Donald vs Hillary

[kimmy]

1 hour ago, Derek 2.0 said:

In two years, thanks to to current cycle and happenstance, the majority of those up for reelection in the midterms are Democrats...............but in four years Trump will want to be reelected, a reelection that will require Trump keeping all those Reagan Democrats onside......voters that are largely middle of the road and not necessarily social conservatives.

My understanding is that in 2 years, the whole congress will be up for reelection. It seems that much like by-elections in Canada, American mid-term elections are often used to send a "message" to the President. It happened to Obama, it happened to Bush, it happened to Clinton...  Obama was awfully popular when he got elected, but in 2010 when people found they'd seen a lot less "Change" than they'd "Hoped" for, the congress flipped to the Republicans. In 2018, if people feel that America isn't as "Great" as Trump promised he'd make it, he might receive a similar "message" at the midterms.

His congressmen will be demanding some "wins".

1 hour ago, Derek 2.0 said:

 No it isn't.......already Trump has walked back locking Clinton up and completely tearing up Obamacare, more so now "fixing it".....I don't expect him to close the abortions clinics and run off the gays.....  

Ok, Trump said he'd protect gay people from getting shot by ISIS. He didn't say he'd protect their rights from Mike Pence. Speaking in general terms, I find that conservative people care a lot about gay people when they're threatened by Muslims, but not that much about gay people when they're threatened by Christians.

Trump has said pretty much everything at one point or another, but he's definitely promised Christian leaders that he'd overturn "Obergefell vs Hodges".

He also appointed this gay-hating Family Research Council goon to lead the "domestic policy" chairman of his transition team. That's not a very promising signal.

 -k

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

My understanding is that in 2 years, the whole congress will be up for reelection.

 

Nope...just the House and 33% of the Senate.   Congress = House of Reps + Senate

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...just the House and 33% of the Senate.   Congress = House of Reps + Senate

Whatever. 435 members of the House of Representatives will be up for reelection... and about 236 of them are going to be telling Trump they need some "wins" they can show their constituents.

 -k

[Derek 2.0]

17 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Many people argued the same thing in regard to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

 

Sure, and LBJ's Civil Rights Act divorced the Democrats from their then power base found within the majority of the Southern States.....and resulted in the Republicans winning 5 of the next 6 elections.......

 

24 minutes ago, kimmy said:

"States Rights" is a residuals kind of thing, where if it's not granted elsewhere the states can look after it.

 

And in the case of religion, it is granted enshrined. 

 

26 minutes ago, kimmy said:

The idea that having control of the legislature means that your views "reflect the people of your state" is pretty debatable.

 

26 minutes ago, kimmy said:

So grudgingly Pence tells his legislature to amend the legislation.

 

So the moral of the story.......Indiana's lawmakers ceded to the views of the people?

 

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

My understanding is that in 2 years, the whole congress will be up for reelection.

 

Congress yes, I was referring to the Senate ( 1/3rd of the Senate every 2 years)......as I said, unlike this recent election, most will be currently Democrats.....Congress itself should be considered a GOP given.

 

7 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Trump has said pretty much everything at one point or another,

 

Trump is a pitchfork populist, he'll say whatever's popular, to whomever.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, kimmy said:

Whatever. 435 members of the House of Representatives will be up for reelection... and about 236 of them are going to be telling Trump they need some "wins" they can show their constituents.

 

That's OK...the 2018 midterms map favours Republicans for the 34 Senate seats.   The Republicans already have a significant margin in the House, so losing some seats won't kill them.

I wonder where the idea of a 2016 GOP collapse ever came from....Canada ?

[Derek 2.0]

24 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

the 2018 midterms map favours Republicans for the 34 Senate seats.

Exactly:

 

Quote

 

The election two years from now had already looked difficult for Senate Democrats, who must defend 25 seats compared to just eight held by Republicans. The Democrats’ list includes two independents, Vermont’s Bernie Sanders and Maine’s Angus King, who align with them.

