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There is this myth that Muslims don't criticize ISIS or radicalism enough or that it's seldom that it happens. But the opposite is the truth.

Take these Muslims in London who speak out against the radical Muslims, who are actually afraid to go close to mosques, where other Muslims would criticize them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R20IslSfk

Edited by Charles Anthony
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There is this myth that Muslims don't criticize ISIS or radicalism enough or that it's seldom that it happens. But the opposite is the truth.

Take these Muslims in London who speak out against the radical Muslims, who are actually afraid to go close to mosques, where other Muslims would criticize them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R20IslSfk

There is no myth. Muslims criticize Muslims all the time. I've posted such on here. There can be consequences though, and as Cybercoma pointed out, they are very brave.

Edited by bcsapper
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Funny thing is, it's people like her that the forum nationalists would keep out.

Well, I suppose I'm one of the "forum nationalists", so I ought to respond. ("nationalists"? Come on, cyber, no need to sugar-coat it. Why not Nativists or Know-Nothings? Tell us how you really feel.)

First off, let me point out that me and the other "nationalists" here are aware that people like Ms Shams exist. I just don't think she's representative of the typical Saudi. No, it's not "people like her" that I'd keep out. Sadly, that part of the world has an awful lot of people well-deserving of being kept out. Personally I think it would be great if we could smuggle the few worth having out of the Kingdom... but I don't see how.

Second, I agree with what she's saying. Myself and the other Know-Nothings here at the forum have been saying similar things. The "Team Islam" members here at the forum, on the other hand, vehemently disagree with her, particularly the part where she says "we've been fighting for 1400 years... why do we blame everything on the West?" When the Nativists here ask "why can't the other Arab countries take the refugees instead?" or "why do they blame everything on the West?" or "why do these countries suck so much?" it draws howls of outrage from the Team Islam posters... yet you guys are holding Ms Shams up as an example of how we Nationalists ought to appreciate Muslims more. How come you guys aren't tearing her apart for her anti-Muslim views?

-k

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Personally I think it would be great if we could smuggle the few worth having out of the Kingdom... but I don't see how.

The few worth having. Really?? And you speak from what pinnacle of authority in saying that?

Second, I agree with what she's saying. Myself and the other Know-Nothings here at the forum have been saying similar things. The "Team Islam" members here at the forum, on the other hand, vehemently disagree with her, particularly the part where she says "we've been fighting for 1400 years... why do we blame everything on the West?" When the Nativists here ask "why can't the other Arab countries take the refugees instead?" or "why do they blame everything on the West?" or "why do these countries suck so much?" it draws howls of outrage from the Team Islam posters... yet you guys are holding Ms Shams up as an example of how we Nationalists ought to appreciate Muslims more. How come you guys aren't tearing her apart for her anti-Muslim views?

First of all, you claim to agree with what she is saying. I didn't hear her say there were only "a few worth having" when it comes to Muslims. Second, she speaks from a position of knowledge, having lived there and not just read things in the media. Third, just because she disagrees with the conservative a-hole who is interviewing her doesn't mean she is going to turn around and agree with you about her culture or her faith.

There's a big difference between her criticizing her own culture/religion. and outsiders who know very little making sweeping denigrating comments about the whole of Islam. Nobody is going to mistake her for a bigot when she says these things.

I don't know how you can fail to get that.

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The few worth having. Really?? And you speak from what pinnacle of authority in saying that?

First of all, you claim to agree with what she is saying. I didn't hear her say there were only "a few worth having" when it comes to Muslims. Second, she speaks from a position of knowledge, having lived there and not just read things in the media. Third, just because she disagrees with the conservative a-hole who is interviewing her doesn't mean she is going to turn around and agree with you about her culture or her faith.

There's a big difference between her criticizing her own culture/religion. and outsiders who know very little making sweeping denigrating comments about the whole of Islam. Nobody is going to mistake her for a bigot when she says these things.

I don't know how you can fail to get that.

There's no difference between her criticizing her religion and culture, and me doing so, as long as the bits being criticized deserve it. You don't have to be a member to criticize the membership of any group.

Imagine if people couldn't criticize other groups without being a member.

Edited by bcsapper
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No there isn't. If a religion or culture is worthy of criticism I can criticize it. End of story.

I will grant you that she undoubtedly has seen more reasons for criticizing it.

Or is that what you mean? Of course, her criticism is more meaningful because she has been closer to the horrors, while I have only heard of them second hand.

Still, nothing wrong with me ctitcizing them as well.

Edited by bcsapper
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You see, while she's criticizing ISIS and the horrors that you speak of, you are talking about criticizing her religion and culture. That's the difference that some people seem to be missing. She's not condemning her culture or religion at all. For all we know she's very religious and perhaps even proud of her culture. Living there and being a part of it, she clearly knows that West African Muslims have a different culture from Indonesian ones who have a different culture from Arab Peninsula ones. She recognizes that there are political forces competing within the same countries and communities. We see that in the interview even as she butts heads with the interviewer.

