Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, what meager fund Canada has are often wasted or spent on contract cancellation fees.  

Very true, although we are not alone in that regard. A big part of the problem is that military procurements are (almost) never off the shelf.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Very true, although we are not alone in that regard. A big part of the problem is that military procurements are (almost) never off the shelf.

 

It's worse than that....no matter how badly Canada screws up DND procurements, its government(s) know they can always beg, borrow, and plead with the United States or other competently prepared nations to bail them out.  

[GostHacked]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's worse than that....no matter how badly Canada screws up DND procurements, its government(s) know they can always beg, borrow, and plead with the United States or other competently prepared nations to bail them out.  

Hey once your cohorts get that F-35 working properly we can talk. A Sopwith Camel has a better track record than the F-35.

[bush_cheney2004]

This latest F-18 Super Band-Aid is another great example of Canada asking another nation to save them from gross incompetence in managing Canada's DND procurement "file", regardless of ruling party.   It must be a "Canadian value".

Doesn't seem to matter what it is....rotary wing aircraft....medium airlift....heavy airlift...strike fighter....subs....always good for laughs.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[Omni]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This latest F-18 Super Band-Aid is another great example of Canada asking another nation to save them from gross incompetence in managing Canada's DND procurement "file", regardless of ruling party.   It must be a "Canadian value".

Doesn't seem to matter what it is....rotary wing aircraft....medium airlift....heavy airlift...strike fighter....subs....always good for laughs.

 

 

Actually we are saving ourselves from Lock-Marts "gross incompetence' at trying to build a one size fits all and ending up with a vehicle which doesn't really fit any specific need. Can't turn, can't climb, can't hide, you know.

[segnosaur]

16 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Hey once your cohorts get that F-35 working properly we can talk. A Sopwith Camel has a better track record than the F-35.

No fighter jet is 100% perfect. Even the F18 has had problems (the navy found significant structural problems with the wings that required significant repairs; plus, they still don't know why they are having problems with the pilot's oxygen supply.)

Its true that the F35 has had significant problems in the past. Yes, there are still some issues to be fixed. And yes, I'm sure there will probably be other glitches in the future. But the major problems have been ironed out, and the plane is more than stable enough to be used in service.

And there will always be trade offs. The F35 has far more capabilities than the F18 or the Gripen. But with that comes more complexity and more chance for something to go wrong. But if we stick to only minor changes (e.g. CF18 to Super Hornet) our air capabilities will probably fall far behind.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

Actually we are saving ourselves from Lock-Marts "gross incompetence' at trying to build a one size fits all and ending up with a vehicle which doesn't really fit any specific need. Can't turn, can't climb, can't hide, you know.

 

Different topic entirely....the international JSF program and buyers don't care about Canada's repeating procurement problems.   It's now so bad, your government has contacted my government and Boeing to cover their asses before airframe hours are used up by the remaining CF-18s.

"Hello...America...this is Canada again....can we lease/rent/buy some interim Super Hornets ?   As you know, we're not so good at planning and procurements."

[GostHacked]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This latest F-18 Super Band-Aid is another great example of Canada asking another nation to save them from gross incompetence in managing Canada's DND procurement "file", regardless of ruling party.   It must be a "Canadian value".

Doesn't seem to matter what it is....rotary wing aircraft....medium airlift....heavy airlift...strike fighter....subs....always good for laughs.

 

 

Hwy we'd be flying the F-35s..... but they don't work ... it's a manufacturing problem, not a procurement problem.

[Omni]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Different topic entirely....the international JSF program and buyers don't care about Canada's repeating procurement problems.   It's now so bad, your government has contacted my government and Boeing to cover their asses before airframe hours are used up by the remaining CF-18s.

"Hello...America...this is Canada again....can we lease/rent/buy some interim Super Hornets ?   As you know, we're not so good at planning and procurements."

Apparently we are good at it, which is why we are shying away from a sub standard, hugely high priced product. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

Apparently we are good at it, which is why we are shying away from a sub standard, hugely high priced product. 

 

That's fine, but it does not change the fact that Canada has kicked this can so far down the road, it now has to ask the USA/Boeing to provide a stop-gap solution.

Replacement aircraft were required over a decade ago.   If Super Hornets or other options were/are so great, why didn't Canada buy them ?

 

[Omni]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's fine, but it does not change the fact that Canada has kicked this can so far down the road, it now has to ask the USA/Boeing to provide a stop-gap solution.

Replacement aircraft were required over a decade ago.   If Super Hornets or other options were/are so great, why didn't Canada buy them ?

 

I guess because we didn't know how badly the bombtruck would fail, and because we had a conservative government with a one track narrow mind.

[segnosaur]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

We really don't need...

We need a plane of some type that is capable of meeting our basic defense requirements and our commitments to NATO.

,...and can't afford...

