Want to live in nice resort? Just murder someone

[Argus]

So you want a return to clan justice?

I would not be fit to make a judgement there because I would probably want to maim the perp myself.

If someone did something outrageously violent to me or mine and wasn't properly punished by the government, well, they'd get punished one way or another.

[?Impact]

... There are several prisons in the us that create positive cash flow back to the tax payers. By making prisoners grow their own food, produce products that are sold, such as Cor Can here in Canada...these type of solutions are lowering costs paid out by tax payers....

...

You must be talking about Angola, the Louisiana State Penitentiary. It was converted from a southern plantation into a prison, where modern day black men labor in the sun while guards patrol from horseback just like 150 years ago. I guess you didn't know that the warden, Burl Cain, was forced to step down as his shady business dealing are being investigated. Yes, he was able to force prisoners to work because the alternative was beatings and extended stints in solitary confinement. Not the model we should be looking for, unless of course you are a corrupt prison warden wanting to line your pocketbook.

[Army Guy]

So your saying the concept is wrong, while I did not know the warden was lining his pockets, but the fact remains the program in which he was following has some merit in regards to lowering costs....you don't just throw out the bady with the bath water because some one took advantage of the situation...

There are other Penitentiaries here in Canada that produce products such as Corcan, not sure if the sales of said products are going back into the prisons but they are being used some where...Corcan is office furniture used within the federal government.

[Argus]

So your saying the concept is wrong, while I did not know the warden was lining his pockets, but the fact remains the program in which he was following has some merit in regards to lowering costs....you don't just throw out the bady with the bath water because some one took advantage of the situation...

There are other Penitentiaries here in Canada that produce products such as Corcan, not sure if the sales of said products are going back into the prisons but they are being used some where...Corcan is office furniture used within the federal government.

It makes no sense to just warehouse people, but progressives are horrified at the thought of actually making people work - at all. "Hard labour" is a punishment the US and UK routinely mete out. In Canada we prefer our criminals sit around and watch TV.

[jacee]

We are not talking about an accident here, we are talking about someone making a choice and talking your childs life...for their own pleasure or gain...And the pain is not the same....

And while it does not matter what punishment is handed out it will never stop the pain or bring them back...nut knowing that this person is locked up and will not be able to inflict this pain on another family is some what comforting .....

He is locked up.

They think if he was treated worse it would make them feel better.

I doubt it.

.

[jacee]

If someone did something outrageously violent to me or mine and wasn't properly punished by the government, well, they'd get punished one way or another.

And you'd go to jail.

How would that help?

.

[jacee]

Yes it does cost a lot of money, but what is included in that total, and what measures have we taken to really look at each line item on that list, to access whether or not it is truly needed, or is still working and producing good results....Perhaps what is needed is an inquiry a fact finding inquiry to spell it all out for us....

There has been other studies and other strategies done to give us other options, to lowering these costs. There are several prisons in the us that create positive cash flow back to the tax payers. By making prisoners grow their own food, produce products that are sold, such as Cor Can here in Canada...these type of solutions are lowering costs paid out by tax payers....

For-profit prisons:

we-must-end-for-profit-prisons

Not sure it's an answer. Doesn't seem to be working well.

I think Canadians are getting tired of our high tax bills and are willing to try anything to lower them including reducing times served to lower burden on jail crowding and reduce over costs of housing criminals....we balk at harpers plans to build more jails to get tougher sentencing.....we shout at the top of our lungs .....it does not work.....and yet the inter net is full of Canadian examples of our justice system becoming a joke....

The most recent example is the release of an elderly women call the black widow....who received 6 years for murdering her first husband convicted of manslaugter...She drugged her husband then ran him over twice. of which she served 2 years of her sentence, she gets out and marries again that husband also dies, but she is not charged, later she marries again, this time she is caught and her husband barely survives being poisoned....and sentenced to guess what... Melissa Ann Shepard, now in her early 80s, is finishing a three-and-a-half year sentence for administering a noxious substance and failing to provide the necessaries of life to her husband at the time. three and a 1/2 years...she is made to serve the whole sentence....Now this is the her third kick at the cat....one would hope the judge would have seen a pattern here....nope and sentences her to the very hard sentence of 3 and half years....and we made her serve it all to....

This is what makes the average Canadian citizen sick....first over the conditions that prisoners have in our prison systems today, next is the cost of keeping our streets safe, prisoners live it up and laugh all the way to freedom,

Do you really think that?

and then the sentencing leaves most of us just scratching our heads and asking WTF just happened....

Criminal minds exist.

We can't convict without evidence.

Jail doesn't fix all of them.

What would you suggest?

.

Edited March 21, 2016 by jacee

[Army Guy]

He is locked up.

They think if he was treated worse it would make them feel better.

I doubt it.

.