Of those 25 senators, 13 are from states Trump captured or narrowly lost. Among those are Maine, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, which hadn’t backed a GOP presidential candidate since the 1980s, leaving both parties trying to discern how much Tuesday may have reordered the lineup of blue, red and swing states.

Five Democrats are from states Trump easily carried, by 19 percentage points or more — Indiana, North Dakota, West Virginia, Missouri and Montana.

 

 

Which suggests that if the GOP makes inroads and attains even 1/3rd of those seats, if America isn't Great Again in 2020, they would still likely control the Senate and Congress.

[kimmy]

13 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Sure, and LBJ's Civil Rights Act divorced the Democrats from their then power base found within the majority of the Southern States.....and resulted in the Republicans winning 5 of the next 6 elections.......

Whether or not it was a winning political strategy, it was found to be constitutional, over and over again.

13 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

And in the case of religion, it is granted enshrined.

And so are other rights. So when rights come into conflict, there are tests like "undue burden".  For example, the fact that someone down the street may be using contraceptives is not actually a burden on Mr Santorum's ability to practice his faith.

13 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

So the moral of the story.......Indiana's lawmakers ceded to the views of the people?

 

Moral of the story is that their religious bigots law didn't actually reflect their whole state. It's great that it had a happy ending-- the part where Pence was furious is my favorite part-- but overall I think it's quite unfortunate that these guys caused so much strife and economic damage to their own capital city.

13 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Trump is a pitchfork populist, he'll say whatever's popular, to whomever.

Sure, and that includes making an inclusive-sounding speech at the RNC when he knows swing-voters will be watching.

Actions speak louder than words. Choosing a vitriolic gay-hater like Pence as his VP and a Family Research Council guy as his domestic policy transition team chairman are actions that send a pretty loud message about where he's going.

 -k

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Actions speak louder than words. Choosing a vitriolic gay-hater like Pence as his VP and a Family Research Council guy as his domestic policy transition team chairman are actions that send a pretty loud message about where he's going.

 

Hate speech is legal in the U.S., just ask Hillary Clinton.

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Whether or not it was a winning political strategy, it was found to be constitutional, over and over again.

And so are other rights. So when rights come into conflict, there are tests like "undue burden".  For example, the fact that someone down the street may be using contraceptives is not actually a burden on Mr Santorum's ability to practice his faith.

Moral of the story is that their religious bigots law didn't actually reflect their whole state. It's great that it had a happy ending-- the part where Pence was furious is my favorite part-- but overall I think it's quite unfortunate that these guys caused so much strife and economic damage to their own capital city.

Sure, and that includes making an inclusive-sounding speech at the RNC when he knows swing-voters will be watching.

Actions speak louder than words. Choosing a vitriolic gay-hater like Pence as his VP and a Family Research Council guy as his domestic policy transition team chairman are actions that send a pretty loud message about where he's going.

 -k

 

Much better to become Saudi Arabia's beeatch.

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Hate speech is legal in the U.S., just ask Hillary Clinton.

No problem. But Derek here is trying to convince me that Trump is actually a cool guy who is super-friendly with the gays, and Pence and the FRC guy are pretty clear hints that that's not the case.

 -k

[Smallc]

Didn't you hear Kimmy?

 

Gay is the new black.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, kimmy said:

No problem. But Derek here is trying to convince me that Trump is actually a cool guy who is super-friendly with the gays, and Pence and the FRC guy are pretty clear hints that that's not the case.

 

He is right...any attempt to stereotype Trump or Pence to suit your bias and perceptions won't work.   Trump's win is far more complex than that.

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Much better to become Saudi Arabia's beeatch.

Yeah, your idea that Hillary is actually a dhimmi plant who was going to bring in American Sharia is one of the most nuts ideas I've heard during the whole election cycle.

 -k

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, kimmy said:

Yeah, your idea that Hillary is actually a dhimmi plant who was going to bring in American Sharia is one of the most nuts ideas I've heard during the whole election cycle.

 -k

 

Follow the money.

[Derek 2.0]

Just now, kimmy said:

Whether or not it was a winning political strategy, it was found to be constitutional, over and over again.

 

Exactly.......like abortion rights and marriage equality over the last several decades.

