Abortion

[Cartman]

If abortion were forbidden, what would happen? Many women would seek illegal abortions and no doubt various people of questionable abilities would provide the service. The human cost would be great, as it was in the past.

The State should enact restrictions that are enforceable. If it cannot enforce a rule, it should not have the rule in the first place.

This is how I view this issue also.

I think that abortion is murder. The only choice the woman had in normal cases was to have the baby in the first place. You shouldn't go back on a decision you made months ago.

Do you think that abortions indicate a change of mind? I mean, one day you want a baby and then all of a sudden for no apparent reason you say "meh...no thanx"?

If men could get pregnant BBM, I wonder if you would sing the same tune? Abortion would not even be an issue if men could get pregnant.

[August1991]

I suppose the one thing that distinguishes abortion from the rest of your examples is that it is the only instance in which the individual concerned is not aware (although in cases where euthanasia is indicated mental abilities may well be diminished)

Civilians caught up in war are innocent. Inadequate medical facilities or slow ambulance response times mean that perfectly innocent people will die. These situations are known but the "cost" is, I suppose, considered too great to correct.

The chance of Air Force One crashing is much smaller than any plane you or I will ever fly in. But it would be too costly to verify every plane the way Air Force One is verified. Asa result, innocent people will die.

These examples are not really different from your foetus example.

Personally I think there are circumstances in which it would be immoral not to offer abortion as an option - such as rape victims who become pregnant.

To be honest, I have never understood why abortion in the case of rape is different from abortion in any other situation. I fear it is a distinction made by men.

Ultimately what seems needed is (as stated by BD) good sex ed and availability of contraceptives etc. Reducing the incidence of unexpected/unplanned pregnancy will reduce the number of people who must face this hard choice.

Yes, of course. But I think (almost) all can agree on that. The problem of abortion will still arise when all this fails, as it will sometimes. ( A few weeks ago a young guy came to me and told me his girlfriend is pregnant...)

There's a very blarge differnce between life (in the strict biological sense) and personhoood (as a legal definition). Life does begin at conception. But then, ovums and spermatoza are also "alive" in the biological sense.

The question is whether we can deem a foetus to be human.

I disagree BD.

The Catholic Church once considered masturbation and homosexuality as sins because it amounted to "wasted seed" and "killing". (See Anthony Burgess' Earthly Powers.) It certainly considered taking a contraceptive pill as "murder".

IMV, abortion debates too often become debates about "When does life begin?" Then, there are finer debates about "life" and "personhood" and "life in a legal sense" and so on.

I find these debates pointless and sterile (excuse the term).

[Tawasakm]

These examples are not really different from your foetus example.

Well I was thinking they are because in every other instance the individuals involved had had some chance to interact with their environment, make choices which affected their development, love, play, kiss, hug, frown, throw a tantrum and so on and so forth. All the others have had an opportunity to do at least some of these even if their choices are later taken away or restricted (conscription etc). To my mind this makes the foetus example unique amongst those examples. Its not really an important point - I just wanted to make myself a little clearer.

I agree in principle with your philosophy of 'pragmatism' primarily because of the messy consequences to a more idealistic approach.

[Big Blue Machine]

God would never throw something at you that you can't handle. So have the baby and love him/her. They miht turn out to be great people. Why waste a human life?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

To be honest, I have never understood why abortion in the case of rape is different from abortion in any other situation. I fear it is a distinction made by men.

I believe there is a difference, and it is one of 'choice'. A woman who willingly engages in sex runs the risk of pregnancy, and she should know it. A rape victim is offered no choice. She could fervently believe that she never wants a child, even to the point of lifelong chastity, and yet a rapist could change that. Her only choice to avoid becoming a mother would be to never leave the house, and even then it is no gurantee. I think the 'rape exception' is founded in the belief for some that 'abortion is wrong except for...'

I understand that the singer for Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nicks, had something like 4 or 5 abortions because pregnancy (and motherhood) would have interfered with her touring schedule. I disagree with abortion being used as birth control, but, since she was a coke addict I suspect that the 'quality of life' of those children would have been severely affected.

That being said, it is far easier to judge others from the comfort of this forum than from being in their shoes.

[lowly_caterpillar]

God would never throw something at you that you can't handle. So have the baby and love him/her. They miht turn out to be great people. Why waste a human life?

Involving a supposed god in this is detracting from the focus of the debate, you can generalise and assume that all people are/or believe to be under the control of a supreme power, there are other forums for that exact debate.