Your misunderstanding my point. which covers a lot of individual points. Life sentence should mean life, 25 years or more, and it should apply to each life you take...next all the liberties they have now should be taken away, and paid for by the prisoner, want intra net, books, tv etc, pay for those services....Removing their right to vote, is another,

Every prisoner should be treated within Canadian human rights standards.

And every prisoner should work in some form to help keep costs to the tax payer down....

[Argus]

He is locked up.

They think if he was treated worse it would make them feel better.

I doubt it.

.

Who are you to tell the victim's family what they will feel if the murderer is appropriately punished?

[Argus]

Your misunderstanding my point. which covers a lot of individual points. Life sentence should mean life, 25 years or more, and it should apply to each life you take..

The problem with the parole system is that parole went from something which had to be earned by extraordinary effort by a criminal to reform himself, to something which is virtually automatic. Now you need a very good reason to deny parole, not a very good reason to grant one.

[Army Guy]

For-profit prisons:

we-must-end-for-profit-prisons

Not sure it's an answer. Doesn't seem to be working well.

Do you really think that?

Criminal minds exist.

We can't convict without evidence.

Jail doesn't fix all of them.

What would you suggest?

.

The example you provided is a privately run prison, and that's not what I am suggesting, these changes to should be made in our federal and provincial prisons.....But working, they are assisting in paying for they're day to day, upkeep, as well as programs for rehabilitation.

I do think that in the example I mention the women received 6 years for drugging her husband, then running him over with a car not once but twice to ensure he was dead....She made a choice to take his life, she planned it, carried it out, and our justice system charged her with manslaughter....gave her 6 years and she served 2 and half years.....That is what his life was worth....years later she does it again, only this time her husband does not die....once again she is sentenced to 3 and 1/2 years....

SO tell me Jacee how much is a life worth.....and while we are talking about sentencing and how long terms do nothing to decrease the return rate.....it must be clear that having ridicules low sentences does nothing either....

What would I suggest that Canadians agree on what a life is worth, and start from there....

[rotary]

Your misunderstanding my point. which covers a lot of individual points. Life sentence should mean life, 25 years or more, and it should apply to each life you take...next all the liberties they have now should be taken away, and paid for by the prisoner, want intra net, books, tv etc, pay for those services....Removing their right to vote, is another,

Every prisoner should be treated within Canadian human rights standards.

And every prisoner should work in some form to help keep costs to the tax payer down....

And while you're at it, make damn sure no prisoner ever gets rehabilitated before they return to the street.

[Big Guy]

And while you're at it, make damn sure no prisoner ever gets rehabilitated before they return to the street.

One method would be for the state to allow and facilitate castration and/or penile surgery to male sexual offenders who would request that process as a bid to get lesser jail time.

[rotary]

One method would be for the state to allow and facilitate castration and/or penile surgery to male sexual offenders who would request that process as a bid to get lesser jail time.

And that "method" displays total ignorance as to what drives sex offenses. Cutting appendages off offenders is kind of like Sharia law cutting the hands off people who steal something. Lets not go there.

[Army Guy]

No where in my post did I say rehabilitation programs would be cut....But instead of being solely paid for by taxpayers they could be assisted by the prisoners themselves through they're labor or by producing products which could be sold to the public...why is that so hard for you to grasp...

I'm not convinced that rehabilitation programs produce the results we expect for the costs we the tax payers put into them....I have already posted the reasons given for the reductions in crimes rates across Canada, and it does not mention rehabilitation in those reason....What it does mention that a high percentage of criminals do make they 're way back into the system, maybe it is just me, but that would be a good indicator that perhaps those programs need to be looked at...those that are not working discarded.....

Maybe just maybe , we could use the money we save from our failed prison systems, and put it towards the communities which seem to have high crime rates, address the problems that cause crime in the first place.....

Or maybe your one of those guys that thinks a life is not worth all that much, and that we should be shedding a tear for those convicts who have lost there way....I do believe in all life is precious, I don't believe in the death penalty, but I do belief that everyone is responsible for their own actions, good or bad....and if that person decides to take a life, for personal gain, or pleasure or for what ever twisted reason, then a full life sentence should be handed down, and it should be served in a max security prison, all of it....No exceptions....They should be put to work to pay their own way....it should not be a free ride like it is today....

when we have examples of people who have taken a life, and serve only 2 and half years , that is an example of our justice system not working.....goggle it there are hundreds of examples here in Canada of people serving less than 10 to 12 years in prison for murder.....and we are good with that it seems, Well your good with it, I am not....and when I address it I am labeled a conservative, or get your attitude like I was trying to take something away from you...

[Guest]

And that "method" displays total ignorance as to what drives sex offenses. Cutting appendages off offenders is kind of like Sharia law cutting the hands off people who steal something. Lets not go there.