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

For example, the fact that someone down the street may be using contraceptives is not actually a burden on Mr Santorum's ability to practice his faith.

 

Inversely, a Christian baker or Islamic hairdresser could be made to feel a burden in practicing their religions if forced, through legal action, to serve a gay couple.

5 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Moral of the story is that their religious bigots law didn't actually reflect their whole state.

 

And said law didn't see the light of day as originally written.......reflecting the views of most of the population.

6 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Sure, and that includes making an inclusive-sounding speech at the RNC when he knows swing-voters will be watching.

 

That could be the case, or in reality Trump might not actually have a hate on for gay people..........my point in showing the clip though was more so the reaction of the crowd.

 

8 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Actions speak louder than words.

 

I'll stop you right there.........I'll wait for the legislation that bans gay people and abortion.

[Derek 2.0]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

But Derek here is trying to convince me that Trump is actually a cool guy who is super-friendly with the gays,

 

No, not at all, I've no doubt that certain groups will be fed, what will seem to them, shit sandwiches......that's only natural, after nearly a decade of them feeding the like to the groups now in power......payback is a bitch.

 

-But- 

 

I don't think it will be anywhere as bad as what many, including you, are suggesting.

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump's win is far more complex than that.

 

My thoughts exactly.......its a Reagan-like, big tent, win, that wasn't stressed tested with higher voter turnout.....The key, already, is to win reelection with what I will assume to be a far more engaged voter pool in 2020......he won't do that by pissing off the independents, moderates and blue-dog Reagan Democrats that got him elected.

[Smallc]

11 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Follow the money.

Provide some actual proof before people waste their time.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Smallc said:

Provide some actual proof before people waste their time.

 

Hillary took money from Saudi Arabia...this is public knowledge.

Edited November 13, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Smallc]

Oh wow, it's sealed then.

[DogOnPorch]

Just because you live in the Hill-Bubble...

[Smallc]

Uhh, everyone knows that already.  

The other part is crazy town.

[DogOnPorch]

As mentioned....then....Hillary was going to be Saudi Arabia's lap dog. Good thing she lost.

I feel for your pain, though. Robert McNamara did say to feel empathy towards the fallen foe.

[kimmy]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

He is right...any attempt to stereotype Trump or Pence to suit your bias and perceptions won't work.   Trump's win is far more complex than that.

Pence's record on the subject is clear, and goes back far longer than his failed "RFRA" act.

The only thing clear from Trump's record is that he wants to be the "star".  If his economic policies haven't made him a star by the time the midterms roll around, he's going to do something else to be a star. Throwing some red meat social conservatism on the table would keep his "fans" happy for a while.

 

2 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

That could be the case, or in reality Trump might not actually have a hate on for gay people..........my point in showing the clip though was more so the reaction of the crowd.

The reaction of the crowd... uh, weren't they chanting "Trump The Bitch"?  I honestly thought that was what they were saying. Anyway, it's nice that they cheered him for saying that. Maybe the convention delegates were on board, but the party platform committee still brought forward what was called by gay Republicans "the most anti-gay platform in party history".

Trump himself might not hate gay people at all. But he's surrounded by people who do.  If things go bad, I have no doubt he'd throw gay people overboard to keep the SS Trump afloat. That's his main focus.  You say he needs to avoid offending the "Reagan Democrats" and swing voters and so-on, but on the other hand he also got the support of the evangelicals, who had grave misgivings about his personal life and his character but supported him anyway, because they expect action on abortion and traditional marriage.  They only got on board the Trumpwagon because they expect him to keep his commitment to their social conservative goals.

We'll see how this turns out.

 -k

[bush_cheney2004]

Brilliant:  "Classes being canceled is why Trump won." - Katherine Clare "Kat" Timpf

Comedians and speakers welcome the return of freedom to say and think whatever the hell they want on campuses.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

We'll see how this turns out.
 

 

Thank you, as if there was any other option.   The voters have voted.    Change is good.   

Crying progressives is better...it's what they do best.

Edited November 13, 2016 by bush_cheney2004