Actually we can. While there are accusations that the costs of the F35 are "out of control", the fact is that the unit price has dropped significantly as the production rate has increased, and will drop further in the near future. The F35A (the model we would get) already costs less than the Eurofighter Typhoon, and by the time we purchase them will probably be comparable to the F18. Also, considering that the production line will be active long after those of the Eurofigther, F18 and Gripen have shot down, long term maintenance will probably end up being cheaper in the long run.

Yes, jet fighters are expensive. Its the nature of the beast. But ALL such fighter jets are expensive.

Lets put this into perspective... The previous cost estimates for the F35 that the conservatives gave suggested ~$40 billion over 4 decades. That works out to roughly $1 billion/year. Canada spends roughly that amount on the CBC. If you don't think we can afford the F35 (something that contributes to national security) then you should also demand that the government get rid of the CBC.

...the "bomb truck" that needs an escort wherever it goes due to it's lack of maneuverability.

Except it doesn't. The whole claim that it "lacks maneuverability" comes from a very poorly thought out article on a website called "war is boring" where it looked at some flight tests pitting the F35 against the F16. The problem is, that was never a proper evaluation of the F35s ability to "dogfight". It was a test of its control surfaces to see what software tweeks could be made, and as a result its abilities have been improved.

From: https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/heres-what-ive-learned-so-far-dogfighting-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire. (The F-35 is capable of significantly higher Angle of Attack (AOA) than the F-16. Angle of Attack describes the angle between the longitudinal axis of the plane – where nose is pointing – and where the aircraft is actually heading – the vector). This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, it forces my opponent to react even more defensively, and it gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.

But at least now we will have an open competition.

But that's the problem. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Liberals are not having an "open competition". At least not now. They're buying a bunch of F18s, with no competition, and labeling it an "interim" measure. Which might mean that either later competitions are tainted, or we end up having a mixed fleet of F18s/F35s in the future, driving up costs.

[quote\ Sorry...the fix is in.   Trudeau lied about excluding the F-35 "bomb truck" from consideration. 

Sorry, but that's how open competitions work. You let potential suppliers compete. [/quote]

Trudeau made contradictory promises. He stated quite definitively that they would not buy the F35, AND he said they would hold an open competition. The problem is, if it were truly an open competition there is no way he could have guaranteed that the F35 would not be chosen (as has happened in multiple competitions around the world).

Think of the money we will save not buying things that don't really work and that we don't need in the first place. Like stealth both the Russians and Chineese can see through.

First of all, your claim that the Russians and Chinese can "see through" stealth is far from proven. There are claims from various people about magical radar systems that can detect stealth jets, but we've never seen proof of such technology deployed anywhere in any military in a way that would actually threaten a stealth jet.

Secondly, and more importantly, stealth is only one of the features of the F35, and why purchasing it makes sense. You also have: internal weapons bays (that minimize drag and increase useful speed and range), advanced avionics (sensors in the plane, plus its ability to communicate with other planes and ground forces), and the fact that the production line will probably be open for a lot longer than any of its competitors (making replacements and spare parts cheaper). Even if the F35 were not stealthy... Even if it broadcast a signal to all planes saying "Here I am!" there would still be reasons to consider buying it.

what's the latest unit cost of a bombtruck? (the nearest hundred million would be close enough) thanks

From: http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-f-35-not-too-pricey-performance-better

(An F35) ordered in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will cost $85 million in “then-year” dollars ($78 million in today’s dollars). That is in the same ballpark as the latest F16

Or how about from: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/the-super-hornet-under-the-microscope-how-the-fighter-jet-compares-to-the-f-35

The Danish Government approved a deal this week that quoted a price of $125 million per superhornet and $84 million per F35 in 2019

[bush_cheney2004]

27 minutes ago, Omni said:

I guess because we didn't know how badly the bombtruck would fail, and because we had a conservative government with a one track narrow mind.

 

True....all this has been is very bad guessing and lack of decisions.   Never able to decide, because that would mean actually spending some money.

"Hello....Boeing....<click>....Hello ?"

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

We need a plane of some type that is capable of meeting our basic defense requirements and our commitments to NATO.

 

 

Actually we can. While there are accusations that the costs of the F35 are "out of control", the fact is that the unit price has dropped significantly as the production rate has increased, and will drop further in the near future. The F35A (the model we would get) already costs less than the Eurofighter Typhoon, and by the time we purchase them will probably be comparable to the F18. Also, considering that the production line will be active long after those of the Eurofigther, F18 and Gripen have shot down, long term maintenance will probably end up being cheaper in the long run.

Yes, jet fighters are expensive. Its the nature of the beast. But ALL such fighter jets are expensive.

Lets put this into perspective... The previous cost estimates for the F35 that the conservatives gave suggested ~$40 billion over 4 decades. That works out to roughly $1 billion/year. Canada spends roughly that amount on the CBC. If you don't think we can afford the F35 (something that contributes to national security) then you should also demand that the government get rid of the CBC.