This is the problem with ethnocentric criticism from outside. To many people here, they are all "those people." They don't recognize that the breadth of political and religious opinions that exist in our culture also exists in theirs. It's funny that we can talk about Canadian culture and ask 12 different people what it is and get 16 different answers. However, when we talk about their culture, suddenly it's monolithic. Suddenly they all believe what our strawman of heir culture is. They all believe our strawman of their religion or they're not "true Muslims." Yet, what many here argue are he "true Muslims" are the kind of people we would are NOT the true Canadians or true Christians in our society. He problem with most of the ethnocentric criticism is not that it condemns violence and atrocities (as well it should). The problem is that it lumps the victims in the Middle East in with the oppressors by failing to recognize the differences in their people that would otherwise be recognized in our own people.

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I just criticize the bad bits. The bad people, and the bad practices, the bad rules, the bad laws, the bad attitudes, etc.

I don't ever think they are all "those people". I think that is just a phrase, along with "all Muslims" and "the whole of Islam" used to try and shut down warranted criticism when it is unpalatable to some.

Do you think you and I differ in our attitude towards Islam? I bet we don't. I bet it's just that I care less who knows it.

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....

How come you guys aren't tearing her apart for her anti-Muslim views?

-k

If you are going to create teams and call one of them "Team Islam" would it not be fair to call the opposing one "Team Islamophobia"?

Personally, I do not believe in grouping people according to their views on one single issue. There are nuances to nationalism, xenophobia, racism, prejudice and patriotism that should differentiate the extent of their thinking, degree of misunderstanding and/or strength of conviction.

Edited by Big Guy
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There's no difference between her criticizing her religion and culture, and me doing so, as long as the bits being criticized deserve it. You don't have to be a member to criticize the membership of any group.

Imagine if people couldn't criticize other groups without being a member.

It really comes down to intent. Not you personally of course (so please don't counter with that), but a lot of the team-no-Islam certainly don't have good constructive reasons for their criticism.

It's like Michelle Obama discussing violence in inner city schools vs. the head of the KKK doing it. The facts may be the same, the intention certainly is different.

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....It's like Michelle Obama discussing violence in inner city schools vs. the head of the KKK doing it. The facts may be the same, the intention certainly is different.

So it would be better (more credible) for the KKK national director to discuss violence in a non "inner city" school ? Violent gang leaders would have much more street cred than Michelle Obama. Relevance to Saudi singers and ISIS is not clear.

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It really comes down to intent. Not you personally of course (so please don't counter with that), but a lot of the team-no-Islam certainly don't have good constructive reasons for their criticism.

It's like Michelle Obama discussing violence in inner city schools vs. the head of the KKK doing it. The facts may be the same, the intention certainly is different.

But it is only me that Cybercoma and I were discussing. If he had said that to MrCanada I could have seen his point. ( I don't see any equivalent to that poster currently on this board. I see people who have different views than me on the subject, but not unjustifiable views. Of course, I don't read all the posts)

I don't get your analogy, though. It would be actually be like a headmaster in an inner city school and Michelle Obama discussing the violence, with me as Michelle.

I do understand that there are racists, bigots and xenophobes out there. I do not understand why criticizing Islam places one among their ranks. There is so much to criticize. I would challenge anyone to disagree with that last sentence.

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It wasn't a discussion between you and cybercoma.

Reefermadness responded to Kimmy's post (about this woman saying all the same things that would invoke anger if other people say it) and you responded to RM that criticism of a culture should be open to everyone, not just the people of that culture.

I agree, however, my counter-point is that intent is key to when that criticism is deemed constructive and when it's not. When this woman criticizes elements within her culture, her aim is to improve the society around her. When your typical Islamaphobe does it, it's to dehumanize, exclude and justify committing crimes of war.

Again, I'm not talking about you, I'm adding to the point RM made earlier about why malicious criticism cannot be conflated with constructive criticism.

Edited by BC_chick
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My mistake. Cybercoma came in after that. He also disagrees with my contention that criticism of a culture should be open to everyone, not just the people of that culture.

I disagree with your third paragraph. Criticism doesn't have to be constructive. In fact, I don't see how my criticism of Islam could be. They aren't going to change because I say so. It's just criticism.

Your criticism of Islamophobes is the same. Not constructive, but perfectly justified, in that, you are criticising actions you find despicable.

So would I, if I thought they were doing it without justification. It's difficult to avoid justification, though. That's why I don't think there are as many Islamophobes around as you think. I think people just don't like the bits of Islam they don't like, and that's fair enough.

I disagree with your war crimes comment, probably because I disagree with your definition of war crimes.

I understand that you are not talking about me specifically, and I go out of my way, generally, (sometimes against my better judgement. I feel it ought to be a given) to show that my criticism of Islam is not all encompassing.

Edited by bcsapper
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There is this myth that Muslims don't criticize ISIS or radicalism enough or that it's seldom that it happens. But the opposite is the truth.

Take these Muslims in London who speak out against the radical Muslims, who are actually afraid to go close to mosques, where other Muslims would criticize them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R20IslSfk

I agree. Another great example is Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

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My mistake. Cybercoma came in after that. He also disagrees with my contention that criticism of a culture should be open to everyone, not just the people of that culture.

I didn't say it shouldn't be open to everyone. Anyone can criticize. We were discussing how there is a difference, I thought. I never said anyone shouldn't do anything. I just said it's different and gave examples of how and explained why. Edited by cybercoma
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