I believe there is a difference, and it is one of 'choice'. A woman who willingly engages in sex runs the risk of pregnancy, and she should know it. A rape victim is offered no choice. She could fervently believe that she never wants a child, even to the point of lifelong chastity, and yet a rapist could change that. Her only choice to avoid becoming a mother would be to never leave the house, and even then it is no gurantee. I think the 'rape exception' is founded in the belief for some that 'abortion is wrong except for...'

I completely agree with you on this Thelonius, you can't compare consentual sex with forced sex, and think about instances of incestuous rape, not only would it be illegal to have had such relations but imagine the torment that this child would suffer in life.

If we were to pretend that rape is now illegal, think of all of the children who would have been aborted for health reasons and concern for their quality of life (I don't believe that this should be the sole motivation, but it's better than "oops the condom broke sooo....")they would most likely be put up for adoption, it'd be lovely to think that everyone adopting children would be indifferent to their health problem but unfortunately this is not always the case.

Any other views on this I cant really go much further without contradicting myself on this one.

[The Terrible Sweal]

The question is whether we can deem a foetus to be human.

I think the question is different. Indeed, at some point on the continuum of zygote-blastocyst-embryo-fetus-baby, law does define when 'personhood' arises. But there are two other interests which must be given account: the woman and the state/society. For example, at whatever point personhood occurs, it may nevertheless not trump the woman's right to liberty. Also for example, the state may have some legitimate interest in the handling of fetuses in and of themselve, whether or not they are 'persons'.

[Chloe]

Choice Choice Choice, people need to put the word choice into perspective. As far as I am concerned you are a person and a huamn being the moment your are concieved, why, because the potential to develop into a person, who can contribute to society in a positive way is there. Therefore you should have the right to life and nobody should dare take it away from you.

A woman's right, free choice and liberty, blah blah blah, undoubtably, in this case, is only looking out for herself, and not the child who does not have the capacity to defend their right in this issue. I know people believe a woman raped who now has the repsonsibilty of a child to deal with because of it must have the right to abort, because they did not ask to be raped is right. However this is a view point I do not agree with. The child did not ask to be concieved in such a condition and thus it must also have the right to live. Women go through hardships all the time and manage to rise above it, why should having a child you don't want and giving it up for adoption be any different.

Futhermore in such an unfortunate case as rape, it does not however involve the majority of women who decide to have an abortion, but its of those women who see it as another birth control pill. Since when did we constitute death as right because doctors are committing the act or law officials are committing the act. It's distatesfull, and shamefull that people would resort to such levels. I know of girls who have had abortions because they did not want the responsibilty, AND say they could have easily avoided the sitaution if they wanted. So these are the woman who should have the "liberty" to do what they want even though they are preventing a life when they knew they could prevent the situation from even occuring. What conditions constitute abortion as an okay way to go. I see none, and the whole concept chills me.

Please ladies, lets fight for woman's rights with issues that have integrity and are valid.

[Black Dog]

As far as I am concerned you are a person and a huamn being the moment your are concieved, why, because the potential to develop into a person, who can contribute to society in a positive way is there. Therefore you should have the right to life and nobody should dare take it away from you

Do you support comprehensive sex education at the elementary school-level? Condoms in schools? HIV/AIDS education programs?

A woman's right, free choice and liberty, blah blah blah, undoubtably, in this case, is only looking out for herself, and not the child who does not have the capacity to defend their right in this issue.

Well, duh. Sorry, but the fact is, not everyone who has sex is able to handle the burdens of parenthood. You could argue that people just shouldn't have sex, but to argue that is to argue against human nature and biology.

Women go through hardships all the time and manage to rise above it, why should having a child you don't want and giving it up for adoption be any different.

Because you're talking about forcing someone

(even someone who has undergone the trauma of rape) to sacrifice nine months of their life to carry a child they didn't want. Pregnancy and childbirth are no walk in the park and not everyone is equipped to handle it (mentally, physically, financially etc.) especially those who didn't want a child in the first place.

I know of girls who have had abortions because they did not want the responsibilty, AND say they could have easily avoided the sitaution if they wanted. 

What self-rigteoous hogwash. I know several women who've had abortions: some were careless and others mere victims of circumstance. But the one thing that holds true in every case is that abortion, though an unpleasant experience for all, was the only realistic choice.