 

 

Except it doesn't. The whole claim that it "lacks maneuverability" comes from a very poorly thought out article on a website called "war is boring" where it looked at some flight tests pitting the F35 against the F16. The problem is, that was never a proper evaluation of the F35s ability to "dogfight". It was a test of its control surfaces to see what software tweeks could be made, and as a result its abilities have been improved.

From: https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/heres-what-ive-learned-so-far-dogfighting-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire. (The F-35 is capable of significantly higher Angle of Attack (AOA) than the F-16. Angle of Attack describes the angle between the longitudinal axis of the plane – where nose is pointing – and where the aircraft is actually heading – the vector). This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, it forces my opponent to react even more defensively, and it gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.

 

 

But that's the problem. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Liberals are not having an "open competition". At least not now. They're buying a bunch of F18s, with no competition, and labeling it an "interim" measure. Which might mean that either later competitions are tainted, or we end up having a mixed fleet of F18s/F35s in the future, driving up costs.

 

 

Sorry, but that's how open competitions work. You let potential suppliers compete. [/quote]

Trudeau made contradictory promises. He stated quite definitively that they would not buy the F35, AND he said they would hold an open competition. The problem is, if it were truly an open competition there is no way he could have guaranteed that the F35 would not be chosen (as has happened in multiple competitions around the world).

 

 

First of all, your claim that the Russians and Chinese can "see through" stealth is far from proven. There are claims from various people about magical radar systems that can detect stealth jets, but we've never seen proof of such technology deployed anywhere in any military in a way that would actually threaten a stealth jet.

Secondly, and more importantly, stealth is only one of the features of the F35, and why purchasing it makes sense. You also have: internal weapons bays (that minimize drag and increase useful speed and range), advanced avionics (sensors in the plane, plus its ability to communicate with other planes and ground forces), and the fact that the production line will probably be open for a lot longer than any of its competitors (making replacements and spare parts cheaper). Even if the F35 were not stealthy... Even if it broadcast a signal to all planes saying "Here I am!" there would still be reasons to consider buying it.

 

 

From: http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-f-35-not-too-pricey-performance-better

(An F35) ordered in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will cost $85 million in “then-year” dollars ($78 million in today’s dollars). That is in the same ballpark as the latest F16

Or how about from: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/the-super-hornet-under-the-microscope-how-the-fighter-jet-compares-to-the-f-35

The Danish Government approved a deal this week that quoted a price of $125 million per superhornet and $84 million per F35 in 2019

If you think the test pilot's actual report of how poorly he thought of the F 35 is the only negative critique of the F 35, I can assure you there are plenty more. Here's just one.

http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/the-f-35-is-still-a-mess/

[Omni]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True....all this has been is very bad guessing and lack of decisions.   Never able to decide, because that would mean actually spending some money.

"Hello....Boeing....<click>....Hello ?"

Sounds exactly like Stephen Harper calling Lock-Mart. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

Sounds exactly like Stephen Harper calling Lock-Mart. 

 

Such political infighting is another reason why this "file" is such a mess.  

 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Such political infighting is another reason why this "file" is such a mess.  

 

Thankfully we now have had an election and are on the road to solving that "mess" with an open competition where potential suppliers will have to prove their wares.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

Thankfully we now have had an election and are on the road to solving that "mess" with an open competition where potential suppliers will have to prove their wares.

 

No they don't...they can ignore/no bid the process.    Canada hasn't even defined the requirements to meet/prove after all this time.   It's just a continuous circle-jerk.

[Omni]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No they don't...they can ignore/no bid the process.    Canada hasn't even defined the requirements to meet/prove after all this time.   It's just a continuous circle-jerk.

Oh don't worry, Lock-Mart will still be able to compete.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

Oh don't worry, Lock-Mart will still be able to compete.

 

If you mean suing Canada, then it certainly will compete.

[Omni]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If you mean suing Canada, then it certainly will compete.

Naw, we still get to make bomb truck parts regardless of which plane we choose.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

Naw, we still get to make bomb truck parts regardless of which plane we choose.

 

And LockMart will continue to take Canadian defence dollars.   Canada's choices are defined by foreigners. 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

And LockMart will continue to take Canadian defence dollars.   Canada's choices are defined by foreigners. 

And we will continue to employ high tech jobs people with US defense dollars. Thanks and good luck in the upcoming competition.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Omni said:

And we will continue to employ high tech jobs people with US defense dollars. Thanks and good luck in the upcoming competition.

 

What competition ?    Begging the U.S./Boeing for Super Hornets is not competition.

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

What competition ?    Begging the U.S./Boeing for Super Hornets is not competition.

Buying 18 to fill the gap until the competition is decided is what's hapenning FYI. But once again, good luck to Lock-Mart. But they will need more than luck.