Surgical or chemical castration reduces the production of testosterone to pre-pubescent levels, thus reducing or eliminating sexual urges helping the offender to suppress deviant thinking and behaviours. This process is nothing like the barbaric threat of removing hands meant to deter crime, it is actually an effective way to suppress the sex drive.

[Big Guy]

And that "method" displays total ignorance as to what drives sex offenses. Cutting appendages off offenders is kind of like Sharia law cutting the hands off people who steal something. Lets not go there.

I think I will go there:

"A subset of rapists is driven by abnormal sexual cravings, and lowering their testosterone diminishes those cravings," said Dr. Fred Berlin, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. "This is a very heterogeneous group of individuals, and a subgroup is driven by sadistic cravings. They are likely to be repeat offenders. Talk therapy cannot adequately help them and drugs can in those cases be helpful. … If we can make our communities safer, why wouldn't we?"

If the convict requests the procedure then I would provide it - including penile surgery to further decrease sexual drive.

[rotary]

I think I will go there:

"A subset of rapists is driven by abnormal sexual cravings, and lowering their testosterone diminishes those cravings," said Dr. Fred Berlin, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. "This is a very heterogeneous group of individuals, and a subgroup is driven by sadistic cravings. They are likely to be repeat offenders. Talk therapy cannot adequately help them and drugs can in those cases be helpful. … If we can make our communities safer, why wouldn't we?"

If the convict requests the procedure then I would provide it - including penile surgery to further decrease sexual drive.

It has been shown over and over that sexual abuse is not so much driven by sexual desire as it is by an abnormal need to control. That desire emanates from the brain, not from the groin.

[Big Guy]

It has been shown over and over that sexual abuse is not so much driven by sexual desire as it is by an abnormal need to control. That desire emanates from the brain, not from the groin.

I do not disagree. But the process of castration if effective in some cases. Some is better than none especially if it is the convict who requests the procedure.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Big Guy

[rotary]

I do not disagree. But the process of castration if effective in some cases. Some is better than none especially if it is the convict who requests the procedure.

I suppose if the offender requests it there may be some merit to proceeding. I still question the effectiveness, but it's not really atop my agenda of things to research, so I will admit my ignorance.

[carepov]

Here' show it's done:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18121914

Great results: "16% re-offending rate", at lower costs.

[Argus]

I"A subset of rapists is driven by abnormal sexual cravings, and lowering their testosterone diminishes those cravings," said Dr. Fred Berlin, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. "This is a very heterogeneous group of individuals, and a subgroup is driven by sadistic cravings.

This is an extremely tiny subset of rapists, who themselves are a small subset of criminals.

Serial rapists should be locked up permanently anyway.

[Argus]

Here' show it's done:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18121914

Great results: "16% re-offending rate[/size]", at lower costs.

Hardly likely to work in Canada, where our crime, particularly violent crime, is driven by minority populations Norway does not have.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Argus

[jacee]

The example you provided is a privately run prison, and that's not what I am suggesting, these changes to should be made in our federal and provincial prisons.....But working, they are assisting in paying for they're day to day, upkeep, as well as programs for rehabilitation.

Army Guy, there may be value in what you're suggesting, but you haven't researched it to see what the pros and cons are. Offhand, I would say that staffing and running such work programs would be very expensive and would require both Corrections and vocational staff.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/prison-work-programs-fail-inmates-and-the-public-documents-show/article6992471/?service=mobile

I suggest you research it further.

I do think that in the example I mention the women received 6 years for drugging her husband, then running him over with a car not once but twice to ensure he was dead....She made a choice to take his life, she planned it, carried it out, and our justice system charged her with manslaughter....gave her 6 years and she served 2 and half years.....That is what his life was worth....years later she does it again, only this time her husband does not die....once again she is sentenced to 3 and 1/2 years....

SO tell me Jacee how much is a life worth.....and while we are talking about sentencing and how long terms do nothing to decrease the return rate.....it must be clear that having ridicules low sentences does nothing either....

What would I suggest that Canadians agree on what a life is worth, and start from there....

I'm sure you know that sentences vary with the circumstances and motives, ranging from negligence to premeditation.

And also that prior crimes can seldom be introduced as evidence.

.

[eyeball]

No where in my post did I say rehabilitation programs would be cut....But instead of being solely paid for by taxpayers they could be assisted by the prisoners themselves through they're labor or by producing products which could be sold to the public...why is that so hard for you to grasp...

Besides the long sordid history of prison labour, free labour or labour so cheap it might as well be free is really counter-productive in a society that's so imbued with a moral imperative to produce, all it does is degrade the value of every working person's labour. That said I think self-employment programs where feasible could be explored and if there is a local shortage of workers near a corrections facility that employers be allowed to recruit workers from a pool of inmates that are eligible i.e. on the road to rehabilitation and paid exactly the same as their regular workers.

Their money should be theirs to keep not added with the debt to society they're also paying down.

Edited March 21, 2016 by eyeball