I think we can dispense with the emotional nonsesnse about pregnancy, childbirth and parenthood. It is not a magical experience for everyone: for a great number of women who don't have access to safe, legal abortions, pregnancy means your life is ruined. And, frankly, if terminating one "potential" life means saving an existing member of society from ruination, that's a tradeoff I'm willing to allow.

[Big Blue Machine]

The only choice the woman has in a NORMAL case was having the baby in the first place. They can't handle the responilibity, so what? They can live with it. I know two girls. They are 17 and 18, and they both had babys.

[greyhound]

The question is whether we can deem a foetus to be human.

Why the hell do you think we humans call it an "embryo" for at least the first couple of months?

Why is it that only humans call it an embryo for months, while the rest of the animal kingdom chooses to call it a "foetus" right from the start?

You want the truth? I don't think you can handle the truth. Still, I will tell you.

It wouldn't even cross any other animal's mind to get rid of it, so they don't have to pretend that it's not yet a foetus so that they can dump it.

Admit it! Humans are ugly!

[ontariogal22]

I am late here... BUT

I believe in pro-choice.

Bottom line, even being a mature and responsible adult, no birth control is ever 100%. And until that day, I believe in abortion.

Why should you have to bring a child into this world when you have tried to do everything in your power to prevent pregnancy. (besides abstinence).

I do NOT support youngsters or anyone for that matter to treat abortion as a birth control and prevention should be the main focus...

But beyond that... I don't feel giving birth to a child when 1) you cannot afford it financially 2) it was unplanned due to birth control reasons 3) rape 4) not being in a steady committed marriage or relationship to give a child the support it deserves.

I wish we lived in a perfect world but unfortunitly shit happens and in the long run I think it's better to abort the child rather than bring it into the world when it cannot be offered the life it deserves.

And just to raise a point here... In my opinion animals cannot be compaired to human beings in this matter.. For example, when a Cat's offspring is touched too early after birth in the litter- the mother cat smells the human scent on it and will leave it to die and not nurse it.

Would a human do that? I'd hope not.

[greyhound]

I wish we lived in a perfect world but unfortunitly shit happens and in the long run I think it's better to abort the child rather than bring it into the world when it cannot be offered the life it deserves.

So, how about if that aborted child was YOU?

Hmmm?

You'd be mightly pissed off , I'm sure.

[ontariogal22]

So, how about if that aborted child was YOU?

Hmmm?

You'd be mightly pissed off , I'm sure.

To be perfectly honest, I would be more pissed off if I had to live a horrible life filled with a broken family, poor living conditions, a parent who wasn't ready for me to enter their lives, a mother who was raped by my father, AND/OR an irresponsible parent who was far too young mentally and emotionally to give me the life I deserve.

And, most importantly why would I want to be a burden on someone's life? That sure would make me feel special if I wasn't even "wanted" or I was just an "accident"...

I'm sure that would be a beautiful title for my baby book.

[RB]

Please ladies, lets fight for woman's rights with issues that have integrity and are valid.

Maybe you would really like to bring back the days of ol' when women were told they should not go to school, as it would interfere with their production of normal babies

It took a long time for women to move forward and legislate control of their bodies, and to have choices

I believe with open dialogue much more can be accomplish in discussions of how to separate procreation from sex

I truly wish there were more discussions on how to explore sexuality freely with all its potentials and pleasures rather than the other route of hammering away and trying to censor women and wanting to take away their rights.

[Cartman]

Sarcasm about here

I want to reopen the debate as to whether women should have the right to vote.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear RB,

I believe with open dialogue much more can be accomplish in discussions of how to separate procreation from sex

Condoms have been tried to separate procreation from sex, but they are not foolproof. Mind you, Bill Clinton tried to separate fellatio from sex. He tried to take issue with what 'sex' was defined as, and not even 'a wad of bills' could make Monica swallow that story!

[greyhound]

So, how about if that aborted child was YOU?

Hmmm?

You'd be mightly pissed off , I'm sure.

To be perfectly honest, I would be more pissed off if I had to live a horrible life filled with a broken family, poor living conditions, a parent who wasn't ready for me to enter their lives, a mother who was raped by my father, AND/OR an irresponsible parent who was far too young mentally and emotionally to give me the life I deserve.

And, most importantly why would I want to be a burden on someone's life? That sure would make me feel special if I wasn't even "wanted" or I was just an "accident"...

I'm sure that would be a beautiful title for my baby book.

