civil war in the Middle East is a waste of money. The military will never have "enough" funding to satisfy what it believe its role to be.

Thank you for the last dance.

See you at the next dance.

This just shows your lack of understanding of what the military's function is regarding foreign policy. The military is for when the diplomats have failed and you are left with who is the toughest bastard on the block. You want people who others are willing to follow and put their trust in, not politicians.

That is why we call them leaders.

George MacDonald Fraser, author of the Flashman novels served as an infantry private in the 14th Army in Burma during WW2, the so called forgotten army which was commanded by a man called William Slim, who some regard as the best general of WW2.

He said.about Slim.

But the biggest boost to morale was the burly man who came to talk to the assembled battalion … it was unforgettable. Slim was like that: the only man I've ever seen who had a force that came out of him...^[63] British soldiers don't love their commanders much less worship them; Fourteenth Army trusted Slim and thought of him as one of themselves, and perhaps his real secret was that the feeling was mutual.^[64]

What exactly did you put at risk during your 45 years in the classroom?

[dre]

your intentions and attitude towards the military are recorded here in ML history for all to read and enjoy.

His attitude towards the military is less hostile than the attitudes here towards the people that PAY for the entire show (you know... the "wave of ignorance") LOL.

People are literally up in arms over the government simply asking for Canadians opinion.

And who DOES get to have an opinion? Oh yeah! The EXPERTS!

The EXPERTS in the government and military that thought up and executed OPERATION: ABJECT FAILURE. The EXPERTS that spent twice as long fighting the Taliban as it took to win world war 2, and still lost.

Or the EXPERTS that told Americans the Invasion of Iraq would take "a few months" and cost "a few million dollars". Or the EXPERTS that have been dumb enough to get Canada dragged into that same war 14 years later.

Or the EXPERTS that spent 5 Trillion dollars on a "war on terror" that has resulted in record levels of terrorism.

[Derek 2.0]

The EXPERTS in the government and military that thought up and executed OPERATION: ABJECT FAILURE. The EXPERTS that spent twice as long fighting the Taliban as it took to win world war 2, and still lost.

Or the EXPERTS that told Americans the Invasion of Iraq would take "a few months" and cost "a few million dollars". Or the EXPERTS that have been dumb enough to get Canada dragged into that same war 14 years later.

Or the EXPERTS that spent 5 Trillion dollars on a "war on terror" that has resulted in record levels of terrorism.

You're wrong, the "experts" never offered said advice or opinion........in each one of your examples, politics superseded the "experts" advice, politics aimed at the uninformed public that you feel should have further input.