waldo Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 You mean like I keep asking you why every western country has turned up its nose at the decrepit old Super Hornet and decided to buy something else instead? you mean like I keep asking you to put definition and quantitative attachments to your repeated statement... where I keep asking you to put forward actual purchased numbers (contracts and money exchanged) and the time frame around those purchases... where I keep asking you to provide a comparative correlation between those actual purchases and the original commitment numbers? Like that, 'keep asking' - like that? I was sure the lil' review of Denmark's sale would have emboldened you forward; apparently not! Here, let me try again: perhaps you'd like to comment further on that Denmark sale: as reference, the original early program commitment had Denmark purchasing 48... over time (per countries concerns with delays, under delivery, suspect results, over costing, etc..), that got peeled back to 30... and now settles in at the 27 purchased. Since others around here have shown no qualms in the past in taking a quoted sale price (without regard to specifics of the sale) and equating it to a per/plane costing, let's examine in that regard: 20 billion Kroner equates to the $3 billion U.S. figure quoted... which comes in at ~$112 million U.S. per plane. Which, of course in current Canadian exchange equivalent comes in at ~$3.8 billion and ~$142 million per plane. How do those costs sit with you, hey? what seems to be somewhat lost in this hyping of the Denmark sale is it's 27 planes between the 2021 and 2026 period... it's odd that they're waiting so long - I mean, didn't they just evaluate "something"? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). The point of emphasizing the significantly reduced commitment number is that it's not unique to Denmark... notwithstanding mega-uncertainty concerning just what numbers the respective branches of the U.S. military will ultimately purchase. All these continued F-35 cost projections presume on expected sale numbers/volume purchases - why should anyone have confidence in any projections coming forward from JPO/LockMart? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 It's a twenty year old airplane. Why is calling it 'old' any less accurate than calling it 'super'? If we build some spitfires will they be 'new'? The F-35, by the same measure, is a 10 year old airplane. You would own a 10 year old phone? See how stupid that comparison is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 You mean like I keep asking you why every western country has turned up its nose at the decrepit old Super Hornet and decided to buy something else instead? Very few countries bought the original hornet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Very few countries bought the original hornet. I count 7 international customers...Australia, Canada, Finland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Spain, and Switzerland. Is that very few ? NAVAIR provides mid life cycle support through the ISS program....Canada has been all over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 The F-35, by the same measure, is a 10 year old airplane. You would own a 10 year old phone? See how stupid that comparison is? The F-35 is just undergoing its final trials and adjustments. It is at the same stage the F-18 was at more than 20 years ago. Your complaint is inane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I count 7 international customers...Australia, Canada, Finland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Spain, and Switzerland. was that the point being made... how many of those countries purchased it in line with initial release offering... and how many did so, 15-20 years later? 2 of those 7, right? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 was that the point being made... how many of those countries purchased it in line with initial release offering... and how many did so, 15-20 years later? 2 of those 7, right? . USN, USMC, Canada, Australia and Spain all purchased the aircraft in the early 80s.......the others, nearer the end of production in the 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 The F-35 is just undergoing its final trials and adjustments. It is at the same stage the F-18 was at more than 20 years ago. Your complaint is inane. no other comment you've made showcases just how uninformed you are! I would suggest you googly concurrency as relates to the F-35 development methodology... from there, look at the latest scheduled development "propaganda" that presumably speaks to "actual production" dates. Start there. From there get into the state of known and impacting problems... the ones that are actually being made public. how are you doing on my repeat ask - have you done the review/analysis yet... do you have the numbers yet? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 no other comment you've made showcases just how uninformed you are! I would suggest you googly concurrency as relates to the F-35 development methodology... from there, look at the latest scheduled development "propaganda" that presumably speaks to "actual production" dates. Start there. From there get into the state of known and impacting problems... the ones that are actually being made public. how are you doing on my repeat ask - have you done the review/analysis yet... do you have the numbers yet? . As soon as you tell me why no western government wants the super hornet instead of the F-35, General. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 USN, USMC, Canada, Australia and Spain all purchased the aircraft in the early 80s.......the others, nearer the end of production in the 90s. the discussion point was on foreign nation sales... but hey, if it makes a difference to you, yes add those U.S. military branches in. Wait now... how is it whenever some damning critique on the 'B' and 'C' F-35 variants has been offered in the many MLW F-35 related threads, your typical response has been along the lines of, "no worries... that's not the military branch variant Canada is purchasing". . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I count 7 international customers...Australia, Canada, Finland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Spain, and Switzerland. Is that very few ? NAVAIR provides mid life cycle support through the ISS program....Canada has been all over that. As to original operators, the F-16 only started with the USAF and four European operators (Belgium, the Dutch, Norway and Denmark) and Israel .......once they added a halfway decent radar, sales flourished and the market for the more expensive and poorly constructed Hornet vanished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 As soon as you tell me why no western government wants the super hornet instead of the F-35, General. no - your suggestion that "not purchasing" is a testament to "wanting" doesn't pass the smell-test! Why... look at Canada Clearly, you won't touch that repeat ask being directed to you - of course you won't! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 the discussion point was on foreign nation sales... but hey, if it makes a difference to you, yes add those U.S. military branches in. Wait now... how is it whenever some damning critique on the 'B' and 'C' F-35 variants has been offered in the many MLW F-35 related threads, your typical response has been along the lines of, "no worries... that's not the military branch variant Canada is purchasing". . And that would then be three for the Hornet versus five for the Falcon..............I added the Marines because they were one of the original operators, I didn't realize the qualification was for foreign sales.......in that case, compared to other Western aircraft's entrance into service in the late 70s and early 80s, in regards to foreign sales to original operators, the Hornet is no different then other aircraft entering service in that time frame (F-16, F-15, Tornado etc)..........The Super Hornet was the disappointment, with nations largely going with the latest block of the F-16 or even F-15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 no - your suggestion that "not purchasing" is a testament to "wanting" doesn't pass the smell-test! Why... look at Canada Clearly, you won't touch that repeat ask being directed to you - of course you won't! . And he is right, to date the only foreign sale is attributed to the proposed electronic warfare variant of the Strike Eagle never materialising...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 no - your suggestion that "not purchasing" is a testament to "wanting" doesn't pass the smell-test! Why... look at Canada Clearly, you won't touch that repeat ask being directed to you - of course you won't! Canada's government is anti-military and would buy nothing if it could get away with it. And it's sole reason, presuming it buys the F-18, will be to avoid the embarrassment of purchasing the aircraft it fought against (for crass political purposes) for years. In that respect it would buy any aircraft, without regard to its capabilities, since it's only care is political. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) .... In that respect it would buy any aircraft, without regard to its capabilities, since it's only care is political. I think there is universal agreement on that...this is first and foremost a political exercise....a choice that Canada would rather not make...again. Edited June 13, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 ..........The Super Hornet was the disappointment, with nations largely going with the latest block of the F-16 or even F-15. I believe the point being made... or at least the way I took it, was that not all countries "jumped on the early Hornet bandwagon". As much as you refuse to acknowledge it, the same can be said for the F-35 in terms of actual foreign sales... actual contracted sales with money exchanged with a pointed emphasis in stating the actual dates (over what time period, beginning and ending dates). Notwithstanding, again, what actual numbers will materialize from the respective U.S. military branches... funding is turning out to be a real beeatch! Surely, all this talk of resurrecting the F-22 has to mean something to you - if yes, what; if no, why not? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 And he is right, to date the only foreign sale is attributed to the proposed electronic warfare variant of the Strike Eagle never materialising...... huh! You're out of context (or I am)... where did the F-15 reference come from? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) I count 7 international customers...Australia, Canada, Finland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Spain, and Switzerland. As far as Super Hornet follow-on orders: Australia - already order and delivered Canada - ? Finland - Super Hornet under evaluation Kuwait - Stated intent to order 28 Super Hornets Malaysia - Ordered Russian fighter, but has another pending order and considering Super Hornet Spain -? Switzerland - ? Edited June 13, 2016 by ?Impact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) Canada's government is anti-military and would buy nothing if it could get away with it. And it's sole reason, presuming it buys the F-18, will be to avoid the embarrassment of purchasing the aircraft it fought against (for crass political purposes) for years. In that respect it would buy any aircraft, without regard to its capabilities, since it's only care is political. this comment only solidifies your crass partisanship on the subject. To the typically uninformed, objections to the F-35 stemmed from the tactics Harper Conservatives used to push the purchase. To the informed, objections to the F-35 are also those and the actual long-tired history of the failed program. I'll keep asking: not that many posts back you acknowledged being 'uninformed' to the particulars of the F-35 aircraft itself... that you're simply basing your position on the number of nations "involved". Yet, in that regard, somehow... you can't even speak to the involvement you presume to leverage - again, the repeat ask you refuse to address and respond to. . Edited June 13, 2016 by waldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I think there is universal agreement on that...this is first and foremost a political exercise....a choice that Canada would rather not make...again. this makes no sense and has no basis in fact. Your "making no choice" doesn't quite line up with bringing forward an 'interim gap filling' consideration, does it? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 As far as Super Hornet follow-on orders: ...Canada - ? Canada is still dithering...expected their Horners to last as long as Sea King helicopters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) this comment only solidifies your crass partisanship on the subject. To the typically uninformed, objections to the F-35 stemmed from the tactics Harper Conservatives used to push the purchase. There has never been a member of this web site as crass a political partisan as you, Waldo. It's pretty rich you accusing anyone else of it. I, in fact, criticized the Harper government repeatedly on the military file. As for uninformed, General, your own majestic expertise in military avionics seems curiously at odds with that of every other western general. I again give you an opportunity to explain how your brilliant military know-how is so much greater than all of them. Edited June 13, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) There has never been a member of this web site as crass a political partisan as you, Waldo. It's pretty rich you accusing anyone else of it. I, in fact, criticized the Harper government repeatedly on the military file. As for uninformed, General, your own majestic expertise in military avionics seems curiously at odds with that of every other western general. I again give you an opportunity to explain how your brilliant military know-how is so much greater than all of them. wassup - you said it yourself... you self-acknowledged you weren't informed - I can look for your post if you'd like. Still waiting for your numbers - soon? I've already spoken of your tired refrain about being "equal opportunity critical" - it don't fly! CUlater... some kind of game on now . Edited June 13, 2016 by waldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I believe the point being made... or at least the way I took it, was that not all countries "jumped on the early Hornet bandwagon". Not my point, quite the opposite, both the Hornet and Falcon did well with initial sales in a then flooded market, both offering nations cutting edge advanced technology in a then unproven aircraft...........its really quite surprising, when many nations could have went with the "proven" decades old F-4 Phantom or A-7 Corsair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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