What a spoiled brat you are!

If everyone felt like you do, over 90% of world's population would not exist today.

"Children begin by loving their parents; as they grow older they judge them; sometimes they forgive them." - Oscar Wilde

[ontariogal22]

What a spoiled brat you are!

If everyone felt like you do, over 90% of world's population would not exist today.

I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are.

I personally have NEVER had an abortion... I've done everything in my power to be responsible and prevent it from happening.

However, I see many young people today that are having children and I feel extremely horrible for those kids... They are raised poorly and I have seen them turn to alcohol, drugs, crime, etc.... all because of their poor upbringing.

Do you live in CandyLand or something? Are all the children running around happy and living in gingerbread houses???

In my areas I've seen some 'Slum' that poor children live in... I have even heard children themselves say they were they were dead... It breaks my heart...

[greyhound]

I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are.

Yes you are, ontariogal, and I'm happy for you.

How unfortunate that most of the world's female population can't make that claim.

Don't you wish they were never born?

[lowly_caterpillar]

AIGHT! Break it up you guys geeeez!

Lets not let this regress into a discussion on rights to opinions.

I wish we lived in a perfect world but unfortunitly shit happens and in the long run I think it's better to abort the child rather than bring it into the world when it cannot be offered the life it deserves.

I agree that this was worded rather carelessly. The clashing here seems to occur when we speak for the potential child, some of us see this child as a young naive defenseless baby, and some of us see it as a scarred child with and unremedied life, I'd like to drag you all back to earlier posts that suggested discussing this pragmatically. I choose to view the child not as a living breathing being but as an embryo with no sentient life. If you want to bring potential into this, you'd have to argue that letting a woman menstruate and letting people use birth conrol is just as bad as abortion, because the sperm and egg have more potential than an embryo.

(oh snap.)

[August1991]

How unfortunate that most of the world's female population can't make that claim.

Don't you wish they were never born?

Greyhound, how do you propose stopping women from having an abortion? How would you make it illegal? How would you ensure that the law is respected? Would you put a doctor in jail who conducted an abortion? A woman?

What would stop Canadian women from travelling to another country to have an abortion? Would you charge women who do this?

I ask you these questions because, if an act is legal, this does not mean that the act is moral. Our legal system is pragmatic. To some people, it may be immoral to get drunk and play cards on Sunday. In Canada, these activities are perfectly legal.

Making abortions illegal in Canada would arguably cause more harm and hardship than not making them illegal.

[ontariogal22]

I really dislike how "greyhound" seems to make it seem like those who aren't against abortion are just running around having abortions and killing unborn babies and don't even care.

I already said, I've NEVER had one.. nor do I hope to ever have one.

But if for some reason I was raped, or something else beyond my control happened, then I would definitely sit down and think my life out as to whether I could support my child.. If not, unfortunitely I would have an abortion.

It's not that humans are mean or immoral... I just think sometimes it is better to have an abortion if the child would be born into a bad lifestyle.

It's not something that humans are proud of I'm sure... It's an upsetting and emotional issue for everyone.

And I was not being selfish or a 'spoiled brat'... I put myself in the unborn child's shoes and I could honestly say that I would rather not be alive.

Not everyone may feel the same and that's fine.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear ontariogal22,

I really dislike how "greyhound" seems to make it seem like those who aren't against abortion are just running around having abortions and killing unborn babies and don't even care.

Here's a tip, but it isn't foolproof. Look at the poster's (like greyhound or MisterRogers) local user time. If it is x number of hours +1/2 an hour ahead, it is usually (but not always) a flame/troll poster with many aliases. Don't take these too seriously.

It is a pleasure to have as many 'realistic' perspectives on issues such as this as possible.

[greyhound]

Greyhound, how do you propose stopping women from having an abortion? How would you make it illegal? How would you ensure that the law is respected? Would you put a doctor in jail who conducted an abortion? A woman?

What would stop Canadian women from travelling to another country to have an abortion? Would you charge women who do this?

Where did I ever say that I'm against abortion?

All I said was that we humans are ugly for doing it, and also for making all kinds of inane excuses for why we are doing it.

And I put the blame on both sexes, not just women. Thus I would never ask questions like:

"How do you propose stopping 'women' from having an abortion? .... Would you put a 'woman' in jail? .... What whould stop Canadian 'women' from traveling to another country to have an abortion? ... Would you charge 'women' who do this?"